On Figurative Ledge - Talk Me Down?

[Scott33]

Denver...

First thanks for responding to my thread. I read that before I read this, your new post. How awful and odd that we woke up in the exact same place today. And even stranger that your story is almost identical to mine. I understand EXACTLY how you feel and you helped clarify it for me. It's like the wounded helping the wounded, but here are my thoughts if they help...

I understand the whole EA thing turning to PA right after the spouse moves out. I wonder if it was an A all the time as my H tells me it is "just a friend" any time it is mentioned, though other friends confirm it has gone PA. Here's what I have come to and why I think you are confused like me - In our spouses minds they never had an A. They are actually being "honest" with us and themselves in their world what I now call "Crazy Town." They justified the supportive friend as exactly that and could not recognize that there is even such a thing as an EA. The OM/OW was their strength to exit our lives, as they probably could not have done it on their own, but they don't see that. Then minutes after leaving, it went PA. Again, in their minds they never cheated on us. Now they are physically gone and "single" so that's how they rationalize any guilt they may feel. But why are we confused? Because to us, an EA is in many ways worse than a PA. It's sharing intimacy, and it started well before they physically left. It hurts more that they were sharing the deepest parts of their soul - dreams, hurts, wishes, etc. - with someone other than us. And we try to blame ourselves and relieve them of responsibility. Still I bet you obsess and picture them together now don't you? It drives me crazy, and makes me physically ill. How do I cope with that? I try to look at the glass half full - Best diet ever. Lost that pesky 20 pounds even without getting on my elliptical. And you know what, I look freakin hot now, and about 10 years younger. I would date me.

I know, if only I can maintain that thought. That's the trick, but get a mantra - something you repeat to yourself inside when you need strength. I also tell myself that I will never look back on these days and say to myself (and no one else will be able to say) that I was only ever kind, understanding, and supportive to my spouse. Never hateful, never blaming when I talk to others. I rose above it and was a better person for it. I will always be proud I had the strength to love, even in the face of pain. And I will always know I was honest with myself and my spouse about my feelings. You can not truly love someone for 22 years like I did, and suddenly truly hate them the next day. Ironic that it feels like that is exactly what they did to us, I know. Try to let it go and make this about you.

The other major issue for you is exactly the same for me too - do you set boundaries, or just continue LRT and practice patience. Although many tell us to set boundaries, I completely understand that your biggest fear is that if you play that card, it feels like all or nothing. If our spouses choose the OM then the jig's up and we have to confront our future alone. In our hearts we probably are too afraid to pull that trigger and risk the answer because our hearts have not let go, and even small glimmers of hope keep us going. Do you ever say to yourself "But if I let go, then did I ever really love them?" And it keeps you in the same place because you don't want to be the one who "let go." It hurts to love someone who is hurting you. Yet, as we practice the LRT it feels as if nothing is happening and what we wouldn't give to be inside the spouse's head sometimes, just to know for certain...is there hope? Do they still feel love for us? Are they confused and will eventually find their way back? Are they waiting for us to call it quits so they don't have to feel any more guilt? But we can not know any of these things, and that's exactly what is killing us. So we imagine pulling the trigger like friends and family say, but quietly we wait and hurt.

So where are we today? We both woke up sad and confused. We've read the books, we've talked to friends, we've posted here. So much of the advice is right, but at the end of the day you know it is only you walking in your shoes. You crave clear direction but know that you can only give it to yourself.

All I know for sure is this:

1. Regardless of the outcome, we must focus on ourselves. If the spouse returns we will be better people at that point - four ourselves first and for them second. If they don't come back, at least we have our feet on the road to recovery.

2. I worry that I am damaged and can never love again and that spouse will always have been the "one." I fear loneliness. I have gone out for drinks once (on New Year's eve) with someone I met at a support group. I made myself. I got hit on 3 times. It was nice in the moment but I came home and cried. Now I try to use that to remind myself that even though I can not picture another person in my life now, or maybe even ever, I am NOT doomed to be alone unless I choose it for myself. I was NOT the complete reason my spouse left even IF I have things I can improve upon. I am NOT garbage put to the side of the curb. And I get how you feel W is "disrespecting" you by carrying on A. Even though they are gone, you feel like they are cheating on you now, and wonder how someone who loved you and that you loved can do that. It's like stabbing us over and over and you wonder who the hell that person is. They are like a stranger to us, and no amount of logic can explain it in a way that helps us understand so that we feel emotionally healthy enough to move on.

3. Knowing that you can not "make" your W do the things you so desperately want them to do is frustrating, confusing, and depressing. You wonder if anything you are doing is right. You beat yourself up for not having the strength to really move on. And it kills you that it seemed so easy for them to have moved on. I bet you have googled the statistics about how many of those spouses return, just like me. Looking for a reason to have hope. I have come to the conclusion that you can allow yourself to always have hope, but it can not be all consuming. Focusing on yourself does not mean that you have "thrown in the towel." Accept that you have "hope" but also have "hope" that you can be complete and happy on your own. Know that at the end of the day we will both eventually pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and life will go on. It's like the line from the movie..."That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger"

4. In a strange way, we must believe in fate. That's the only way I can explain that I have happened upon you and your story, and it so frighteningly mirrors mine in detail and it's happening right now. The only explanation is that we may derive strength from each other. And the way that we may believe in fate will give us the strength to let go. Our spouses must be free to find themselves and let the A run it's course. I do know I would never want my H back because he felt like I "manipulated" or "guilted" him into it. Let's face it, if our spouses don't return to us with open and honest hearts, and if they are not new enlightened people like we are becoming, it could never be good or truly happy. Who would want that? And if we really have loved them all these many years, we must let the road take us where it leads, even if we feel lost. It may feel like we are doing "nothing," but by employing LRT, we are healing ourselves. If it impacts the spouse in a positive way, then that remains to be seen.

5. Patience is difficult. It feels like you are doing nothing and have no control. I try to remind myself that my life is not happening TO me. I am free to choose my actions and how to spend the hours of my day. If I spend it obsessing about H, he is controlling me. Not fair. We are both getting close to the stage of anger/revenge as I see it. Little moments where you wish karma to "get even" with your spouse. Or worse, you fantasize about how to get the OM/OW out of the picture altogether. Maybe fate deals them their comeuppance and a greyhound bus inadvertently runs them down as they cross the street. Horrible, I know, but I've been there. Of course, all you get from those thoughts is a feeling of guilt. But the anger is starting to boil under the surface. Let it out to people you trust. They will not judge, and you will feel a little better.

I can only guess by your username "Denver" that you are nowhere near me. Sadly, I could see us having a drink together and sharing some strength in those weak moments. Thanks for being their for me on my thread. I hope I have helped you today. It has helped me refocus by sharing with you.

[Ruikee]

Denver/Scott,
I am sorry you are both going throught, i know one thing, I feel the same way at times. The last time we seperated, she sent the LS papers, i battled with signing them, then i did, shortly after that, we reconciled. Now im at that same juncture. Nothing has been filed but she knows i have been to see a lawyer. This morning she shows up at the house unannounced, saying she needed her journals. only 3 months later. She had texted me yesterday to ask how the baby was and if i can bring him home by 5. I told her a while ago that i would contact her if i had a problem with the baby, and i know what time i need to have him back by. I didnt think a response was necessary. Said she called my phone but no record of it there.
Anyhow, its really up to you, you have to make the decision of saving the M or moving on. Once you do that things will fall where they may. I battle with it all the time. 3 months seperated as of yesterday. What i deal with most is living in this big house by myself with all the memories etc. I wish i could just move out and start something else. All my friends are married, so thats why its tough at times for me to GAL. I find myself at the local sports bar just hanging out.....grabbing a bite to eat. I dont drink..... Just hang in there.....what does that mean exactly......never understood that one....

[sandi2]

I do know that I feel like a schmuck the past couple of days that I am just sitting here patiently waiting while W just does whatever it is she's doing!

I don't think you have much patient, Denver, b/c I was responding to your old thread and you started a new one b/c you didn't think the other was getting enough attention.

Anyway, one of your problems is that you are sitting there waiting for her while she's doing whatever. As a man, you feel that you must do something to fix this.

You are hearing different schools of thought and doubting your process. I understand that. I have had a change of mind while I've been on the boards too. I still see each stitch as separate issues and how they should be dealt. I'm not totally divorced from the hard line school, but here is what I've tried to take into account just the past couple of months. You can give her the ultimatum of choosing you or OM, but you better be ready to get divorced b/c that's what happens in most cases. You can keep your pride or self-respect in tact....but lose your M.

OTOH, you can take your focus off of her and realize that she has separated from you and thinks you have no say in what she does. So, you can go dark, drop the rope and live your life as if she's not coming back. I'm not saying to file for D, just live your life. If you do this, there is a chance the A will die and she'll see your changes and want to go back and work on the M. In this case, you have your new changes and a new shot at a new R with your W.

So, I'm not telling you which way you need to go, but I can almost guarantee what will happen if you give her an ultimatum. Yes, an A is the ultimate disrespect. I also believe that a woman has to respect her H before she can have loving feelings toward him. Right now, your W is too confused to know what she feels. How long did you disrespect her by continuing your excluded friendships? Not accusing, just saying that you need to look at this both ways.

[Denver_2010]

Zeng and HRT - Thanks for your thoughts and support.

You are right HRT, I haven't completely detached. I have been better in the past week to 10 days, but this weekend was a set back. I guess that can be expected. It also doesn't help that I have been stuck in my empty, lonely house with a horrible cold all weekend.

Zeng - Thanks for all of the advice. Actually, up until this weekend, I have been doing pretty much everything on your list except get a new job (bc I own my own biz) and volunteer. All of that is GREAT advice for anyone reading this thread. Anyway, did buy new clothes, going out with friends, working on new hair style (hair too short right now). I know that everything in your post is 100% true. Just a bad weekend. Thanks again for the pep talk!

[Denver_2010]

Denver.

I don't know a lot about the process or the complete ins and outs of your R. But I do know one thing. And I think everyone agrees. You simply cannot expect to work on your R or have your W want to think about working on the M while the OM is front and center and still new and exciting. Of course the two paths diverge. Let the W have her OM time so it will possibly take a natural course and burnout OR set boundaries to get the OM out of the picture (some use a variety of tatics including exposure). I'm a firm believer in the harder line approach. Set boundaries.
How this takes into account me, my W and our R/situation. Only you know best each of those.
People can tell you what they'd do but ultimately it's your decision and you live with the consequences.

Harrier - That is exactly the struggle that I have been going through this weekend. I have been feeling that I am a doormat right now. You are also right that I have to make the choice that best fits my sitch. After thinking about it all weekend, I have decided to continue with the patiently wait approach.

I know that I want to stand for my M. I know that I want to stand for my M vows. This is the choice that I am making for me. I also know that taking the hard line approach would be "friendly fire" to my M and self defeating to my M vows. I vowed to love my W through better and worse, through good and bad... this is the worse and the bad. As TrueGritter said in one of his posts, I did made these vows until death we part, not until W gets scared and runs away. That is my choice... for me. This choice does NOT make me a doormat.

Just a little journaling their Harrier Thanks for your support man.

[dbmod]

I love your analogy. I'm going to use it, because that's exactly what it is in most cases.

You're doing the right thing and you're right, it does NOT make you a doormat.

[Denver_2010]

How awful and odd that we woke up in the exact same place today. And even stranger that your story is almost identical to mine. I understand EXACTLY how you feel and you helped clarify it for me. It's like the wounded helping the wounded, but here are my thoughts if they help...

I understand the whole EA thing turning to PA right after the spouse moves out. I wonder if it was an A all the time as my H tells me it is "just a friend" any time it is mentioned, though other friends confirm it has gone PA. Here's what I have come to and why I think you are confused like me - In our spouses minds they never had an A. They are actually being "honest" with us and themselves in their world what I now call "Crazy Town." They justified the supportive friend as exactly that and could not recognize that there is even such a thing as an EA. The OM/OW was their strength to exit our lives, as they probably could not have done it on their own, but they don't see that. Then minutes after leaving, it went PA. Again, in their minds they never cheated on us. Now they are physically gone and "single" so that's how they rationalize any guilt they may feel. But why are we confused? Because to us, an EA is in many ways worse than a PA. It's sharing intimacy, and it started well before they physically left. It hurts more that they were sharing the deepest parts of their soul - dreams, hurts, wishes, etc. - with someone other than us. And we try to blame ourselves and relieve them of responsibility. Still I bet you obsess and picture them together now don't you? It drives me crazy, and makes me physically ill. How do I cope with that? I try to look at the glass half full - Best diet ever.

Dead on Scott. You hit the nail on the head in every respect. Thanks for you very thoughtful reply.

The other major issue for you is exactly the same for me too - do you set boundaries, or just continue LRT and practice patience. Although many tell us to set boundaries, I completely understand that your biggest fear is that if you play that card, it feels like all or nothing.

Do you ever say to yourself "But if I let go, then did I ever really love them?" And it keeps you in the same place because you don't want to be the one who "let go." It hurts to love someone who is hurting you. Yet, as we practice the LRT it feels as if nothing is happening and what we wouldn't give to be inside the spouse's head sometimes, just to know for certain...is there hope? Do they still feel love for us? Are they confused and will eventually find their way back? Are they waiting for us to call it quits so they don't have to feel any more guilt? But we can not know any of these things, and that's exactly what is killing us. So we imagine pulling the trigger like friends and family say, but quietly we wait and hurt.

So where are we today? We both woke up sad and confused. We've read the books, we've talked to friends, we've posted here. So much of the advice is right, but at the end of the day you know it is only you walking in your shoes. You crave clear direction but know that you can only give it to yourself.

This is why DBing is so hard I suppose. I have read on here so many times that the keys are PATIENCE and TIME. I have been cutting and pasting to a running journal the posts that I think have good advice that is also practical to my situation. I try to review that journal, now over 50 pages long, every few days to give myself strength. It does help and I suggest you do the same.

1. Regardless of the outcome, we must focus on ourselves. If the spouse returns we will be better people at that point - four ourselves first and for them second. If they don't come back, at least we have our feet on the road to recovery.

You are right Scott. But it also a chance to improve ourselves. Find out where we messed up in M, acknowledge those issues, and fix them. To not only come out of this okay with or without our S, but to come out of it as better people.

2. I worry that I am damaged and can never love again and that spouse will always have been the "one." I fear loneliness. I am NOT doomed to be alone unless I choose it for myself. I was NOT the complete reason my spouse left even IF I have things I can improve upon. I am NOT garbage put to the side of the curb. And I get how you feel W is "disrespecting" you by carrying on A. Even though they are gone, you feel like they are cheating on you now, and wonder how someone who loved you and that you loved can do that. It's like stabbing us over and over and you wonder who the hell that person is. They are like a stranger to us, and no amount of logic can explain it in a way that helps us understand so that we feel emotionally healthy enough to move on.

This is why we have to detach from our S Scott. We both need to do this. It does get easier with time though. But, as my weekend has demonstrated, there are going to be bumps in the road along the way.

I also struggled with blaming myself 100% for failure in M and W leaving. I have been working on that, and now know that we both contributed. I still struggle at times though bc it is so hard to accept that I could have made wiser choices that could have prevented situation from getting to this stage, yet I didn't. But I can't change the past. I can only learn from it and apply it to bettering my future. And yes, I will have future love... with or without W. I will be better prepared for it too. As will you Scott.

3. Knowing that you can not "make" your W do the things you so desperately want them to do is frustrating, confusing, and depressing. You wonder if anything you are doing is right. You beat yourself up for not having the strength to really move on. And it kills you that it seemed so easy for them to have moved on. I bet you have googled the statistics about how many of those spouses return, just like me. Looking for a reason to have hope. I have come to the conclusion that you can allow yourself to always have hope, but it can not be all consuming. Focusing on yourself does not mean that you have "thrown in the towel." Accept that you have "hope" but also have "hope" that you can be complete and happy on your own. Know that at the end of the day we will both eventually pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and life will go on. It's like the line from the movie..."That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger"

Absolutely... These are good words Scott. Put them in a journal somewhere so that you can refer back to them when those times of feeling weak come.

4. In a strange way, we must believe in fate. That's the only way I can explain that I have happened upon you and your story, and it so frighteningly mirrors mine in detail and it's happening right now. The only explanation is that we may derive strength from each other. And the way that we may believe in fate will give us the strength to let go. Our spouses must be free to find themselves and let the A run it's course. I do know I would never want my H back because he felt like I "manipulated" or "guilted" him into it. Let's face it, if our spouses don't return to us with open and honest hearts, and if they are not new enlightened people like we are becoming, it could never be good or truly happy. Who would want that? And if we really have loved them all these many years, we must let the road take us where it leads, even if we feel lost. It may feel like we are doing "nothing," but by employing LRT, we are healing ourselves. If it impacts the spouse in a positive way, then that remains to be seen.

Again, exactly right. I have also been working at turning my sitch over to fate or whatever higher power exists out there. I have not been much of a godly person in the past. In fact, I have always described myself as agnostic with slight leaning toward athieism. But as I've described to others, this event in my life has almost been like a near death experience for me. It is causing me to revisit my views on god and fate. I have actually been going to church with my FIL for the past 2 months. I started going mainly bc I needed to feel something positive bc I was so much in a depth of despair and misery that I couldn't stand it. But as I've been going, I have started to doubt my lack of faith. I know that this sounds weird, but it is true. There is something good, true, and comforting about putting your destiny in the hands of a higher power. I'm not completely there yet, but it is something that I am working towards.

5. Patience is difficult. It feels like you are doing nothing and have no control. I try to remind myself that my life is not happening TO me. I am free to choose my actions and how to spend the hours of my day. If I spend it obsessing about H, he is controlling me. Not fair. We are both getting close to the stage of anger/revenge as I see it. Little moments where you wish karma to "get even" with your spouse. Or worse, you fantasize about how to get the OM/OW out of the picture altogether. Maybe fate deals them their comeuppance and a greyhound bus inadvertently runs them down as they cross the street. Horrible, I know, but I've been there. Of course, all you get from those thoughts is a feeling of guilt. But the anger is starting to boil under the surface. Let it out to people you trust. They will not judge, and you will feel a little better.

I understand how your anger may be boiling up Scott. Also understand how you want to let it out to others. This is something that I choose to keep to myself though. Why? Bc of what you said, it gets us no where and serves no purpose. Instead, when I feel that, I TRY to focus on the love that I have for my W. I don't want to 'defend' my W's actions, but I also do not want to disparage her. I am standing for my M right now. That is MY choice. In doing that, I feel that i am also standing for my W and the hurt that she is also experiencing.

Do you have unconditional love for your H Scott? Something to consider. The answer that I came to is that I DO love my W unconditionally. Isn't this what true love is? Can I love my W without the expectation of something in return. It is a difficult concept. But if I come out of this with a better understanding what true love is for me, then I come out of it a better person. And I will know how to better show this love to my W or someone else if I am lucky enough to have it for someone else.

I can only guess by your username "Denver" that you are nowhere near me. Sadly, I could see us having a drink together and sharing some strength in those weak moments. Thanks for being their for me on my thread. I hope I have helped you today. It has helped me refocus by sharing with you.

Good Scott. This is what this forum is all about. I think that everyone here truly cares about each other's situations. There are many 'vets' who do not have active situations. Yet they spend time reading our thread and giving advice to us who are actively experiencing hurt and despair. I cannot say enough about the respect I have for these people. I would name them, but would then feel badly for leaving some out. I hope to someday be able to do the same for someone else.

Yes Scott. It would be great to be able to meet up and have our own personal support group. I will follow your sitch though and offer my thoughts as they come.

Stay strong, patient, and focused on the goals at hand Scott. Things will be better in TIME. The only way through this... is through it.

[Denver_2010]

I love your analogy. I'm going to use it, because that's exactly what it is in most cases.

You're doing the right thing and you're right, it does NOT make you a doormat.

Thanks DMOD. I'm trying here... really just a bad weekend.

[Denver_2010]

I don't think you have much patient, Denver, b/c I was responding to your old thread and you started a new one b/c you didn't think the other was getting enough attention.

LOL... Absolutely right Sandi... Patience is something I am working on.

Anyway, one of your problems is that you are sitting there waiting for her while she's doing whatever. As a man, you feel that you must do something to fix this.

Yep. Not only bc I am a man, but bc I feel so responsible for it happening in the first place. I am also working on accepting that I cannot change the past. Needless to say, it is hard. I was not a good H to my W. That is hard to accept. I do not handle failure well and haven't experienced a whole lot of it in my life except with my personal relationships. Why? Bc they have NEVER been my number one priority. I always thought that they were, but work with IC and self reflection over past 2 months has allowed me to see how career has always been my first priority. My words were "W and SS are my #1 priority in life" and that's what I believed. My actions showed otherwise. Actions speak louder than words.

I also thought that I was showing W and SS that they were my #1 priority in life by making sure that our family was financially secure and by making sure that they had the best 'stuff' in life. Unfortunately, this led me to where I am now. I definitely need/needed to reexamine my beliefs on priorities in life.

Your statement that I am just sitting here waiting is also true to some degree. I really have been working on GAL and doing 180s. But I also haven't let go of my worry and thoughts of what W is doing. And if I am being truthful, I haven't let go of the thought that my life is empty and my actions are meaningless until W and SS return. I know that I need to let this go. I wish it were as easy to do as it is to write down here.

You are hearing different schools of thought and doubting your process. I understand that. I have had a change of mind while I've been on the boards too. I still see each stitch as separate issues and how they should be dealt. I'm not totally divorced from the hard line school, but here is what I've tried to take into account just the past couple of months. You can give her the ultimatum of choosing you or OM, but you better be ready to get divorced b/c that's what happens in most cases. You can keep your pride or self-respect in tact....but lose your M.

This is where my situation is Sandi. I actually have no idea where my W is in R with OM. I am assuming the worst and hoping for the best. And truth be told, I would still be VERY surprised if it has progressed to PA or R bw them. I know others are laughing at that last statement, but I know my W very well. It would be SO against her principles that it would still surprise me. On the other hand, I know that I have inflicted some serious wounds to my W over the years and especially the past 10 months. These wounds have caused her to doubt her faith in me and our M. They very well may also cause her to doubt her own principles. And, either way, she is, IMO, not thinking rationally. The bottom line is that I simply don't know what is going on. And I'm afraid to know... I'm afraid to face myself and the choice I may have re my ability to forgive her for what may be going on. There is lots of "assuming" going on in my head right now. I need to get rid of it!

OTOH, you can take your focus off of her and realize that she has separated from you and thinks you have no say in what she does. So, you can go dark, drop the rope and live your life as if she's not coming back. I'm not saying to file for D, just live your life. If you do this, there is a chance the A will die and she'll see your changes and want to go back and work on the M. In this case, you have your new changes and a new shot at a new R with your W.

This is my choice Sandi. It is harder at times than others though. I wish I could get rid of the self doubt that I feel at times (like the past 48 hours).

So, I'm not telling you which way you need to go, but I can almost guarantee what will happen if you give her an ultimatum. Yes, an A is the ultimate disrespect. I also believe that a woman has to respect her H before she can have loving feelings toward him. Right now, your W is too confused to know what she feels. How long did you disrespect her by continuing your excluded friendships? Not accusing, just saying that you need to look at this both ways.

I agree, she is confused. Despite her insistence that she is 'done', I really do feel that W is unsure of her choices right now.

I also agree with you that I disrespected W and our M for a long time. And I know that you are not accusing... you are being truthful and upfront with me. This is what I need.

The one question that I have from your post is this, can my W respect me when I am NOT taking the hard line approach re OM? When I just don't say anything about it at all? I'm pretty sure she knows that I don't approve just from how I initially reacted. And I know that W knows that it would hurt me tremendously if I knew PA or R is occurring. Just to clarify, I do not approve of EA which I know either occurred or is actively occurring. But W did not see it as A so she may not be thinking in those terms.

[Truegritter]

I have been feeling that I am a doormat right now.

You are a doormat as long as you believe you are a doormat.

You are a doormat if you let someone elses choices dictate what you believe and choose.

You will always be beholden to someone if you let them wipe their boots on you.

What does that mean?

If you feel your W's choices define you. What you do because of those choices, regardless of your own will, honor and self...

If you react to her choices out of anger or any other emotion that is not part of yourself... that destroys yourself.

THEN you are a doormat.

AND

You will carry that into your next relationship. Whether that is with your W or not.

There is no better time than now Denver. To see and understand what kind of man you want to be.

Your choices define you. No one elses.