Darker days ahead

[25yearsmlc]

25, before i reply .. did you read my original (huge) thread? i just wanted to know before i give a big reply.

D.

Read your earliest posts in March of this year, then off and on to now. Is there more or were there more before March?

[25yearsmlc]

D4,

Try saying what you think your h would claim was wrong in the M, then whether you agreed with any of it, and what you are doing about that and about GAL. What 180's are you practicing, if any? How are you different now than before? What do you want from this day forward, for your life?
j-

[DumpedforMIL]

Try saying what you think your h would claim was wrong in the M, then whether you agreed with any of it, and what you are doing about that and about GAL.

1. spending differences. i'm a saver, he's a lavish spender. i don't dictate how he spends his money but i would speak up if i felt it was going overboard. he would redecorate the entire house when his parents were about to visit us. every piece of furniture wasn't about us decorating OUR home. he admitted that he tried to make the house look nice for his parents. my money went towards things like bills, food, retirement contributions, and activities. so in the end, it looks like i didn't buy anything - i couldn't point to something and say "i bought that". that's how he ended up walking away with everything. and i walked away with an empty bag.

he once came to me and asked me to borrow a large sum of money from our emergency fund (my account). this was for his retirement contribution. i declined stating that it wasn't an emergency. he knew he had to do this yet did not budget for it. it is called responsibility. i do not enable financial irresponsibility. i had a boundary and i enforced it.

in the end, it was the smartest move i made. because if i gave him that money and he asked for the d, i wouldn't have gotten that money back from him.

have i done anything to change this? i have purchased some new clothes, but i had to set up my own apartment and i needed the basics - plates, bowls, cutlery, glasses, mugs, etc. yes, i didn't get any of that when we moved.

i bought a nice tv and a nice mini oven - stuff i will use and keep long term. i prefer to invest money in long term pieces.

i eat healthy, i learn to spend my money on important things and i cut out any nice-to-haves. i'm disciplined that way.

2. he felt that he was dragging me through his life. when he was growing up, his mother would arrange summer camps and activities for him. he never had to think about what to do. somebody always did it for him. when we got married, i did that for us. he didn't bring anything to our marriage that was for 'us'. i don't understand how he was dragging me through his life. i often put my own needs aside to put a sock in his mouth to stop the whining.

have i done anything to change this?
- took a baking class
- joined a squash league
- joined the local chapter of toastmasters
- bought a home.
- looking forward to skiing for the first time this winter.

3. religion. i don't involve him in my religious practices. my religious practice takes 2 minutes twice a month. you barely even notice that i practice it. but when his parents arrive, he tells me to stop my religious practice because his parents wouldn't understand. i don't mutilate small animals. my practice involves lighting a candle and saying a 30 sec prayer. is that so odd? i should be free to practice my simple religion in my own home, no? i would be happy to answer questions regarding my practice if they ask but if they don't ask, then i assume it doesn't matter to them either way.

i've relaxed on my religion since.

4. intimacy. he claims it was neither a passion or priority of mine. i have to admit. when he treats me like crap, i don't want to be intimate with him. call it another boundary of mine. the thing is .. all i wanted was to feel close and intimate with my h. i loved him from day 1 and i still do. but i can't bring myself to engage in something that is so personal, emotional, and intimate with someone who just paid me the biggest insult (telling me that i wouldn't make a good mother). for me, intimacy is reserved for someone who i feel loves me.

have i done anything about this? not sure how one can prove this. i don't date around .. nor do i sleep around. but that doesn't stop me from buying nice underwear. i'm not wearing it for anybody but it makes me feel sexy .. that counts, right?

there was a fifth excuse but i don't remember what that was anymore.

What 180's are you practicing, if any?

i only realize recently what 180s are about. all along, i thought it was just about doing the opposite of things. but it's not. it's about thinking outside the box and doing something really different. still working on this.

How are you different now than before?

i'm a very angry person right now. i hope to change this.
i want to be a happier person. i think i've grown intellectually as a person .. it's weird to have so much free time now. i realize now how much of my time was consumed by my h. i got to learn new things.

What do you want from this day forward, for your life?

to be financially independent. i never want to be with another person again because usually people take more than they give to me. i just want some sense of security and it's not something that men are capable of providing. we live in a world that is ruled by hollywood celebrities. it's okay to cut and run when marriage is too hard. if i knew my h would cut and run, i wouldn't have married him. i took a risk and i'm paying for it in many ways.

[25yearsmlc]

Try saying what you think your h would claim was wrong in the M, then whether you agreed with any of it, and what you are doing about that and about GAL.

1. spending differences. i'm a saver, he's a lavish spender.

Total judgementalsim here. Do you know what I mean by that?


i don't dictate how he spends his money but i would speak up if i felt it was going overboard.

Calling it "lavish" means you judged most of it and my guess is your disapproval was clear. What could you two do together to meet HIS needs for a beautiful home and your need for financial security? That is a very common challenge for married couples. It's called balance and requires compromise. Perhaps that would have been a 180.

he would redecorate the entire house when his parents were about to visit us. every piece of furniture wasn't about us decorating OUR home.
You two did not discuss any of this together? I think shopping together for furniture you both like would have been such a loving opportunity for bonding and pride in the home. Just one way to look at it.

he admitted that he tried to make the house look nice for his parents.

Is there something wrong with that? I don't get why your money wasn't combined. You say YOUR money went to bills, as if to say his would not have? Really? He'd have charged it all on a credit card and not paid it off or there'd be no food or electricity if it werent' for your money? I don't know couples married for years who have their money so clearly separated and defined, as if there's an expectation that one would leave the other.

my money went towards things like bills, food, retirement contributions, and activities. so in the end, it looks like i didn't buy anything - i couldn't point to something and say "i bought that". that's how he ended up walking away with everything. and i walked away with an empty bag.

By your own description, your money did not go to anything but utilities and retirement. Had your resources been combined, maybe you'd have some furniture.

he once came to me and asked me to borrow a large sum of money from our emergency fund (my account). this was for his retirement contribution. i declined stating that it wasn't an emergency. he knew he had to do this yet did not budget for it. it is called responsibility. i do not enable financial irresponsibility. i had a boundary and i enforced it.

I have a 2 x 4 for you and hey, you are free to ignore it...Put a helmet on. Um you don't see how very "parental" this was of you? Or how punitive of you? Don't you realize how what it must have taken for him to come to you to ASK his own wife for HER money so HE can put some in a retirement account? And how wounded his pride must have been when you "spanked" him for disobeying your rules. Gee, You sure showed him.

And couldn't he say HE provided a lovely home for you both that ONLY HE created, b/c you were too selfish or stingy or financially paranoid/ to spend a cent helping to make a beautiful home? Couldn't he argue that you forced him to deny himself nice things? Or that if something weren't a priority to YOU, then it wasn't a priority to the R? AND couldn't he also say that instead of gratitude from you for his providing a beautiful home, which you refused to help WITH him, and then when he wanted to do something smart like invest in a retirement account, you punished him by witholding YOUR "emergency" funds that were ALL somehow YOURS?...and now, w/the benefit of time and reflection, do you have any insight into how this must have made him feel?

in the end, it was the smartest move i made. because if i gave him that money and he asked for the d, i wouldn't have gotten that money back from him.

Really? Maybe If you had combined funds and been a team like most married couples, you'd have bonded by building something together. At least you'd both have some retirement funds AND furniture and some memories of a beautiful home, instead of drawing lines around the home and measuring every cent and keeping a scorecard. My overall impression when reading your post was "scorecard keeping" and rigidity on your end. That may have infected him too.

have i done anything to change this? i have purchased some new clothes, but i had to set up my own apartment and i needed the basics - plates, bowls, cutlery, glasses, mugs, etc. yes, i didn't get any of that when we moved.

i bought a nice tv and a nice mini oven - stuff i will use and keep long term. i prefer to invest money in long term pieces.

Did you buy any long term pieces when you were together? Did you discuss it? Did you budge at all?

i eat healthy, i learn to spend my money on important things and i cut out any nice-to-haves. i'm disciplined that way.

are you happy?

2. he felt that he was dragging me through his life. when he was growing up, his mother would arrange summer camps and activities for him. he never had to think about what to do. somebody always did it for him. when we got married, i did that for us. he didn't bring anything to our marriage that was for 'us'. i don't understand how he was dragging me through his life. i often put my own needs aside to put a sock in his mouth to stop the whining.

What did you give up? And I don't know what you mean by him dragging you thru his life or how he did not bring anything to your marriage for both of you when you make it abundantly clear what's yours is yours and what's his is his. There was no "us" or "we" in your post or marital history description. Not to me anyhow.
have i done anything to change this?
- took a baking class
- joined a squash league
- joined the local chapter of toastmasters
- bought a home.
- looking forward to skiing for the first time this winter.
ANYTHING MORE PERSONAL LIKE COUNSELLING?

3. religion. i don't involve him in my religious practices.

Too bad. It's Another lost opportunity for bonding or sharing at an intimate level.

my religious practice takes 2 minutes twice a month. you barely even notice that i practice it.
Um, then what's the point?

but when his parents arrive, he tells me to stop my religious practice because his parents wouldn't understand.

But I bet you insisted on another "important" boundary and did it so they'd know, right? Another way to force him to choose between instead of having both...
i don't mutilate small animals. my practice involves lighting a candle and saying a 30 sec prayer. is that so odd? i should be free to practice my simple religion in my own home, no? i would be happy to answer questions regarding my practice if they ask but if they don't ask, then i assume it doesn't matter to them either way.
Did it?
i've relaxed on my religion since.
Why? If it's 2 min a day, and it's not noticeable, what's to relax?


4. intimacy. he claims it was neither a passion or priority of mine. i have to admit.

when he treats me like crap, i don't want to be intimate with him. call it another boundary of mine. the thing is .. all i wanted was to feel close and intimate with my h. i loved him from day 1 and i still do. but i can't bring myself to engage in something that is so personal, emotional, and intimate with someone who just paid me the biggest insult (telling me that i wouldn't make a good mother). for me, intimacy is reserved for someone who i feel loves me.
So you witheld sex from him when your feelings were hurt? I get that. This is a common thing and there are lots of reasons for it. If someone insults you or is abusive, NO WOMAN feels "in the mood" then. But sex IS intimacy for most men, and if a man apologizes or expresses regret for hurting you OR if time has elapsed, then witholding is simply punitive. And you know what? No man returns to the "greatest sex he NEVER had"...in other words, witholding intimcay and passion is sad and it backfires big time. Pick battles wisely. Sounds as if you denied both of you so much.


not sure how one can prove this. i don't date around .. nor do i sleep around. but that doesn't stop me from buying nice underwear. i'm not wearing it for anybody but it makes me feel sexy .. that counts, right?

there was a fifth excuse but i don't remember what that was anymore.

What 180's are you practicing, if any?

i only realize recently what 180s are about. all along, i thought it was just about doing the opposite of things. but it's not. it's about thinking outside the box and doing something really different. still working on this.

How are you different now than before?

i'm a very angry person right now. i hope to change this.
i want to be a happier person.

You'll have to change the angry part, won't you? Do you see how you are the only person who can change this? Do you believe that?

i think i've grown intellectually as a person .. it's weird to have so much free time now. i realize now how much of my time was consumed by my h. i got to learn new things.

What do you want from this day forward, for your life?

to be financially independent. i never want to be with another person again because usually people take more than they give to me.

Wow, really? Like who? And I don't buy that. But if this is what you want, it is a recipe for loneliess and for the life of me, why come here if that's what you want? B/C it's not what you want. You're simply terrified of being hurt again, like all of us. I'm no shrink, but to me, a lot of your behaviors were sort of gearing toward making him leave you. Why would you sabatage your m so many ways?

i just want some sense of security and it's not something that men are capable of providing.

Oh good grief. NO MAN CAN OR SHOULD Provide us with that, when it is WE who give ourselves our own security. Our h's kill bugs for us and check out the weird noises for us, but in modern life we are PARTNERS...we have to show up for each other.

we live in a world that is ruled by hollywood celebrities.
You're globalizing the problem to avoid looking at your own personal sitch.
This is not a political debate. Make this about you and your personal work and not so much "out there" stuff...you'll grow and learn faster.

it's okay to cut and run when marriage is too hard. if i knew my h would cut and run, i wouldn't have married him. i took a risk and i'm paying for it in many ways.

Risk? What risk? You played the marriage as safely as possible by keeping all accounts AND choices and decision making that most couples make together, AS SEPARATE AND "SAFE" as possible, thereby constantly reminding him of how easy it would be to separate...and your actions lead to the very thing you most feared.

Sorry for the 2 x 4 but I think you are playing the victim and doing as little serious introspection as possible. When you start to get close to an issue of REAL intimacy or deeply painful ones, you redirect the discussion and make it political or you simply totally blame him. BTW, where's the MIL in all this? Do you see your h at all?

[DumpedforMIL]

thanks 25. you made me look at my m in a different light. i don't think i'd save it because i wasn't a great wife. i deserved to be left behind.

the best thing i can do right now, is to tell my lawyer to give my h my share of the house money. yes, i contributed to the home. but the damage i did .. he should get all of it, including the contents.

i should apologize to his mother and father. and also repay them for the wedding expenses they incurred.

i guess i thought i was doing the right thing but maybe not.

You'll have to change the angry part, won't you? Do you see how you are the only person who can change this? Do you believe that?

yes, the anger has suddenly turned to depression. i don't deserve to live.

Wow, really? Like who? And I don't buy that. But if this is what you want, it is a recipe for loneliess and for the life of me, why come here if that's what you want? B/C it's not what you want. You're simply terrified of being hurt again, like all of us. I'm no shrink, but to me, a lot of your behaviors were sort of gearing toward making him leave you. Why would you sabatage your m so many ways?

because i don't deserve anybody. i'm such a horrible person. it's all my fault.

Oh good grief. NO MAN CAN OR SHOULD Provide us with that, when it is WE who give ourselves our own security. Our h's kill bugs for us and check out the weird noises for us, but in modern life we are PARTNERS...we have to show up for each other.

really? my h said that he'd be there for me if i was dying in a hospital. but otherwise, i'm on my own.

Sorry for the 2 x 4 but I think you are playing the victim and doing as little serious introspection as possible. When you start to get close to an issue of REAL intimacy or deeply painful ones, you redirect the discussion and make it political or you simply totally blame him. BTW, where's the MIL in all this? Do you see your h at all?

my head is in a bit of a tizzy from the 2x4s .. my MIL is there. i don't want to re-live it.

i don't see my h at all. he left me. why would we see each other?

it looks like i have some serious issues to address. thanks for your input.

D4MIL

[25yearsmlc]

D4,

I honestly put a lot of effort into that post to you. But I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or what. I simply never saw you take any genuine responsibility for the demise of your m except in minor superficial ways & then externalizing
& globalizing to "men in general" which keeps us from directing advice to you specifically. So when I point out possible ways your h might see things, you are either totally dismissing it or saying it's all true and now you're totally at fault. Let's avoid black & white 'all or nothing' scenarios, b/c they are not valid or helpful.

Assuming you are not being sarcastic, then stop berating yourself. Just learn from your mistakes b/c we ALL make them. I was no saint.

But if you don't learn and choose to make significant changes, you won't feel any safer in the future. You'll repeat the mistakes & be rejected again, OR shut yourself down emotionally and avoid rejection by having no one close to you. Both of those options suck.

There's no shame in needing help. I did seek it out & I thank God for that. But do Get help. If your claim about not deserving to live is a something you actually feel, get help sooner. Please.

[DumpedforMIL]

you definitely helped me see things in a different light and thoroughly explained.

i did leave out details because i simply did not want to rehash everything from start to finish. i don't think it's healthy for me and my ic agrees. the marriage is over and we're trying to move forward. to go back and relive the situation is not helpful at this point.

i believe both sides made errors. i know i have said things that i should not have said. but i cannot take the back at this point.

you can 2x4 me on the home front as much as you'd like. but that wasn't even the complete story. i chose to give a 'all my fault' answer to avoid going back and forth on this.

i honestly do not want to relive the past. i admit i have said some extremely hurtful things to him. we both did to each other. life was better when we were just dating and parents weren't so involved. as soon as parents entered the picture, it wasn't the same.

i want to thank you for your candid feedback. you indeed gave me something more to think about. i will try to work on those things but a future relationship will not be in the cards.

the only man i ever planned on being married to is my h. i don't plan on marrying again. i've never been one to date around - it was one of the things he respected about me. i am in counselling and will likely be in counselling for a while. but i rather be alone than to be dating so i can say i have someone.

D4MIL

[25yearsmlc]

I'm glad you are in counselling. There are some personal growth workshops that are sometimes even more effective than IC only b/c they are more "efficient" in that you can plow through issues without having to go back to work right as you dig deep enough into something. Just a thought. I did a serious workshop years ago that came in very handy for my career and later on, for my marital "challenge". Later, my h attended it as well and then we went together. Very useful and quite profound. Similarly, if your h shows any interest, try Retrovaille. That was also similarly profound and helped seal the deal with our reconciliation.

I hope you won't fall on your sword too much or go from one extreme to the other. Maybe you married the wrong guy or for the wrong reasons, who knows? Of course you both made mistakes.

Give yourself time and learn about yourself without all the judgement. I mean, the same harsh tone I found in your post about your marriage and men in general, is also the tone you used with yourself in the next post. There's an unforgiving aspect to this that you might want to drop altogether. If you've got some "big issues" to work on, work on them. I heard a therapist say "If a problem is being worked on, it's a problem solved...move on." So give yourself (and the world), a break.

We're all living with our inner demons and struggles and are fighting our own private battles.
Good luck,

[DumpedforMIL]

journaling ..

it's friday and the last post just re-opened the wounds that were in the process of healing. i feel tense, anger, sadness, and depressed.

i have the entire weekend now to run away from the intense hurt that has taken over my body. i'm going to try and play squash tonight.

the last few posts were not helpful in my healing. the advice would have been welcomed six months ago but i'm nearing the final days of separation. issuing a 2x4 now would be like giving the dead horse one last kick just for good measure. i don't need one last kick - i'm already dead.

the timing of the post was very bad as i had just had my ic session and my next one isn't scheduled for another 1.5 weeks. thank goodness for crisis lines. i'm sure they will be hearing from me tonight.

i expected to be in better shape after 10 months but i'm really no better than i was. i've started to GAL and look into myself and where i went wrong. my demons were my words. when you're on my good side, i'm sweet as pie. when you're on my bad side, i have a way with words that would cut you right to the core. that's because i listen, observe, and remember. i know what you like and i know what you don't like.

the lesson i learned was you don't make your point by doing the wrong thing and hoping the other person sees your point. if he leaves his socks around, doing the same (or leaving 10x the amount of socks around) isn't the right way to prove your point that leaving socks all over the place makes for a messy room.

careful how you choose your words - once words have been said, you can't take them back. and it is almost impossible to undo.

i keep score without knowing it. when you say one thing, i expect you to back it up with action. if you don't, it gets filed under the lack of integrity folder. when he tells me that i need to put him first, and he doesn't do the same .. i give him chances and when i don't see any improvement, it gets filed under 'lack of integrity'. when he tells me that i never finish the job, and then goes and does the same himself.

i actually wasn't like this during the marriage. and i never got to say any of this to him. there was so much unsaid things on my end .. so many unsent letters i wrote, telling him how unhappy i was. how i could not say i love you after our first year of marriage. i wrote your typical WAW letter. but i wasn't running away to have an affair. i ran away to get away from feeling neglected by my h. i don't want to be a home where i'm invisible to my h.

at this time, there is no point.

D4MIL

[DumpedforMIL]

part 2 .. journaling ..

i always get a weird feeling when others read my thread and realize what a nut case i am.

my body is still tense so i booked a 30 min massage to help get rid of the tension before the weekend begins.