tired of this

[A_goodman]

They are really oily aren't they? I think I may have led you astray in one regard though. They went up in price a bit. I used to pay about a buck and a half less a stick. Glad you liked it though.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

The part I can't figure out is that there were two different kinds. Both called Rothschild, both same length and gauge, and similar darkness of wrappers. But one was smoother/oilier, and the other one was rougher, yet still real nice. I liked the latter one better, but I can't remember which one was which now?

Puppy

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I think one was Maduro and one was Oscuro maybe?

[A_goodman]

Yes they now make them in different wrappers and now they also have a band. When I started getting them a million years ago, they were bandless and only came in one wrapper. It was the darker wrapper, Which I think is also the rougher one. I always love them. Even though they are really dark, they don't knock your head off. It's the perfect smoke if you don't have much time.

[A_goodman]

Journaling...

So last night, I played it cool. She asked ME if I had thought about yesterday morning's conversation. I said that I had and that I understood her not wanting to drive Old Paint. She said it wasn't that, but that she was worried about our safety with the van needing some work. So I told her, since she wasn't against driving my car after all, I'd rather spend the money on the maintenance than on a rental. We get paid on Friday, so I would just leave a little later on Sat and get it done that morning.

The Cub Scouts have a fishing tournament scheduled at 7 AM that morning anyway, so I wasn't planning on hitting the road until after 9AM. (I set the date before this trip became my plan) I figured we might still get out around noon. She asked how much I thought a rental would be anyway, so I told her I'd look into it, but that I figured it would be at least $2-300 which would just be money down the drain.

Today, she e-mailed me that she had reserved a rental for the whole 5 days and that I could pick it up on friday. It was around $170.

I surrender. I'm driving the rental. Several things stand out about this.

1) She did all the work to set me up AND e-mailed me at work. (only the second time for an non-kid related e-mail in the month since I went dark.)

2)It is cheaper to rent a car than I thought, but still a waste of money, since I already own a car and It still needs some simple MX.

3) She must REALLY not want to drive my car for 5 days.

Ok some positives anyway. I'm sure she did this to be nice, but I'm waiting for the WAW snap-back maneuver. I'm sure I'll hear about her doing the work while I sat around doing BLAH BLAH BLAH. I already have my answer canned and waiting: "Honey, thank you. That was very considerate of you, and I DO appreciate it. Especially since I never asked you to do any of it." - BIG SMILE - exit stage left - AAAAAAAAND CUT!

Of course, if it was just out of the goodness of her heart and she doesn't snap back on me, the good thing is I can still use my answer.

We have MC tonight. I asked her this morning if she liked our guy. She said yes. I reminded her of her position that she wanted to stop after the 6th meeting which will be tonight. So I told her she should consider whether she wants to continue as he will undoubtedly want to talk about it tonight. No questions, no R talk, just a gental reminder that she needs to consider how to handle the deadline she set. Personally, I might decide to keep going sans W. Although, I get most of my feedback done here. Not sure about that. He's pretty smart and also generally laid back. It'd be interesting to see what he thinks outside of the MC setting.

We still have not gotten definatively to the bottom of what is driving her. I believe some of the thigs she has put forth, but it still doesn't seem like enough. I have come to find her rationale a little comical in one way. The MAIN thing she gave last time; my "emotional dis-honesty", i.e. going along to get along, was characterized as living a sham. He said that it makes sense that she would not want to live in a relationship that was not everything it seemed. OK I can grasp that. then when prompted to expound on why she has such a visceral reaction to this, she said: "I hate thinking that I might be going along all happy and content and have it turn out that he is unhappy and then one day have the other shoe drop and my whole world comes crashing in because he never let me know he wasn't happy."

WOW! It struck me instantly, but I was to astonished to speak. If not for that, I'm sure the words: "you mean like you're doing to me?!" would have come out and seemed less than cool and detached.

So, it is either the greatest projection ever foisted, or, I'ts the Cubam Missle Crises played to an alternative ending. She thinks I'm Castro and have been stockpiling for armagheddon, so she's just going to take me out to avoid me unleashing my strike on her. I guess it's really more like the cold war. Castro is small potatoes. So to keep from getting hurt first, let's go with mutually assured destruction.

That is messed up. If any of it is true.

Sandi, If you're out there, do you think that in this case, it's actually possible that my wussyness and being a doormat all those years actually made her scared that I would dump her? It makes more sense that she just didn't respect me as a man than this gobbledegook.

Another reason I'd like to stay, is that, since this is the only venue where we do any talking, I'd like to have enough opportunity to swing back around to MY needs. We still haven't come back to my trust issues. Plus we haven't reall discussed what reconcilliation would look like. I think she needs to know what I expect of HER in totality. That discussion doesn't seem natural until we flesh out her expectations and needs.

Either way, I'm a cucumber.

I think, since I'm respecting her boundary and only discussing R in her approved setting, My corrolary will be a Boundary in itself. If she wants to work on this, she will either need to keep going or reinnitiate MC when she's ready.

Funny how it used to be more stressful NOT discussing R and now it seems way more relaxing than when we actually have to focus on it at MC. I think I'm getting there.

[CPCajun]

Frustration is a form of anger. When most of us are angry we tend not to get good results.

Really? I do get frustrated, sometimes easy. Though my frustration is not of anger, more like dissapointment. And yes, W see this and I know she now. So when I do get frustrated, I usually leave the [room,house, etc,],take a deep breath, think positive and re-enter. I tell you when I do that, W rubs off on that positive vibe I have and the time together is much better.

Point being,yes, I do not get good results when I am frustrated.

(Sorry to hijack your thread)

[pinhead]

Yeah, I think it's way too easy to forget that for most of us, reading each other at least on a basic emotional level is pretty easy; I'm pretty transparent to my wife. She may not know what's bugging me, but she knows when something is.

[A_goodman]

Well, Detant continues.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. There have been skirmishes along the DMZ, but no indications that major action is imminant.

We went to MC. Discussed more about what we actually saw in each other at the beginning and how the way we were satisfied some inner need...BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I have been impressed with the therapist at times. He's laid back and unassuming, but there have been flashes of brilliance. But now I'm starting to see where he's going with all this. He's methodically steering her towards making value comparisons. By exploring our R historically, and trying to make us examine why we got and stayed together, and where we came from, he's subliminally causing her to weigh things from a different angle. He's sneaky. I like him.

Everytime I have questioned his motives or the relevance of a particular line of questions (mostly becaue I was impatient), he would give me very vague and non-committal answers, sprinkled with enough psychobabble to appeal to her proffesionally. It would frustrate me and delight her. But the man is actually on my side! Or the luckiest SOB that ever stumbled back-assward into a winning strategy.

Still not talking much about MY needs, but I think that's probably not the immediate problem. It makes sense to fix the hole in the hull and get the ship righted before you worry about how to get back under way.

She is usually more keen than I about intentions, but I think the fog has her off her game. If she saw it, she'd probably try and outflank his efforts. Or just quit going.

Of course, I didn't see all this before I really refflected on it. So like a dope I got suckered into a discussion on the way home. She was sad. A new tactic. I never saw it coming. She started talking about the emotional honesty thing again, which I accused her of projection on in MC. It was the only time I lost any composure there, but I did get defensive for about a minute before I got my head straight and clamped my cool back on.

It was set off by her saying I didn't get it and MC explaining that she felt that I had fooled her. So I lost it and asked REALLY?! Who's the fool? I indicated that she was as guilty or more of the same thing because - here we sit. How did that happen? By her letting me know she was unhappy and falling out of love for 10 years? NO. By her never letting me see her vulerabilities and always telling me she was Happy and Loved me. Then I knew I was below the hard deck and relaxed. Still, it was just proof that I still have a ways to go.

Anyway, in the car, she got really sad and I fell right in. We talked a while and she said she was really upset about my lack of trust. I tried to be empithetic, but also stood my ground. Then she swung around and I was caught broadside. It was too late and I was in too far. She went on about how all I had to go on was her E-mail and FB acct. Hammered me pretty good about it. Of course she suckered me. Here I was in an open, caring state of mind and WHAM! So I wheeled hard over and opened up back on her. Told her she was out of her mind if she thought that that was it. How about the EA? What about all the going out? Or that you never come home on time? OR the F-ing money? She "ain't all there" as the cowboys would say. She tried again to say that the money was no big deal. I asked her if she ever heard of financial infidelity. It was deceitful and duplicitous and would not engender any trust in any person older than a five year old. You get the picture. She balks at my transparency boundary. Said she is NOT going to give up 100% of her privacy. I told her I was open to that. Told her: "Ok. You go find another way to re-build the trust you destroyed. Do the research like I have, and come up with another solution and I will look forward to working on it with you. I don't know of another way, but if you find one or MC can propose one, I'll do it. gladly."

Then I realized I was again out of cool and started dialing myself back. She got quiet too. She went back to the sad demeanor she started out in. I wasn't biting anymore, but I do believe she is sad. I think she sees this as an impasse and is retreating further into herself. Later, after I went to get the kids, she was on the bed and had been crying. This is a VERY rare event. I sat next to her for a while. She hugged me. as per my policy of only RETURNING affection, I hugged her back.

Then something really weird happened. She leaned back and looked deep into my eyes and eventually whispered "I just have to do this" I figured that this was it. The weird thing is, I was remarkably calm. I waited a couple of seconds and said: "Ok. when?" She looked puzzeled so I asked her what she meant and she replied that she meant she just has to feel her feelings. Oops. She asked what I meant, and I just said I misunderstood her and went to give the boys showers.

It's been a quiet, uneasy couple of days. She's down. It hurts to see her in pain, but I'm glad that there are at least some feelings there. I figure she's either coming to a decision or starting to feel the results of her actions. IDK. I can't mind read. (ok, ok. More than I have)

Going to TX with the kids for a few days on Sat. It's going to be good to get away for a while. Going to relax and try not to think about any of this.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Goodman,

I don't have time to highlight them all, as I'm a little buried at work and have to get out of here a little early this evening (gotta do the "Mr. Mom" thing so I can have my 'gar later!), but there's an AWFUL lot of "mind-reading" in your post.

Go back and re-read it. I counted maybe five or six places, at least. Mind-reading is a big DB no-no; you do NOT know what your wife is thinking or feeling at any given moment, and let's face it, if our INSTINCTS were worth a crap, none of us would've ever FOUND ourselves here!

Why do you think she's so opposed to transparency? Is she hiding something?

Puppy

[A_goodman]

Thanks Pup. Good point on the insticts. Like I said, a jedi I am not. I will re-double my efforts to quit trying to reat her mind.

You know, when I am concious of what I am doing, I do an ok job of this. The problem is that all the things we need to control are insideous. You drop your guard for an instant and you are singing the "I screwed up" blues.

Every aspect of our personality that made us mates (attentiveness, affection, reading moods, caring about their happiness) are the things that we need to harness and withhold. Add to that that they know (or even unconciously know) what buttons to push to manipulate emotions like anger, concern, pity etc. And it requires intense self awareness and control to avoid the misstep. It gets tiring.

I can see why we need to excercise and be physically healthy.

I'll keep working.

oh BTW, I DID re-read it. Another thing stood out. I did not drop the F bomb on her. I have been very careful to try and avoid harsh words. Funny though, in hammering it out here, I was really angry and let it vent more than during the actual conversation. I guess that's a positive.