Thought I would start this topic as it has reared its head a few times and I'm a bit confused on it myself.
Most of the advice I read from the "greats" (Allen, Puppy, Robx, Gucci, Sandi, to name a few...) say you should NOT be "friends" with a WS. That's not that you can't be civil, cordial, etc... but you don't positively reinforce their bad behavior by remaining friends. I agree with this, personally. Why would I want to be friends with someone who wants to abandon me and destroy my family....causing my children damage for a lifetime?!
It also, to me, just allows WS to disrespect you. You're going to say, "I'm willing to be friends" while they are telling you they have no feelings for you or worse, are off running around with someone else???
BUT...I remember one of the first things I read on the homepage of this website was a story of a man who remained friends with his wife - Best Friends, it sounds like - and was able to restore his marriage. Does DB/DR not endorse remaining friends???
I guess my stance - and it's a difficult line to find - is to keep the door open but I'm not going to be buddies with someone who is treating me badly or at best, with no regard.
Thoughts on practicalities of this subject? I am posting this on both Infidelity and Newcomers as I know different people hang out on different forums.
H and I are still living together - still sharing the same bed in fact. Right now we are on friendly terms, I guess you would say. We still do things together with the kids like eat, go to the movies, and even to church. However, H shows no interest in working on our R. I am friendly towards him, but I am not going out of my way to be "friends" with him as I am distancing. I know he wants to remain friends even if we D. I will tell him absolutely not, if it comes to that! I will be civil, polite, etc... but I am not going to make it easy for him to have me there for him and cut and run at the same time!
A lot for me depends on how this marriage "retreat" weekend goes next weekend. I'm biding my time on any further actions until after that weekend. www.savemymarriage.com for anyone who wants to check it out.
I'm hardly a "pro". If I was I still wouldn't be here 5 years after my first visit.
But...I think the goal should be to be friends at some point. It may take a long time after a divorce for that to happen. But, especially if you have children together (and some day grandchildren) I think it's imperative to have the absolute best "after marraige" relationship possible.
For me the big issue is being too friendy in the midst of the separation/divorce process and letting my WAW use me as a doormat.
There is a way to have boundaries, self respect and still be friends - unless of course, your spouse, or former spouse is behaving in a way that you wouldn't consider in any friend.
If that friendship allows for reconcilation at some point - great! But, you can't do it just for that faint hope.
I'd love to get an official, updated position from MWD herself on this issue, Sunny, because it has caused a TON of confusion and grief on the boards over the years.
The confusion comes from the article, entitled something like "While She Decides" or some such, on this very site. However, it was NOT written by MWD, and from what I can tell from reading DB and DR, the article does not accurately reflect MWD's views on boundary-setting and LRT, just to name two very important issues.
While it's true that Allen's, Sandi's, my and even others' advice on Infidelity does, from time to time, take a slightly firmer stance than the DB/DR books (because I don't believe that infidelity and adultery are MWD's specialty, so I follow those whose it is, like Harley, Tupy, McGraw, Spring and others), that article you reference is even FURTHER to the left on the "friends-vs.-hard stance" issue.
I've also seen it put this way, and I think this is about right:
"What is your goal? If your goal is to DB the divorce, then DON'T go the "best friends" route. It's counter-productive to effective DBing. If you're DONE, however, and your goal is to just have the most civil, even friendly co-parenting situation with your ex-spouse, then it's probably the best way to go."
Ask yourself WHY you are doing it (being very friendly). If you are doing it "because that's just who I am, it's who I choose to be, and it rings authentic to me," then I think that's fine. (Just don't look for it to be effective in your DBing efforts).
If, however, your thought is -- AND THIS IS THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE I SEE ON HERE -- "This will endear him/her to me, and make him/her more civil in the divorce action, and/or make them come back to me," then FUHGEDDABOUTIT. If anything (and I think this is especially true for wayward women/betrayed men), it causes them to LOSE respect -- and therefore, love -- for you!
VERY good thoughts, Puppy! I agree with everything you've said. I wish too that MWD would clarify this issue or do something about that article. Allen mentioned (on the other thread) that maybe it's just a way to get people in because they read it and see that no matter what, a marriage can be saved. Perhaps - but it's very conflicting. I like your perspective on looking at your motives. That's very useful.
You seem to feel as strongly as I do about this being a conflicting point, Pup.
BTM: I can see what you're saying, but as Puppy mentioned, it depends on what you want out of all of this. I don't personally want to be at odds with H the rest of my life, even if we D, but I don't want to enable his CB either! I want him to MISS what he could/should have with me and the kids.
These were some of my other thoughts:
I think LBS's do it - remain friends - because it's less painful. Friendliness towards WS brings friendliness back in some cases. They mistake that for the WS changing their mind or coming around. Maybe it is in some cases, not for me to judge. When LBS dares not to be nice, WS's get angry at times and say things or do things that hurt the LBS. That causes the LBS pain. It's EASIER to be nice: nice equals less pain. However, nice doesn't garner respect when WS is doing things he/she should not be doing!
Therefore, to me, being friends is counter-productive to trying to save a marriage. I think it's Sandi's tagline to "do what works, not what feels good"
I'm going to jump in with info from a book I'm reading. It's called "The Courage to Trust: A guide to building deep and lasting relationships" by Cynthia L. Wall. I bought it because as a military/diplomatic brat, I never had a friendship longer than 3 years growing up (even through college), and it's very easy for me to put up walls.
Anyway....a section talks about 5 circles of belonging.
1) Aquaintances- these are people you've met a few times, have known for years, have decent converstations with, are nice to, but don't do things with...hairdresser, lawn guy, friends of friends you see at get togethers....you'd offer to help in tragic situations, but not share your deepest desire with or invite to your house.
2)Companions/coworkers-more than aquaintances, you've shared a few outside activites, but you don't go to their houses or even casually reveal details of your personal life- they're nice, and you'd go to a going away party, but wouldn't visit them when they moved.
3)Friends- this is someone who a shared activity is secondary to being together (I love that phrase and copied it from the book). you share details of your personal life, mutual sense of trust and connection. Even old time friends seldom seen are supported in troubled times.
4)Intimates- people with whom you have a shared sense of empathy. you can share your feelings without fear of shame or being pushed away. even in diagreements there is no rejection. You talk through issues to understanding.
5) Soul mates- you can call these people at 3am when you are upset and they'll come get you. possible romatic partners, but also could be business partners where everything is on the line. Takes years to build this type of relationship, reflective, nonjudgemental, honest...you can't imagine life without these people. self sacrifice at times, but it is equal. And it is hard to be this for more than a few people at a time.
NOW:
according to those definitions, a WAS should not be a friend. they're not a friend, they can't be a friend.
They should be put in the companion or aquaintance category.
I like these definitions, because it shows me why H and I seem to be stuck in the "friend" stage.....that whole "confident you can share your feelings without rejection" part in the intimates kinda puts a damper on things
When H and I split a few years back, I treated him as a companion. Family things with the kids? Yes. Saying please and thank you? Yes. Mentioning the weather? Yes. Commenting on liking a shirt? Yes. Just like I would tell a male coworker- Nice tie! or Good job on the project. Or Thanks for helping. Share emotions? nope. Mention issues with mom? Nope. Ask for help with mowing the lawn? Nope. Ask for a recommendation on a car mechanic- yes. That's how I treated H.
When H and I split a few years back, I treated him as a companion. Family things with the kids? Yes. Saying please and thank you? Yes. Mentioning the weather? Yes. Commenting on liking a shirt? Yes. Just like I would tell a male coworker- Nice tie! or Good job on the project. Or Thanks for helping. Share emotions? nope. Mention issues with mom? Nope. Ask for help with mowing the lawn? Nope. Ask for a recommendation on a car mechanic- yes. That's how I treated H.
