how can i save my marriage?

[Savemymarr]

Hi all. I am new to this forum, and I have read DB and DR plus a few other books. I am not entirely familiar w/ the abbreviations on this website but here goes. I need help. I know I am not alone bc we have all gravitated to this site for that very reason. I greatly appreciate all of the assistance and words of wisdom. I have visited the site many times, and I have finally struck up the courage to post about my sitch.

M: 42
W: 39
T: 18y
M: 15y
S: 6y, 8y
D: 4y, 12y, 14y
EA: from 11/08 to 2/09
PA: ?isolated meetings once 12/08 (?), definite hotel 1/09 (we talked. yeah right)
stayed together since w/ some counselling since
ILYBNILWY 3/10 (but stopped saying I love you 3/09)
still ML regularly
encourages me to meet other women, not interested, have not
phones/computers open but FB is closed and I don't know password
no sep yet, some talk only about D

My wife is definitely in WAS phase. We first met 1992, married 1995. not quite shotgun wedding but daughter on way when we wed. : ) was just finishing up grad school w/ long, long hours working to come. W says I changed when D was born. i was close to having PA/fling 6/97 but never consummated. W remembers clearly. she believes i have fooled around several times during the course of our marriage bc i am HD. but did not. flirt, yes. underwear off? no. EA? no. she had found an email to a friend where I referenced that attempt in 6/97. cont'd having kids, #2 now 12 y D. moved around 3 y here, 3 y there for my job w/ more children/responsibilities, now totalling 5! lights of my life.

was working long hours but always made time for family. W says I was distant/hard to reach/"in my own world." some truth to that.

finally in 11/08, I decided to buy car w/o consulting W. big no no. final straw i guess in a marriage that had been limping along in need of change. had also been working overnights or 3rd shift for the 2 years before that (since 9/06) so @ that time not home during nights much for maybe half the week. she states that that was a horrible time in her life for her. after I got stupid car (which i now hate bc of what it represents), she said "that's it!" freely admits it to me. that was the last draw in W's eyes. she went to some local women's meeting in town where she met newcomer to our town. apparently this woman grew up in same town where her huge flame from college grew up. they had gone out for over 3 y during college, hot/cold, lotsa difficulties, into his friends more than her. she broke up with him few months before college graduation. I struck up relationship with her during summer after college graduation and start of grad school. hot/cold @ first for maybe year but we ultimately clicked after one early break up 6-9 months in. great sex/passion. awesome connection. together all the time. she knew me and i knew her. she had grown up in abusive home w/ lousy father and neglectful/seemingly oblivious mother. we fit one another bc i am strong/supportive and she was looking for the same. then came the kids/work/life... u get the pic. she now says that she does not "need" that anymore and doesn't want it. funny enough when she talks to friends about what she wants in a man i have many of those qualities. i work hard outside house and hard inside. i wash, cook, clean, drive kids around. she does too. you can't have 5 kids in a busy house without stepping up to plate.

so she went on FB and found this old flame. they started texting/calling/chatting/FB'ing under my very nose. I was clueless. "in my own world." started 11/08 which progressed into EA 12/08 w/ >20 calls/day. found hotel rez for 1/09. know she also met w/ him for coffee or "sit down" 2 other times. don't know if also had more of sig PA or just one time in hotel.

started suspecting something not right when wife locked phone "to keep the kids out" but wouldn't tell me password in late 2008. finally started looking at phone records in late Feb/early March. what an eye opener!!! one bright Monday morning in March confronted her. showed her phone records. was a newbie in many ways. i called him right in front of her and asked if he had "F'd" her. he said yes and he was "sorry." keep the apologies. she left to pick up daughter from preschool and when she returned he called and said "nothing happened." phone records show she called him and probably coached him. i was prone to anger/rages hence she was probably scared. these are things i am working on. i know this. but i am also good man/father/provider/husband/friend. my positives outweigh negatives. i also stopped working the overnights. only occasionally when i have to a few times every 7-8 weeks on average. thank God.

last year we started counselling. was ok but ultimately not solution oriented but just a re-hashing of our relationship from past and our families. typical cognitive therapy. went on for 6 months? not much progress. still living same house, socializing w/ same friends except i started to GAL where i used to have none. she had already started working out in late 2008 and in early 2009 i followed suit. had let myself go up to that point. 6'3" 185 when married to 235-240 then. what a mess. waist ballooned out to 40-42" from 34-36" in early 2009. now in 6/10 am 206 w/ 36" waist. thank God for karate, p90x and weightraining. i needed to GAL and did for most part. not big on friends (she was supposedly my friend but down that path is extreme codependence) so right now am trying to find some. need to talk and unload but difficult to do. found God and church again. looking for faith i guess.

midway through a lousy 2009 realized she stopped saying ILY and did not kiss me on my lips. "no connection." still ML/having sex which she says i'm "great at." have snooped on cell phone/email/home phone w/ no sig contacts overall. but for past 6 months have been locked out of her FB acct. she changed the password. in my typical clueless fashion i watched but did nothing. just talked to a friend tonight who i finally had found the courage to unload to month or two back... was great doing it. plus she happens to be lesbian so her perspectives are unique and helpful. she said my W has to be having an EA. why else would she lock me out? i am her friend on FB and have list of suspects.

when i have asked her "if there is anyone else" over past year she says "no" rather vehemently. after reading DR, i have stopped snooping and stopped asking about "someone else." i have tried to follow the advice of lots of others here in hopes of salvaging my sitch. she said ILYBNILWY earlier this year (3/10?) but having been living w/ the truth of that since last year (although @ one point late last year she actually had a moment where she said she DID love me and wanted to make it work). that is long gone.

i make a good living, we have a nice house, she drives a nice car, stay @ home mom, goes to gym, hangs w/ friends, all good things. no job though which she had early on in marriage including from home office until 3-4 y ago when she gave it up. we do not want for much. life was and ?is good. now she has it in her head that she wants to move to florida from northeast to smaller, lesser expensive house (is that her trying to get me out on my own). talks about us doing this "together" but don't know if i believe that.

strangely enough she also tries to encourage me at times to seek another woman. not her. "she might make you happy in a way that i may not." i am basically very HD and she has always been LD. she now says that she does have moments of HD, and looks at other men saying to herself "hmmm that might be nice to hop in sack with him." i tell her i am not interested in other women. "too complicated right now." that makes me wonder about her and someone else. did it once why not do it again. ?FB. especially since i'm locked out?

she currently says she is open to counselling again. wants to go for herself as well. she is also interested in a job. add florida into this (where one of her FB friends happens to live w/ his wife and four kids), and who knows?

in sum, i have been married 15 y w/ our issues, usually relating to the typical roles of distant male in his own world w/ wife now WAS who does not wish to do it anymore. ILYBNILWY. have 5 kids. pretty nice life. have been lucky combined w/ some hard work. I adore her. I want for nothing more than to spend the rest of my days with her. I have embraced the idea of changing. we always do don't we? i started therapy for anger management too. i think i am a better man for it, a better father and better partner. i want a new marriage to replace this one. i have GAL'd. working on making more friends. making me a better person.

i try not to believe anything she says and less than 50% of what i hear. good advice. at times i am so sad, frustrated and disappointed in my sitch. i think that it is not enough. i have missed my chance. i pray to God for another opportunity. we still live together and have not separated. but is it bc she would have to leave her lifestyle behind? we have lots debt but doing ok. she knows our finances in and out. yet part of me wonders if i am being used financially? more than one person has brought up that very point. our 1st daughter is off to college soon w/ not too much $$ saved up. uh oh. add S or D with 2 new households? am i the only one who sees that many reasons why D is not the answer?

her 40th bday is coming up. we are going away w/ some friends (12 total including us and all of our kids) for few days. we are not paying for it, but obviously are staying at a small hotel. she acts like a teen @ times. i was thinking about planning celebration/party, but now do not think so. beginning to wonder if i am being used somehow. she seems very confused at times. sometimes happy, and sometimes distant. i used to be able to read her mind @ times in the past, and pretty much say what she is thinking. you do that when two people are in tune. there was a period there where we were NOT doing that (by late 2008?). definitely. now, we are back to doing it. i know it is my wishful/hopeful thinking that this MEANS something significant. probly not.

what do i do with my WAS of 15y, living in same home, ILYBNILWY, 5 kids, lotsa debt but doing ok, locked out of FB w/ her wanting to move to Florida (where my mom and sister happen to live BTW) because "we need to do something different" and trying DR/DB, having patience, trying to be cool, trying to GAL? i know i have forgotten things to put in here, but would welcome the insight and words of wisdom of the other DB'ers out there. is it possible to reconcile? do people really reconcile and renew their vows? with 5 kids? can it be? at times i cannot bring myself to believe that

[sosadoh]

hey Save- I'm sure you'll get some good responses from folks on here with helpful insights. It does sound like you have made some positive changes and I applaud you for that. How is your communication with your wife about this stuff? I get the impression that there has been a total lack of communication on the important stuff in your relationship- perhaps her shutting you out is a response to you withdrawing? If I were in your shoes (and I am not), I would suggest you two take your own vacation for a couple days- somewhere she would really like to go, have some fun, and see if you can have some real conversation too that is positively oriented toward change. You might tell her about your commitment to her, the M, and your own health and the steps you are making to make all these things better (she may not be reading your mind). I would also tell her that infidelity won't be tolerated, plain and simple. That means EA or PA, and maybe you need to spell out what an EA is. I think she'll respect you more if you really put your foot down. Folks here also mention Retrouvaille (sp?), but I don't know much about that.
Reconciliation is possible, but you may have a long road ahead of you. The good news is, it sounds like you've already come quite a distance.

[Savemymarr]

Hi Sosadny. thanks for the response. funny enough the W has said that our communication has been lacking @ times. i have tried opening up more and letting her in. it has been the hardest thing to pull back just when i want to tell her how much i love her. i am trying to cultivate patience like a madman. very HARD to do. : ) i have broached the idea of going away to her just she and i, which she has not seemed too open to. at times i have conveyed to her in not so many words that i am committed to her, to us and to our family. funny enough couple days ago my 4 y/o said the darndest thing, "daddy is in love with you." the innocence of little ones. from the mouth of babes.

i do like the idea of broaching the subject of infidelity, especially an EA. she is on her phone a lot w/ that FB app. i am locked out so who knows what's going on. could be nothing or could be something. i have asked and she has denied there being anyone else but then again she would do that even if there were i guess.

what makes all of this worse is our neighborhood. it seems like everyone is having problems. misery loves company, eh? worse yet are two couples, one divorced and one impending D. the first was bc of a MLC by the H and the 2nd was bc of both parties i guess. put my W in that crowd and who knows what they talk about.

i have tried to maintain my hope and good will towards her. having a PMA is key. would you want to be around someone who mopes and is constantly texting/chasing after you. i like to believe that i am a good father, provider, do not avoid household chores, am trying to GAL and CAN be a good friend/husband/confidante. again. i want a new marriage built within the ashes of the old. out with the bad and in with the good.

i hope u r right that recon is possible, and would absolutely agree that it will not be a short trip. all one can do is try. i have now started saying "nothing less" as in nothing less than the best from me, in my personal life, my professional life, my spiritual life, my family life... this forum and reading the various posts and suggestions has been very enlightening and helpful. i am open to all comments and insights from those who have travelled down this road before.

[Savemymarr]

need help... am working 3rd shift. do best thinking then. thoughts good, but emotions and decisions can be bad. no surprise. able to piece together things like no other time of day tho. discovered the EA/PA with college flame last year during 3rd shift.

so W just returned home from FL after our recent trip for my mom's 75th bday. some delay coming back for her due to flight cancellations. i brought my oldest home few days ago, and W came home last night w/ other 4 kids in tow. was saying on her FB acct that she did not want to come home. couple of posts like that. but hot to trot to move now. has been for past couple months. during trip to FL, talked about all of us moving down as one family unit to south Florida near my mom (was raised by my mom w/ no dad) and sis/nephew. not the greatest son/brother in recent times but this past year has made me realize the importance of family, especially not having to do with the W. was open to idea about move although wife 2 months ago strangely broached idea of her taking kids and moving from CT w/ me staying behind to work and try to sell our current house while she rents down there. our finances are not good. holding on. barely. funny enough, houses she's now interested in FL are on lower end of what we could probably handle. want to sell more expensive house, pay bills and lots credit debt and start clean with cheaper house bc no savings for college/retirement w/ 5 kids!! sound reasoning or so i thought except for me staying behind.

i had told her no way i could afford paying mortgage and rent. no $$. before trip, she cont'd to try and convince me but stopped. so while she was down there she looked at some houses anyway. i am or was open to it.

but when she returned home, i went on my daughter's laptop which W also uses. noticed on web browser history she wasn't just looking in south FL near where my mom/sis lives which we agreed sounded reasonable, she was also looking @ rental properties in Melbourne and Jacksonville. also looking @ jobs in Melbourne. SAHM but now wants job bc oldest daughter college bound 3 y, no savings, lots debt (unless sell house where we live now and downsize).

I have been locked out her FB acct for past 6 months bc W "want something for me." asked today if I could have access for peace of mind. rebuffed cold. hmmm... turns out a friend of hers on FB lives just outside Jville. company he works for has satellite in Melbourne. double hmmm... they grew up same town, went to elementary school together. i should not have done it but asked her today who is this guy? pretended she didn't know. they had previously exchanged lotsa comments but those have since disappeared. i am her friend but not his so cannot get on his page.

before was open to looking at FL but only if we all go as family. no stay behind for me. she had said ok. today explained retrovaille too during a walk together. did not sound interested. but in light of above i came out and told her today i do not think FL is option anymore. total 180 from yesterday. i probly should have been cool and stayed quiet. she was super UPSET. nice blow up. "that is why I do not like you. you are so negative. everything is what you want to do." i explained that the coincidence of being locked out of FB with w/ her looking for rentals in a town far from my mom and close to this mysterious man was too coincidental. i think if i move out of state w/ kids or allow her to take them, i lose protection from the state, don't I?

also found out later today that she has this acct called ping where can send untraceable texts.

am i reading too much into things? or is this too much coincidence? locked out of FB, this guy lives near JVille, same hometown, he has gone quiet w/ messages to her, her looking in Jville where we DIDN'T have plans to move, looking for job, complaining about money but also goes out shopping periodically w/ me saying no prob bc am a wuss, absolutely refusing me access to FB, that new service for untraceable texts and getting super upset when i said no to FL?

the best part is that he has 4 girls. we have 5 kids. so these 2 people are presumably willing to affect 11 other lives for what? i cannot imagine that she is that crazy. i am so glad to have seen posts from others bc she is acting like an alien. i do not know who she is at times. i cannot imagine that someone can be that crazed to fantasize about "escaping" like that. do they think they will live happily ever after like the brady bunch? for first time today found myself thinking bout severing ties. then wrote down reasons why marriage is important. divorce cannot be the answer. would be interested on the the POV of WAS.

would also like some advice like what should i do? what are my next steps? FL is NOT happening. i am at a loss for words. could not sleep today. maybe 3 hours in two blocks and worked last night and am working now. she was awake when I left for work and seemed quiet. my instinct tells me something is up. total EA isn't it? what can i do? i need to stand up for myselft but don't have plan except for saying no to FL.

[Coach]

am i reading too much into things?

NO! Your wife is having at least a EA. Is this current guy the same one from '08?

You need to bust this affair, earn your wife's respect back and kill the boredom in your marriage.

[sosadoh]

I agree with Coach. There is absolutely no reason not to let you see her FB account if there isn't something to hide. Bravo to you for putting your foot down on FL. BRAVO!!!! Tell her that until SHE takes steps to build trust, you can't sign on to something like that. Practice tough love. She is living in crazy land, and is being selfish and ridiculous. Don't enable her. Put up reasonable, loving boundaries and enforce them. That is how you gain respect. I agree that you need to bust the affair- I don't see this getting better until it comes to a crisis point, in which your wife is forced to see reality and the consequences of her actions. I would continue to present her with consequences for her behavior. She is disrespecting you, the marriage, your children, and herself. Keep working out, GAL, and communicating with her. This is the time to be strong.

[Savemymarr]

thanks Coach and sosadny.

to answer you Coach. no. almost like she is resurrecting these figures from her past. the guy in late 08-early 09 was college flame. they were together for 3 years more or less. he had wife/2 boys, decided that was it. jig was up. we live in same state.

this guy? found on FB. i HATE FB more than anyone can imagine. m sure not alone. they used to comment on each other's stuff, but from what i can see no more.

as for sosadny, how do i start to practice tough love? she IS living in crazy land. 5 kids? reading new book called the unexpected legacy of divorce. wow. talk about what i want to avoid at all costs. where do i start w/ the boundaries?

agree transparency is the order of the day. am so tempted to get something like eblaster. have noticed no secret texts to her phone since last week when noticed 6-7 in one day, the same day she was coming back home w/ kids. the FB thing bothers me soooo much. something HAS to be going on.

am trying to play cool cat. no biggie. had a good w/e all things considered. ML Sat morn actually. was very good. towards end she engaged me in passionate kisses (has not been kissing much if at all) and could swear she teared up like she actually felt something for me/betw us there bc was kissing her elbow where she has 2 small birthmarks which she KNOWS i cherish bc it is unique to her. Fday? great. like one happy family.

this is ALL terribly confusing. am doting, caring, working at my parent n anger, her friends have actually counselled her on staying in CT rather than impetuously going to FL! OMG. this is craziness. do people actually look back with hindsight being 20/20 and say "was i f-ing crazy there?" would be curious to know if a WAS actually has realization dawn on them later on?

u did say sosadny that sometimes people finally realize the consequences of their actions. really?

[sosadoh]

it looks like the tough love and boundaries are going to come into play with her hiding stuff from you. if she continues to hide her FB account and texts, then there must be consequences. Perhaps one of you needs to start sleeping on the couch until she agrees to be transparent. That's just a suggestion. and YES they do look back and say " i WAS f-ing crazy" my husband is at that place right now. but he wasn't able to see it until he saw the consequences of his actions. just wish i would have put my foot down a lonnnnnnggg time before I did.
you might want to read love must be tough. some of it is a little heavy on the religious side but there are also some very good points.

[Savemymarr]

cannot believe that it has been 2 months since my last post, though i troll the site regularly reading about the sitch's of others because it can be insightful. the W's bday was on july 4th and we had a nice family vacay, ML, seemed ok. but in the past several weeks she has grown emotionally distant again, no more ML (which we had actually been doing) bc "I do not want to do it for you anymore" as well as acting strangely @ times from disappearing from house for couple hours whilst kids r home to going on a bike ride just yesterday w/ one of her friends which i found out was not true. i called that friend and my wife when confronted said she had been to an attorney to "find out her rights."

do not know if i believe that. do divorce attorney's counsel clients w/ no money down? i KNOW she did not pay anything.

but the best part i leave for last... i finally installed a keystroke counter and was able to check her FB acct (she had locked me out months ago) and i discovered some devastating entries, i think they were from a chat w/ the worst: "you have me in every way."

obviously she is in the midst of @ least an EA if not PA. could be that character from last year w/ whom she had an EA/PA or maybe even someone new. cannot believe it!! this is a developing sitch bc i am just letting the software do its' thing.

i made the total boneheaded move yesterday tho when i confronted her about her "bike ride" to an attorney's office (supposedly). i told her that i suspected there was someone else (i had the keystrokes fresh from discovery yest in my mind). i did not let on how (thank God!!!!). she ABSOLUTELY denied it. got angry!! her reaction was strange. i have the proof that something IS going on. how can someone react in the opposite fashion and so very strongly? does that happen all the time?

i am SO confused and hurt and tired. i am so worried about our 5 (!!!) kids from 4 to 15 y/o. WTF are we going to do? how the F am I going to fix this sitch? at times i try to slow my thoughts down, i come to the forum hoping to pick up some words of wisdom from my fellow DB'ers.

i have always prided myself on my independence, but in the very moment i need someone (i do go to therapy and we have an "appt" tomorrow for MC which she says is for us to try to find common ground she we really need to D rather than "reconciling") i find i have no one. i feel so utterly alone. i want to open up to someone close, a friend but live in a relatively small town where most of her friends are mine too. i am afraid of letting out too much to someone we both know bc i am not sure how it will look, how she will appear to be... on the one hand i do not wish to embarass her with me getting some snickers bc i am sticking around for this treatment but on the other hand i want to shock her!!!! does she think this OM (who i suspect is married from some of her replies to him like "tired of keeping up the charade") is going to rescue her?

r they simply going to run off together into the sunset and live happily ever after? what about our 5 F-ing kids? the OM has kids (I presume for now). gosh. what a mind twister. ILYBNILWY blew me away. watching my marriage stagnate after that first EA/PA hit, despite trying the DB way (which at times i will confess to not following too regularly bc really hard to do as i know others will agree, so blame me?), now another EA if not PA? maybe same, maybe diff in the span of year to year and a half? unbelievable. how common is that?

i think allen a. said it best, i think she is trying to follow option A where you have the EA/PA and marriage both. i truly want B or C, all or nothing. go with OM or work on M. i do not have a problem confronting her but need more data. i do not have a name yet. i am not sure who the OM is. when i do i will out him to his W. his family. his job? no prob. the W has told me in the past when i relayed this to her that "it is vindictive and why ILYBNILWY."

where do i even start? i saw the diagram which was helpful, but i know allen and puppy have put out stuff in the past. there are of course diff approaches, the MWD way vs the tough love approach. picking it will be hard although i am suited to tough. but does that not push her away?

sorry about the long post. i have so many thoughts swimming in my head, the faces of my kids before my eyes, the smell of her hair, the memories of our past 15 y of marriage... poof... blowing away like on a breeze.

[TimeHeals]

Ummm cheaters usually lie. You're in a bit of shock right now. I'd save up anymore confrontations for when you are ready to confront her with proof and then ask her to move out.

You need space to heal, and you probably aren't going to do that while she is living with you and cheating (EA or PA).