Albuquerque living

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Alb,

If it were me, I'd respond with "I'd love to talk about our marraige, but not as long as there's a third person in it. End your affair (alt.: "contact with OW"), and we can discuss. And I'd hope that something as important as our family's future, you would want to discuss completely sober."

But that's just me.

Even if you don't want to OFFENSE-ively throw out ultimatums, there's certainly nothing wrong with RESPONDING with what your boundaries are (no contact with OW) if HE decides he wants to "re-assess" the marriage. In fact, it's entirely appropriate.

Puppy

[warriorshadow]

Alb,
I feel for you girl. Of course you know of the no expectations at this point. You did say that above. I wondered what it would be like for my W to start doing this as well. Right now I feel very
uneasy about this for you. I would not trust a thing.

I think he is still very broken and you should keep that on the top of your priority stack of thoughts in your head. Of course you will do what is comfortable for you.

In my opinion, if my W was doing this in my sitch, I would insist on her continuing with her IC and I would be watching and listening closely. Actions must match words. There seems like there is a very long way to go even if there is a beginning to the road of recovery. After a few weeks or a month, the actions better match the words. Sex for me would be out of the question.
Not that I would not want it of course but I am not going to be her emotional "Fix" and have her run off again.

That is my 2 cents.

So for your sitch, it will probably be different. This stuff is hard. That is why I feel for you so much on this. I know the emotional havoc that will have to be there for you no matter how it goes.

[TAMF]

Al -

I will be interested in hearing what others have to say - I think lunch is a good idea to listen to what he has to say. I worry about how bad his depression has gotten. Is this a cry for help?

You know how good you are doing? Just the fact that you have questioned this behavior and you are are not jumping to reply and get all excited proves how far you have come. Me? you know how friggin lost I am right now - I would probably start weeping and get on the phone and tell him to get right over. I have such a long way to go to get where you are.

I hope Wonka replies - I would like to know his thoughts on this.

I was thinking after our conversation earlier that dealing with a S of MLC is like trying to commit suicide with a stick slow and painful and you really don't get very far! he-he

[fisherman]

Even if you don't want to OFFENSE-ively throw out ultimatums, there's certainly nothing wrong with RESPONDING with what your boundaries are (no contact with OW) if HE decides he wants to "re-assess" the marriage. In fact, it's entirely appropriate.

Puppy

Care should be taken on how it is presented, but I agree. There is no point in having a discussion about "us" as long as there is another person involved.

I would like folk's opinions on this. Is this forward movement? In a way I suppose. But like I posted in my last post, he is still very very broken.

They can't ever let you get too far away. He feels you distancing and is now curious, he is making an attempt to reel you back in closer. As soon as he knows he "has" you again, boom, it will be right back to crazy and ow.

At this time, there are too many red flags to believe otherwise.

I know he wants to have some alcohol in him to have the discussion, but that doesn't seem like a good idea.

Here is a obvious one.

This is the yo yo game that they play. Be careful.

[fisherman]

Anyway, just throwing it out there. I'm not sure how you feel about things, and I guess I would like to know, is the point.

I'm sure he does.... I'd almost be willing to bet ANYTHING, that if you give him enough to let him know that your sitting by waiting and willing, he will be off to the races once again. This is classic pursuit/distance.

Please keep your hand close to you. DO WHAT WORKS.

You really need to stay strong right now.

[Albuquerque]

So an update from my last post. It's been an interesting few days. My H had requested that we "talk" about stuff (I posted the email from him earlier in this thread). We ended up talking in the early afternoon. I had a friend pick up D from school and drop her off at home so we wouldn't have that time loss.
Since he had requested this "talk" I let him talk. He spent about 30 minutes just chatting about his job and unimportant things. I really wanted to move things forward but was patient and just let him talk. After 30 minutes or so, he finally got down to his thoughts. He stated that last week, after visiting the house for a bit and chatting with me, he got to thinking. He started telling me how he had noticed a lot of changes in me. He felt that the communication had really opened up and that it seemed to flow better. He said he noticed that unlike before, where he felt we never really did too many things outside the home, that now I was constantly going out and doing fun things such as hangliding, waverunners, shooting ranges etc. He said that whereas I previously disliked cooking and did the minimum to get by, he now noticed that I seemed to be making elaborate dishes and enjoying it. He said that it seemed that since he'd left, I'd really "blossomed" and he wanted to know how I perceived things.

I took awhile to really think about what to say. After some thought, I told him that I had decided to use this opportunity to improve myself. To take a real introspective look at my issues and try to address them. I told him that I agreed that my communication was improved. It was something I had been working on. I'm more patient, I'm less argumentative etc. I have worked to improve my communication with family, including his parents. I told him that I have used this time to really try to improve myself and that it wasn't something with a finite end. Growth is ongoing. There is no end point. But there absolutely is a way to stop your growth and that prior to his leaving, I was not growing as a person. And that while I was not happy with the situation, it has been the catalyst I needed to grow. After my schpiel, I asked how he was doing.

He said plainly...not good. He went on to explain. He said that when he had made the decision to leave 9 months ago, he had a lot of things he wanted to change. He had a lot of "complaints" about his life and the way things were. He disliked that we seemed to be stuck in our house all the time. He disliked that we never seemed to do anything social. And he was going to change that. And in those 9 months he stated, "I've become more of a hermit". He said that while he wanted to change and get out and do fun things, he's not succeeded. Meanwhile, I am going out and doing things that have been on his "list of fun thigs to do" for years. And while he wanted to become more social and do more things with more people, he's not succeeded at all. Meanwhile, I'm joining various groups, going to meetings and attending events. He said that when he recently filled out a questionnaire from D school about our opinions about the school, there were countless questions he simply had no idea because he was so out of the loop. He said that it always bothered him that when we were dating, that I would go to parties with him and become quite drunk but once we were married, I seemed to dislike the mere idea of having a drink. Yet now that he's gone, he's noticed that I'll drink wine with my dinner and have sake when we go out for sushi. He said, basically, my not being at home has made you a better person.

(I continued to be quiet as he said all of this) Then he went on to say that as he sees it, he left because he had a lot of complaints about the way things were and he wanted to make a change in his life. Now that he's been gone for 9 months, he's gone from anxiety issues to full blown depression, he isn't doing ANYTHING social despite wanting to. He says he makes plans for things, puts them on the calendar and then just doesn't go. He says he continues to be a workaholic to the point of unhealthiness. He says some days, he just wraps himself up in a comfortor and stares at the ceiling. So then he said, "when I do the math, my leaving hasn't fixed anything and in fact, things are worse. So that's when I began to realize that the problem was me all along."

I found that statement to be quite profound coming from him. He went back to his previous statement of "my being gone has made you a better person". It's only then that I took a gentle issue to his statement. I told him that while I agree, I would not have changed had he not left, the assumption within that statement would be that his coming back would make me regress. I told him that the changes were one-way. My communication has improved. I get along better with people. I look at things differently. THis would not change. (I hated to bring up the slightest vague mention of reconciliation but I didn't see another way of making my point without mentioning it.) We discussed the permanence of changes briefly, but then my D ended up coming home and we were interrupted. She seeemed delighted to see him and despite asking her numerous times to do her homework, she kept on being chatty with H. Once she finally went to her room, we talked a bit more but it had more to do with him asking me about my experiences with a counselor and I gave him my thoughts. He said that his psychiatrist and his GP didn't seem to have any solutions for him other than "more drugs" or "different drugs". He said that he's been considering seeing a counselor. Unfortunately, our conversation was once again cut short when D returned after finishing her homework. She, H and I just chatted on the couch for the rest of the time. He seemed much more interested in her and me. He asked more questions and even seemed to notice the animals more. He mentioned that he had received a movie theater gift card from the board of his company and suggested that "we" go see a movie. This is the first time he's suggested a "we" activity since January. We've done a few things together, but they were always events or things for D. That was a marked change. And whereas he used to seem to avoid all bodily contact with me (as if I had ebola) he seemed to make it difficult for me to hand him something without me touching his hand. The fact that it freaked me out a bit was sad and jarring, but it definitely showed a change in him. Our chat ended when I had to take D to her martial arts class. We usually have dinner after that and despite the fact that he had been at the house for hours already, he said he'd join us for dinner.

Dinner was also interesting. His conversation was lighter and less strained. He seemed to be sharing more about his life. We both had a little too much sake and he even made a suggestive comment to me. I had too much sake to ignore it and made one back but then immediately started in on a conversation with D so I tried to ignore my slight lapse in judgement. When we leave the restaurant, we often have a brief conversation in the parking lot prior to us going our separate ways. This time, the conversation lasted almost an hour. He once again mentioned that "we" need to go to the movies. And much to my total surprise, he insisted on giving me a sideways hug when he said goodbye.

So what are my thoughts? I think these are all good signs. I was wary. I didn't know what he was thinking. I think I have a slightly better idea now, but there are still a lot of issues. He's still got a a lot of growing he needs to do. He cannot come back now. To do so would be him trying to repair his issues AGAIN, but WITH me this time instead of without. He needs to fix his issues period. I cannot fill those "holes" in his persona. He needs to do so and he needs counseling to do so (IMHO). It will be interesting to see if he takes the step to set up a counseling appt. I will not do so. I will not ask him. I will not help him.
As for the movies, if asked, I will go with D. But once again, I will not remind him. I will not plan it. I will not do the work.
We have not officially talked about reconciliation. I think he sees that as an option now given his change in behavior. The big unspoken issue, however, is the OW. Granted, I have never known FOR SURE, the nature of the relationship. The conversation never went in a direction where I felt it warranted for me to bring it up. But if reconciliation becomes a topic of conversation, and if I gather (based on her continual FB posts on his page) that they are still likely an item, I may broach the subject.

I will continue on with my actions as I have in the past. I will let him run this show. I will not make any moves forward at this time. I will continue to observe his actions and sincerely hope that he gets help for himself. After speaking with him, the pain that he is in is evident.

So all in all, an interesting last few days. I still have no expectations. I worry that I may eventually be moving into a situation where my methods for dealing with H will necessarily have to change. I'm a bit worried about that since I have become accustomed to how to deal with an MLCer, NOT how to deal with a potentially healing MLCer. I'll have to reread some threads just in case so that I know what to expect. I am well aware that this may be a momentary regression only for him to "fall off the wagon" again at some point in the near future. I hope not but there can be no guarantees.

For those newbies (not that I'm that much of an oldie) I think some things stand out (to me) in these turns of events.

1) Getting a life is crucial. It saved me from wallowing in pity. I ended up doing fun things. It also (although this is not the point) can make the MLCer realize that YOU are the one having the fun even though it was supposed to be them. But even if they don't realize it, you're still have fun!
2) Making interior changes is crucial. Again, these are changes you make for YOURSELF because you realize you had those deficiencies. These often include some of the complaints put forward against you by the MLCer. They may not all be valid, but YOU know that some of them are. Work on those. But not for the spouse. Not to win them back. Work on them for YOU. Once the MLCer has enough sense to look around, they WILL notice the change. Rather than being the same old you, you are now something shiny and new.
3) Being non-confrontational is important. So many times I wanted to confront H about the OW. Because of the good advice of this board, I did not. I STILL have not. Had I done so, it probably would have pushed him further away and may have made him less likely to do the self-evaluation he's done. It's clear from talking with H, that even if he has an OW, it's not making him happy. The affair is a symptom, a crude band-aid for their MLC wounds. Leave the issue alone. Over time they may realize the truth. I have yet to see how this issue pans out in my case. I will NOT be bringing our relationship forward into a romantic arena until I KNOW what is going on. That is my boundary.

While I know he is still broken, the fact that he has come to the conclusions that HE has the problem, to me, is a profound shift. I will continue to watch and observe.

[TimeHeals]

He said plainly...not good. He went on to explain. He said that when he had made the decision to leave 9 months ago, he had a lot of things he wanted to change. He had a lot of "complaints" about his life and the way things were. He disliked that we seemed to be stuck in our house all the time. He disliked that we never seemed to do anything social. And he was going to change that. And in those 9 months he stated, "I've become more of a hermit". He said that while he wanted to change and get out and do fun things, he's not succeeded. Meanwhile, I am going out and doing things that have been on his "list of fun thigs to do" for years.

LOL.

I guess he has to stop blaming you for that much

I think he needs to get out and do fun stuff all by himself, IMO.

Not that you can't do "fun stuff" together, but it's an easy thing to blame YOU for him not doing fun stuff if he won't take the initiative ever and won't do anything alone.

[Albuquerque]

I agree. I will continue to move on for myself as I have before. If he asks to join D and me on various things, I won't refuse. But I won't go out of my way to tell him our plans. It's definitely something he needs to work on.

[ericmsant2]

Keep doing what is working....Alb...

[Albuquerque]

Journaling,

Still observing some changes in H. He has been calling me more whereas previously, he would just text or email. He seems more willing to come over more. For example, I texted him to let him know about a schedule issue with D since I had some contract work through my company develop. Rather than text back, he calls me and starts talking to me about it and asking questions. During the conversation, we discovered that the website I slapped together really fast wasn't working quite right. I am NOT computer savvy and have very minimal website building skills. He is a software developer and can do it in his sleep. When he realized my website was messed up, he walked me through fixing it over the phone and even asked if maybe he should just come over. I told him I was fine and we got it resolved.

Today, he called in the morning and wanted to see if I wanted to go shopping with him for a gift for my brother's wedding (since I hadn't gotten a gift yet either). I haven't gone "shopping" with this man since the bomb. I agreed and once there, he recommended we buy a more expensive gift and just make it from the two of us. I agreed and didn't think much of it until *I* was wrapping it and realized that that kind of got him out of some work. But he did put forth the effort in finding the gift and card.

When he left the house this evening, he locked the door behind him. That was the first time he'd done that in I don't know how long. It was a pet peeve of mine post-MLC and was a sharp change from the man he used to be when he used to always keep the door locked. So the fact that he took the time to do it may indicate a change in concern for D and me. He still seemed very open but slightly more reserved than earlier this week and he didn't attempt any hugs this time.

I can't help but notice that he continues to delete the fact that he comments on my FB posts on his profile. As it appears he seems to be wanting to move closer to me, I find the unspoken OW issue becoming larger and larger in my mind. I haven't broached the subject yet. I feel I will know when the time is right and there hasn't been an appropriate time yet.

On a slightly more amusing note, we still share a family calendar together to help coordinate D scheduling issues. I also use it for other meetings, gettogethers etc. I have been putting "exercise" on my calendar to remind myself of my pole dancing classes. He's never bothered to notice. But this week, he asked what it was. I was vague and said just a work out. Then later, he asked if it was triathlon related. Although I didn't REALLY want to tell him, I also thought it might be funny to blow his mind a little bit since that is totally NOT something I would have done pre-MLC. But rather than blurt it out, I just responded....not exactly. Then he said that was vaguish at which point I finally admitted what my "exercise" was. Needless to say, he was speechless, surprised, and confused, but then said it was awesome. I found the whole thing funny.