Allen, unfortunately my wife is not willing to see a counselor or a family therapist.
I was getting the letter of NC ready to send off to the OM and she said just send it and then she left. She may have gone to see the OM or just to talk to him on her cell phone. I have a feeling she'll be gone for quite awhile. I'm waiting till she gets back to actually send the letter or the OM will know it's from me and not her.
I received a letter from a friend from church who has been following my sitch and he says this:
--------- "It appears that you are trying to give W an ultimatum which is move out or reconcile. From a Bible perspective reconciliation comes about from a person having a changed heart or a willing heart. Reconciliation is never forced God is not interested in making us into robots He wants our hearts.
What is necessary for reconciliation to take place?
“And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.” 1 Corinthians 7:11
God desires reconciliation and this cannot take place if the wife departs from her husband. Once you separate you are going to create several difficulties.
1. The children are going to be shared (tossed from one home to the other)
2. You will need a baby sitter ( added expense or being imposing for free help)
3. The chances of reconciling will be greatly lessened
4. It will open the doors for temptation for both the husband and wife
I would like to come back to some of the main points I have made before so please be patient with me. I will try a different approach which I hope will make sense.
It is my belief that your focus on the OM is understandable but let’s just for a moment say that W quits seeing and talking to him then what? So you think you have leveled the playing field but have you really? How do you solve the original problem which in some degree started this whole problem? W is unhappy with something you are doing remember she stated that “you will never change.” In order for reconciliation to take place this needs to be resolved.
I wonder if a better approach would be something like this. “W I understand that you feel that I will never change but if I was to get some counseling and if you would be patient with me I believe God can help me to change.”
This approach shows that you are willing to start the process of reconciliation you cannot throw the whole ball in her court. Marriage is a two way street. You are not totally innocent it takes both parties with willing spirits to serve and love God in order for reconciliation to take place.
The idea is to try to stay together to work out your differences.
I am trying to see this from W’s perspective and this is what I think she feels.
She feels like you are never going to change and have only proved it by spying on her, by invading her privacy by reading her emails, by dictating to her what you want her to do. All these things have only confirmed her belief that you are controlling and that you will never change which is closing the door of any hope in her mind. I think she is very unhappy in her marriage and because of this is seeking the OM for help she does not feel loved by you and now you have a broken trust. She would like to leave but does not have enough money to leave and is also torn because of the children. If I am right in my understanding of this she is suffering as much as you are. Who likes being married to a controlling person who does not listen?
Reconciliation would be the best thing but you would need someone who understands you and who can help you to see what you are doing that is alienating her affections. You both need someone who can help you work through your difficulties together. No talk no walk and talk cannot be forced you need to think of a way that would open your wife’s heart so that she will want to reconcile.
I don’t see that your ultimatum “move or reconcile” is a good approach at this time. You have to take responsibility for some of the problem and by forcing her to move out makes it appear that she is the whole problem. It is not my intent to be unkind but I think this is a more realistic view of the situation one which the forum has not addressed.
Please write me back as I need your input. I just don’t want to send this email into the air not knowing what you are thinking. We need to talk also in order to walk." ------------- To which I responded:
"I am not doing anything that merits her calling me a "control freak". It is very reasonable to expect her to not cheat on me emotionally or otherwise. If I do nothing, I am accepting the "OPEN MARRIAGE" where she treats me like dirt.
I have asked her many times what I can do to change and basically there is nothing I can do. She has stated that she is not attracted to me, she is not in love with me, never was, and never can or will be. I am not pursuing her - I have been leaving her alone. She has been very unwilling to work with me. I have learned that if I try to be affectionate, it backfires.
What can I possibly change? She will not tell me. I do not have an addiction of any sort. She keeps referring back to problems we had years ago. I am open minded and willing to listen. I am not invading her privacy anymore. What more could she ask? Is it not reasonable to expect that your spouse not have an affair? I believe that I must take some form of action as do the people on the forum. It is my only chance."
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Sorry Ken, but your friend is not a family therapist who specializes in this area - infidelity.
How would your friend handle this if your wife had a gambling problem or a drinking probelm? It's the same problem Ken - addiction.
It's handled in the same way - cut them off - no more enabling an addict. Get the children to safety and the loved ones to safety and let them fumble about on their own.
Offer them reconcilliation but ONLY under the agreement that they END the ADDICTION.
Does your friend have ANY of this experience at all to draw on?
Their points are points that have been argued on this forum and defeated over and over again.
Most of my advice comes from Penny Tuppy's work.. she DOES this for a LIVING.. BEEN there for MANY HOUSEHOLDS.. I suspect your friend has NONE of this experience.
Sorry, but I will trust hands on experience before a biblical quote.
Why press a wife to end contact who refuses to reconcile?
This is why...
-----------------------------------
Holes in the Roof
Penny R. Tupy June 2004
I love houses. Always have. A favorite weekend recreation is to tour the semi annual parade of homes or to check out the newest open models in the upscale developments around the area. During my thirties I was an avid member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation; my fun reading was made up of publications such as "Early American Life" and "Preservation." I've lived in an old house, built at the turn of the last century, and in an historic house of a modern sort – built in the `40's with design elements which were decades ahead of their time. For several years I had a recreational decorating and design business. I helped restore a Victorian, once facing condemnation, to near museum quality standards. I've painted concrete floors to look like marble, designed my kitchen from the walls out, and made strategic suggestions for the structural elements of our current state of remodel. I love houses. And in fact, when I travel to other parts of the country I am far more likely to photograph the residential architecture than I am to record the family on vacation. (Much to the chagrin of my children in later years..)
So, what does this have to do with marriage? Well, I live in the upper Midwest where Mother Nature mesmerizes us with thunderstorms, floods, and tornadoes this time of year. Not long ago I watched a newscast about a house that was damaged when a tree came through the roof of a house in one of our many storms. (The man sleeping just under the spot where the tree entered the house was unharmed but definitely shaken!) It got me thinking about the correlation between marriage and houses.
A marriage is much like a house. When it's new, everything is well kept. It's clean. The roof is good, the plumbing works well, the floors are level and unscathed. But inevitably, over time, things begin to break down. If one owns an older or historic home there are always things which clamor for attention – similar to a marriage that's been neglected or damaged by thoughtless choices, independent living and outright harmful actions. A marriage in trouble is much like a house needing significant repair.
It could be that the plumbing needs to updated, the wiring changed from old glass fuses to code compliant breakers, the walls may be cracked and the floors might need to be shorn up to make them level again. A marriage may have issues and conflicts surrounding in-laws, money, sex, child rearing, hobbies, or even pets. Like a house that needs significant work, those things need to be addressed in small steps, with thoughtful planning and oodles of frustrating starts and stops.
But what happens when a storm sends a tree crashing through the roof? No matter what the state of the home prior to that event, all work needs to stop and energies must be redirected toward emergency repair. The tree needs to be carefully removed, the roof repaired and any other structural damage investigated and repaired before work can resume on the pre-existing conditions.
This is exactly the same dynamic that occurs in marriage when there is infidelity. The marriage may need serious repair work in and of itself. But once an affair sends a tree crashing through the sheltering structure of the relationship all efforts directed at the underlying problems take a back seat to the emergency measures brought about by the affair itself. There's no point in attempting to fix the cracked walls and outdated electricity in the marriage when there is a tree protruding into the bedroom and the inner structure is exposed to the elements.
The affair partner must be completely and permanently removed from the relationship in the same way the tree must be removed from the roof. It's a horribly difficult and painful process. Often the affair partner has been a long time friend of one or both spouses. The loss of the friendship and the betrayal that is felt is heart wrenching, no matter what leg of the triangle one is on. But a friendship that has intruded into the intimate structure of a marriage can no longer be considered a friendship. Boundaries have been breached, and there is no way to return to a state of innocence. None of the needed repair work to the marriage can begin until this step is complete. Intermittently ending and resuming contact with an affair partner creates the same kind of damage as picking the tree up off the roof and dropping it back on again – it creates larger holes and more damage.
Once the affair partner is no longer in the picture, the hard work of repair can begin. First and foremost the gaping holes left by the affair must be mended. Depending on the length of the affair and how far into the emotional bonding of the marriage the affair partner was allowed to intrude, repair work could be replacement of the entire roof or simply a minimal patch job. The longer the affair, with the marriage being exposed to the damage of wind and rain, the more repair will be needed. The holes left by infidelity are things such as damaged trust, resentment, the inevitable withdrawal felt by the straying spouse when the affair ends, and stress on the underlying structure of the marriage.
Marriages rarely end in divorce due to the affair itself. But failure to repair the damage from the affair will almost without fail lead to complete destruction of the marriage. Marriages end because there the gaping holes remaining which continue to expose the relationship to more harm. Some couples can do the repair work themselves. These are the calmly methodical sorts who can read about the necessary measures and implement them in without becoming bogged down in the emotional tug of war recovery always entails. For most couples, as with homeowners, hiring a professional is indispensable in making sure the repairs are done well and in a timely manner.
As the holes are patched, the shingles replaced, and the structure found to be intact attention can once again be turned to the problems which existed before the tree made its untimely entrance into the lives of the homeowners. Those issues and conflicts may have become larger or more serious because of the damaged caused either directly or indirectly by the crisis of the storm – that's the nature of destructive events; they have far reaching consequences. Time, patience, persistence, and good professional help can make all the difference in repairing a storm damaged home or healing a marriage torn apart by an affair.
Does this friend know there is another man involved? All those quotes go out the window in cases of adultery.
The reason your W cannot be specific about you, is because she is making it up!
All WS's invent problems, create issues, blow things out of proportion, to justify what they are doing and to relieve their guilt. Tell your friend, that she must give up the other man before any therapist worth their salt will work on marriage issues with you.
Does he expect you to continue to live with her and OM? She will continue to find "reasons" to rationalize her behavior. You will build up so much resentment that your feelings of love and desire to save your marriage will wane.
She is deeply entrenched in wayward fog and talk will not get through to her. Only actions. She probably thinks you will slink off into night and she can replace you with OM. (They all do.) She has already told you she thinks the kids will be fine. (They all do.) She is living in a fantasy, and I believe the only way to get her to recommit to you, your family, and your marriage, is for her to LIVE her fantasy for real, not just what her foggy imagination says it will be like! Most A's do not survive reality.
Remember, it is not you, or anything you might have said or done!! Yes, you probably have not been the perfect spouse, but come on!!
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
The FT won't work with her unless she agrees to work CONSTRUCTIVELY with the marriage rather than DESTRUCTIVELY.
I think a few weeks w/o her kids or a future will start to wear on her.. if she even gets out the door. Her backing down and agreeing to "no contact" with OM here shows she was weak.
To be honest Ken I would have pushed the six months and regular family therapy sessions... she's SCARED Ken... she IS scared... she does NOT want to divorce you... it scares her to have to leave and be a part time mom... I honestly can't even see her getting out the door. She backed down Ken, you DID scare her.. why let her off the hook this easily? I would have pushed it much longer... you let her off the hook... why?
She might, but I can't see her walking out on her kids for this creep... No way.
I suppose three months woke make a diff... Unless OM is planning to leave his wife too and he just needed time... I woudl NOT have let her out the door to talk to him Ken.. I would have told her it ENDS NOW and that's IT..
FULL TRANSPARENCY NOW... She is very likely going to try to fool you Ken.
Get paperwork together showing that if she is caught cheating you are the primary caretaker of the kids... Any contact and she loses the deal... do NOT take her word for it Ken.
There are dozens of stories on this forum of people who were at your point and they get lied to (myself included), they just kept seeing the OM in secret and hid it much better...
Thanks Allen and WhatNow for those thoughts. Very profound.
I agree. I also think that we are in keeping with the Bible quote here. I am not really putting away my wife. I would be willing to welcome her back as soon as she breaks off the affair.
She did go to talk to the OM today by cell phone to tell him all about the three month plan.
Here is the letter I am sending to the OM (mostly taken from Penny Tuppy's from letter):
-------------
OM, The time has come to permanently end the relationship between you and me. In many ways this relationship was thoughtless and cruel.
In betraying my marital vows I was untrue to myself, my values, and my spouse. It is also unfair and unkind to you to create a relationship built on causing harm to others.
I have recommitted to my marriage and am determined to make amends for the hurt I've caused and to be the partner my husband deserves.
I am terribly sorry for all the pain I've caused, including to you and those around you. As I said, I was thoughtless and cruel. I hope that you will find healing and peace.
Because of the terrible offense to my spouse and the damage I have done to our marriage I am permanently ending all contact with you. Please don't contact me after the three months that I spoke about either. I need to be able to decide for myself whether or not I feel that I want to stop making an effort in my marriage at that time. I would ask that you respect my wish to regain my ethics and integrity and to heal my family. Please do not attempt to contact me in any way at any time.
My spouse has been told of the details of our relationship and he will also be told of any attempts at contact.
Once again, I am sorry for the pain I've caused to my spouse, my family, and to everyone else who has been affected by our actions.
Sincerely W -------------------
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
That is a great letter. too bad SHE didn't write it.
Maybe you ask her to hand write her own version of it. Or have her write one and when you see that her version says see ya 3 months show her this is what you had in mind. Already I can see that she has told OM that YOU have written him a letter and to ignore it.
I did the 6 month attempt. NC lasted 10 days and for the next 5.5 months he acted as if I was keeping him prisoner. When in fact I was the only one committed to working on M. 6 months to the day, H moved in w/OW, telling me he spent 6 months with me and needed 6 months w/OW! Today, 5 months into his 6 months, he says he is still confused. THE ONLY REASON he doesn't still hate me and blame me is the 180 I did (Mostly non-pursual). The only positive was the kids stabilized in that time.
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
Yea, too bad SHE didn't write it, but she won't. I actually give her about a 50/50 chance of maintaining her part of the NC deal, just because I know she has usually been inclined to keep her word in the past. Although with the OM, she has surprised me and has been more deceitful than I have ever known her to be before.
She did tell the OM to expect an email from me that she had nothing to do with, so that doesn't help at all. I hope she didn't tell him to ignore it. I think she really is willing to go through with this because of my actions this morning, but I might be deceived.
You said your husband felt like a prisoner for those 6 months, so I imagine my wife will feel like that too for the next three months. I have felt like the prisoner for the last 10 months.
She tells me, "But I'm not having sex with you!" I told her, "I can understand you don't feel like it right now, but you have to keep an open mind and give our relationship a genuine chance or I will feel that you haven't really upheld your part of the deal. You're probably just thinking, 'I'll just do my time, and then I can get my peaceful divorce!"
I had a discussion with my friend from church and he said I should think about, "What would Jesus do in this situation?" And I told him, "I don't see Jesus just quietly tolerating this kind of sin. I think he would take a stand against it." He saw my point in that and said, "Well you have to what you feel is right."
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
She did tell the OM to expect an email from me that she had nothing to do with
Then don't bother.
I would still stand by your boundary of NC, NC letter from her (handwritten by her) you see and mail, and full transparency from her or don't bother...she is just buying time to continue.
Ask your friend with the quotes to dig some up for adultery and he can give them to her!
Stop promising a peaceful divorce. Go down fighting!
Quote:
I had a discussion with my friend from church and he said I should think about, "What would Jesus do in this situation?" And I told him, "I don't see Jesus just quietly tolerating this kind of sin. I think he would take a stand against it.
Great response!!! You are really beginning to think on your feet! Yeah look how he handled the money changers! imagine if confronted by adulterers!
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
Yea, too bad SHE didn't write it, but she won't. I actually give her about a 50/50 chance of maintaining her part of the NC deal, just because I know she has usually been inclined to keep her word in the past. Although with the OM, she has surprised me and has been more deceitful than I have ever known her to be before.
She did tell the OM to expect an email from me that she had nothing to do with, so that doesn't help at all. I hope she didn't tell him to ignore it.
Why of COURSE she did. I predicted this as soon as I read your "she just went out for awhile" post, above.
A true no-contact letter must be written by the formerly wayward spouse, and NOTHING ADDED OR SUBTRACTED FROM IT, as it is either mailed or delivered by the betrayed spouse.
Ken, if she refuses to write it, then you pretty much have your answer as to whether or not she was sincere in her offer of 3 months of no-contact.
