Darker days ahead

[DumpedforMIL]

So.. where have you done this.. Dumped?

i didn't say i did this. but the advice here is usually .. ask, validate, etc.

i have asked my stbxh on many occasions what he wants. sometimes i like to just surprise him by showing him i learned something about his hobby or his interest. it shows that i have been listening to him and it's not just garble.

he would want a particular brand of scotch. i would make a call to get it reserved and shipped to the store nearest where we lived. he got it for christmas last year.

i would asked him if i was getting better at intimacy. i would ask what he liked or didn't like.

the one thing that i am guilty of is .. i journal my thoughts and my thoughts never leave the pages of my journal. after the first year of my marriage, i wanted to walk away. i had written a long letter to my stbxh telling him why i was walking away.

i never sent that letter. to this day, i never told him that i wanted to leave after our first year together. i'm sure if i told him now, he would say "see, i knew we both wanted this." i watched my position in his priority queue get lower and lower. then i became disposable.

maybe i was replaced by someone more important. someone who would give him everything he wanted. i always said that i was preparing him for his real wife. he didn't like hearing that. but i always had this feeling that he would leave me. and he did.

D4MIL

[DumpedforMIL]

People need to be prepared.. that is what the vets will do.

i don't think all vets do. most just refer to the "letting go" thread or "what makes a man attractive" or "sandi's do's and dont's list".

The vet expects failure.. and still tries to lead. But it can become frustrating to do. You can only come up with so many ways to say it.

i agree with this and i'm not a vet.

So.. now you have cleared the fog? Do you understand yet?

to be honest, i don't know if i'm out of the fog yet. sometimes i think i am and then wham .. i go through his crazy phase and i'm SURE i'm not out of the fog. but in some ways, i don't think i am.

I knew.. from post 1 that me and you would be right here.. fighting it out.

You very likely won't like me.. cause I am gonna beat you up.

I am OK with that.

i'm okay with it too.

Cause from the start.. I told you all you had to say was "Forrest.. go away."

you know why i didn't tell you go away? because i needed someone to challenge what i thought i knew about relationships and men. i need to "see", hear, and feel what i knew about relationships challenged. in a way, it would help me change for the better. so i can approach future "relationships" with a different outlook.

i know me. if you can't totally convince me that my knowledge is flawed, then i will go into future relationships making the same mistakes. heck, it's like the LLs. i didn't know that gifts were so important and it doesn't mean they are materialistic.

i didn't know about the power of compassion.
i didn't know that men need to feel valued/needed and loved .. i know i'm not using the right words but it's something along those lines.

challenge my views. i'm not trying to pick a fight about the "women want financial security" issue. i'm trying to let you know why i see it my way. and maybe someone will change that in me.

Dumped.. Who do you want to be?

for the longest time, i wanted to be my h's wife.
but now, i just want to be the daughter that my mom knew before i got married. i put family first before myself.
i could care less if i was with anybody. i was content on my own. i worked to take care of the family. it didn't bother me if i didn't have a valentine on feb 14th. i didn't care if i received flowers or not.
i had disposable income but didn't spend it. saved it for a place of my own.

I won't let you roll out like this.

what do you mean by this?

waiting for the fat lady to sing.

D4MIL

[25yearsmlc]

D4mil,

I've seen your posts elsewhere, with several arguments about the theory that women want financial security or men think we do, and how unfair it is that it's held against us as if we're "gold diggers", if and when we actually do want security. I think you reject it as a theory, totally. Then later you say your h is probably dating some ow and you yourself describe her as a "gold-digger...or...girlfriend..." Just noting it, okay?

I'm a professional woman and a mom. I read a study some 20 years ago that validated my personal experience, so perhaps it bears repeating. When asked what men & women most valued in a spouse, men reported "attractiveness and peace in the home" (I read that as "decent sex/looks good, and no nagging"). Women reported "Fidelity and security". To me, "fidelity" meant "don't cheat" and "Security" meant I want to feel safe. It's more than finances, but it included financial security too, and I have no shame in that at all. I have worked hard.

When we had our first child (surprise!) I was in law school so my "maternity leave" was without pay b/c graduation was delayed. I was SO GLAD my h could provide well enough for us for me to have that time off and not starve. By the 3rd child, born 12 yrs later, h earned enough for me to stay home for some years and I was and still am grateful for that. He owed the military a commitment for his med school so it wasn't as if he could stay home instead of me, but even if he could, my inclinations were more in line with it than his).

Maybe it's a biological thing for some of us, and I was surprised to feel this way frankly. But then I liken it to the caveman theory, and it helps explain.

I like to think if I were home in the cave with an infant, and my h went out to hunt & gather, that I could count on him to come back with some meat or berries and not empty handed, while our nursing baby cries from hunger. If there were scary noises at night, I like to think my h would not hide behind me, but would go investigate with his club, while I protect the child. I'd back him up to be sure, but I"d want him in front. As a feminist, a part of me feels a tad embarrassed, but as a mother, (& a smaller person than my h,) I'm more & more comfortable admitting it. I feel differently now than I did before I had kids. I never ever planned on being a sahm, but I'm lucky I could.

Charles Mee wrote a play called "Big Love" (nothing to do with polygamy) that encapsulates the demands on men and women better than anything I've read or seen elsewhere. Our son was in the play in NYC. It made me cry to hear his character describe how hard (and unfair) it is for a man to have to be "ready to Kill or die" and in the next breath, be "ready to make love or comfort a dying friend, tenderly"...yes we do expect both the "sensitive guy" and the "killer caveman" bringing home meat. Or at least almost all of my friends and I do. The piece the lead female had a monologue about women today too. It was well written and described our dilemmas about being strong independent modern women who aren't "needy", and yet how we somehow play the whole "make him feel like a man" role too. Expectations matter. But we have to know of them.

I've worked harder to express my gratitude to my h for staying in shape, being physically strong, and being a good provider. It matters a lot to him and costs me so little.

I think you're very hurt, and I understand that. Most of us have been there, and I am among them. But you seem to be trying to apply your sitch globally, almost politically. and though I don't think it works, the real question is, how does it help you at all?
[/b]
When you predicted that your h would leave you, do you see how that might have played out as a self fulfilling prophecy?

Why would you expect him to leave you anyhow? Why'd you want to leave him after a year, and why'd you stay? From this day forward, what do you want your life to look like?

I posted to you on someone else's thread unfortunately, (it was a long one) but, oh well... Have you talked to a DB coach? Of the many many good helpful things I did to be here, if I only had one thing I could do in the same sitch, I'd hire a DB coach. Their advice is specific and detailed and so helpful. I highly recommend them. They won't say "stay at all costs" even if it were an option, and they understand that you may simply need a new approach to your life as a woman without a h present. They get that. good luck,
j-

[Greek]

D4mil,

I've seen your posts elsewhere, with several arguments about the theory that women want financial security or men think we do, and how unfair it is that it's held against us as if we're "gold diggers", if and when we actually do want security. I think you reject it as a theory, totally. Then later you say your h is probably dating some ow and you yourself describe her as a "gold-digger...or...girlfriend..." Just noting it, okay?

I'm a professional woman and a mom. I read a study some 20 years ago that validated my personal experience, so perhaps it bears repeating. When asked what men & women most valued in a spouse, men reported "attractiveness and peace in the home" (I read that as "decent sex/looks good, and no nagging"). Women reported "Fidelity and security". To me, "fidelity" meant "don't cheat" and "Security" meant [b]I want to feel safe. It's more than finances, but it included financial security too, and I have no shame in that at all. I have worked hard. [/b]
When we had our first child (surprise!) I was in law school so my "maternity leave" was without pay b/c graduation was delayed. I was SO GLAD my h could provide well enough for us for me to have that time off and not starve. By the 3rd child, born 12 yrs later, h earned enough for me to stay home for some years and I was and still am grateful for that. He owed the military a commitment for his med school so it wasn't as if he could stay home instead of me, but even if he could, my inclinations were more in line with it than his).

Maybe it's a biological thing for some of us, and I was surprised to feel this way frankly. But then I liken it to the caveman theory, and it helps explain.

I like to think if I were home in the cave with an infant, and my h went out to hunt & gather, that I could count on him to come back with some meat or berries and not empty handed, while our nursing baby cries from hunger. If there were scary noises at night, I like to think my h would not hide behind me, but would go investigate with his club, while I protect the child. I'd back him up to be sure, but I"d want him in front. As a feminist, a part of me feels a tad embarrassed, but as a mother, (& a smaller person than my h,) I'm more & more comfortable admitting it. I feel differently now than I did before I had kids. I never ever planned on being a sahm, but I'm lucky I could.

Charles Mee wrote a play called "Big Love" (nothing to do with polygamy) that encapsulates the demands on men and women better than anything I've read or seen elsewhere. Our son was in the play in NYC. It made me cry to hear his character describe how hard (and unfair) it is for a man to have to be "ready to Kill or die" and in the next breath, be "ready to make love or comfort a dying friend, tenderly"...yes we do expect both the "sensitive guy" and the "killer caveman" bringing home meat. Or at least almost all of my friends and I do. The piece the lead female had a monologue about women today too. It was well written and described our dilemmas about being strong independent modern women who aren't "needy", and yet how we somehow play the whole "make him feel like a man" role too. Expectations matter. But we have to know of them.

I've worked harder to express my gratitude to my h for staying in shape, being physically strong, and being a good provider. It matters a lot to him and costs me so little.

I think you're very hurt, and I understand that. Most of us have been there, and I am among them. But you seem to be trying to apply your sitch globally, almost politically. and though I don't think it works, the real question is, how does it help you at all?
[/b]
When you predicted that your h would leave you, do you see how that might have played out as a self fulfilling prophecy?

Why would you expect him to leave you anyhow? Why'd you want to leave him after a year, and why'd you stay? From this day forward, what do you want your life to look like?

I posted to you on someone else's thread unfortunately, (it was a long one) but, oh well... Have you talked to a DB coach? Of the many many good helpful things I did to be here, if I only had one thing I could do in the same sitch, I'd hire a DB coach. Their advice is specific and detailed and so helpful. I highly recommend them. They won't say "stay at all costs" even if it were an option, and they understand that you may simply need a new approach to your life as a woman without a h present. They get that. good luck,
j-

25 ~~~~ Now that's Big Girl Talk!! I don't know when I've eve appreciated an explanation moree than I enjoyed what you wrote. It is spot on, deep and wide, honest and so well put. Thank you.


Really. Thank you!
Greek

[25yearsmlc]

Greek,
glad to assist. I believe all that I said -- but I still have to work on expressing it more often to my h. Getting better at it, though.

[Greek]

Greek,
glad to assist. I believe all that I said -- but I still have to work on expressing it more often to my h. Getting better at it, though.

No kidding, 25...you really put it together well. I've been thinking about this idea of independence, self-reliance, strength, ability and autonomy...and how it fits into a relationship with a man. I've been wrestling with it personally, and as the mother of a daughter. How do I raise her to find the balance in her life? How do I keep the balance in my life? To be me - and be his? Well, I don't say you've answered all of those questions, but you truly put the right words to an opinion I agree with.

And how generous of you to take the time to share those thoughts with a younger woman (D4MIL). That's the sisterhood. It helped this older woman, too.

Cheers!~~~
Greek

[25yearsmlc]

d4,

About your name and the whole MIL thing-- I read back on your old posts b/c the screen name is so confusing and frankly, alarming. I'm not positive it fits either. There's not much data about it, so I can't really know. And as for your h lurking here, I don't believe after this long, that he'd still be reading posts here that would somehow sabatage your DB efforts. Seriously, either give some details or explain why you aren't.

More importantly, is your mil's data about you even real? If it's not, then who cares? IOW, if she believes the earth is flat and you're a purple lesbian frog, does it really matter? Oh, wait, you fear your h thinks what she says is true? First, I'd counter any negative images she's feeding him, OR he's feeding himself, with positives to contrast. (180's...If they say you're stingy, be generous. IF it's a true statement).

Second, if he's the type to believe whatever his mother says, at this age, and or is so co-dependent on her for major life choices, then I guess you aren't losing much...maybe he'll grow up and call you, or maybe she'll pass away and he'll 'graduate' to adulthood and call you,. Or maybe you can
move forward in your life regardless of whether he calls you. But you will have to let some of this stuff slide off your back like water on a duck.

I think your real fear, which is universal and makes sense, is that you let a guy into your heart and he rejected you, and therefore, something must be wrong with you. But is that really true?

Were you human? I mean, Did you have flaws, some of which were changeable? You did??? Okay, so you change those flaws that you want to change b/c YOU want to (which means marriage to you NOW would be different and better than before, which is good--because if your m is going to be the same as before, why would he want back in? Why would you?) It has to be different. Which means you have to be. Okay so you're human and you had some flaws and you are working on them...fine. That's done. Next...

OR the flaws he claims are not even valid, in which case you know his data isn't real so it cannot matter to you. Chalk it up to the "earth is flat & you're a purple lesbian frog" rumors and let it go. Reality will catch up with him in time. For most of us, it's a combination of real flaws or traits that we decide to change some of, and BS stuff they convince themeslves of to justify leaving. There's not a lot to do with that but stay calm and do the opposite of. You can't spend emotional energy on it for sure. It usually backfires anyway.

The more you argue with his choices, the more he'll defend them. The more you worry about what his mother thinks/says/does, the worse for you.

I know you think your sitch is 1 in a mllion but that's b/c most people thought your h was having an A with his mother, which is what your screen name implies.I realize it wasn't that way but that your mil was a bad factor in the m. Well, I had a similar issue with my late mil. She was not a stable woman and I was often the target of her illness and anger. She blamed me for some non events and for ANY troubles between her sons. She even blamed me for her mother, the 96 y/o grump for making our infant son cry at the time. As if I had coached him....huge scenes..But When she got cancer I went out with my d21 to assist her with chemo and help her to die with dignity. She came out to our home where I cared for her almost 24/7 and She did die with dignity. I rose to the occasion and have no regrets. There was no awareness on her end and no apology. I'm fine with that. She's gone now. Your mil won't be around forever so it's sad if your h "obeys" her at this stage of life.

I don't think your sitch is very unusual at all. MANY inlaws are not helpful in these situations. Many of them are poor dysfuntional influences in their adult children's lives, OR are trying to repair bad R's they had with their children & see supporing their choice to leave as now being "supportive"...)

What I never found in any of your posts are reasons he gives for leaving. What is it that he feels is missing in the m? What would HE say are the reasons he's leaving or what he'd like to see change in you? Is there any validity to any of what he says? If so, what are you doing to change those things?

If not, so be it. Then It's his journey and there's nothing you can do to steer him a certain way.

So you're facing the question of whether You do have flaws b/c you're not Mother Teresa (and hey,she wasn't perfect. She wasn't very sexy). But there are also likely to be pieces missing, or false claims of fault, that are all your h's responsibility. For those parts, which may be the bulk, you do have to let go. I mean, my h went nuts for living on the tundra where he was convinced he'd earn gazillions of dollars and we all would love it there, and we'd "see the light" etc. None of us wanted to return there, as we'd live there previously and only h had liked it. There was nothing I could say or do to show him that it wasn't going to go as he thought. He put his wants ahead of all ours and ahead of our family and at one point I asked him if he understood that this was essentially going to threaten our family for a JOB...to which he said "I'm willing to take the chance of losing our family for this job". To this day he has NO recall of saying that and I believe him. Strange, but true.

His mother of course would never dream of saying he was being selfish or being odd. He seemed to need to go and could not or would not be stopped, So he did go and I stayed with our children. And he wasn't right. And it did not turn out the way he hoped at all. And he did a lot of R damage and financial damage, and it is taking a long time to recover from that and I cannot say the Rs with our kids are all repaired, but he's working on it.

My mil was glad he returned but never expressed regret about her own commentary. It would never occur to her that she helped him to do the damage he did. She didn't protect her only grandchildren and sadly, at her funeral, our older children gave eulogies in which they both admitted they did not know her well. This shocked my h. THAT SHOCKED ME...(I mean, how could he think they were close?? But I digress).

My point is that inlaws are all around and we deal with them well, or half decently, or we move away (yep, done that!) or they die (eventually it happens) or we set healthy boundaries. Without some real details, I can't offer specific advice on that but maybe you'll be comfortable with a mc or a DB coach and can tell them. They're really very good. Also, fwiw, I have 2 family members who divorced and remarried their exes, so it happens.

Change what you can. Be the best you can, (as in, BE A WOMAN ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE), and leave the results up to the big guy.
Good luck,
j

[DumpedforMIL]

25, before i reply .. did you read my original (huge) thread? i just wanted to know before i give a big reply.

D.

[Piano]

I relate to the cave story. When I was pregnant with my baby, I needed to retreat into the cave to have her in peace and security. Instead of being outside bringing down lions so we could feast and live well, my WH was playing with the lions (OW). I felt incredibly insecure!!
Now, I don't think you will find that surprising - nothing weird about feeling insecure when you are pregnant and being left by your husband - but it made me realise how much I needed my man to be.. a man! And I am a feminist, and I am very capable and independent. But we need our men to be there for us. I remember crying to WH, "But I need you to protect me and our unborn child! Why aren't you protecting us?".
He must have thought I was pathetic.

[25yearsmlc]

piano
I recall your sitch and think it strikes us as women, at our very core. We're physically vulnerable, heavier than we've ever been so even though there may be a "glow" about us, we feel unattractive and very easily threatened. And he cheated. OUCH...and he missed out on the birth & newborn time as he was far away, so there was NO ONE coming back to the cave while you had to keep the baby safe. I think there's a lot to be said about our primal needs. And yeah, I'm a feminist. How are you now? Sorry for the hijack