Maybe I need to brush up on my boundary setting so I can properly understand what to DO in the case of emergency.
Again, it seems as though your missing the mark a bit about boundaries.
They are not used in cases of emergencies. They are a well layed out plan as to who you are, how you want to live and what is acceptable and what isn't.
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What action should I be taking?
No one can answer that but you and it should be all about you. How you can and can't live.
You have said this is unacceptable on one hand, but you also say your willing to live like this for the sake of your marriage. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this is what you end up with when your stuck in the middle of a whole lot of fear.
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DBing and ALL I DO is about saving my marriage. That's the sole reason I am here. Yes, saving myself is part of that my saving my marriage is the ultimate goal.
I completely disagree. You can't have a healthy R without a healthy YOU and living in fear, anxiety, anger, depression (the list goes on and on) is NOT HEALTHY.
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So what you (and I will use you trapt as a stand in for everyone since I am hearing a lot of this lately) are saying is that this action I need to take right now will help save my marriage? How so? OR are you simply saying, as so many have said before (mostly from outside the DB community), that it's intolerable to suffer through the kind of things my W is doing and it's time for me to get out while the getting's good?
Now I may be way off base here. This is just my opinion, take it for what it is worth. I feel by the time many of us arrive here. (this board) our old R is toast, gone...over It's not working at all for either party. Yet so many of us cling to it out of fear.
I'm not saying end it.... I'm not saying it's over forever. What I am saying is that sometimes things must come to an end in order to be rebuilt and you CANNOT fear that.
Hey ya'll. Not much progress in the past week, hence not much posting. I have worked on boundaries but one thing has become perfectly clear as I've defined, examined and expressed those boundaries (no dishonesty, no nights out with friends I don't know, wearing wedding rings); my W has NO intention of stopping whatever is going on.
Boundaries come with a plan of action otherwise they are just empty words. It doesn't really sound like you have a clear cut plan.
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No amount of rational, irrational or any other talk/action is going to change her behavior. She is 100% convinced that she's "entitled" to this behavior
They all act this way.
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Now trying to talk to her about anything close to R is met with total silence.
Time for a whole lot less talking and more doing.
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The thing that brought me to the MLC forum in the first place is that she is becoming more isolated from the family. Of course this may be largely in reaction to my increasingly erratic behavior (yes, I suck right now at DBing). When I am not operating from a purely negative emotional place (which is still fairly often) I've tried to talk to her from a non-accusing, non-confrontational place. I have refrained from talking about her behavior and just focused on my feelings, etc. In the end, she's become a wall to talk to. She says she's answered all my questions, and addressed all my concerns 1000 times over and no matter what she says, no matter how much she "proves" there is nothing for me to worry about, I will ALWAYS act this way and she's sick of it.
Again talky no worky.
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The saddest part is that I'm almost convinced she's right. So let's play total head-up-our-arse devil's advocate here. Let's say she's right, and I am an a-hole. Let's say she's also being somewhat honest, at least on the big points of there not being an affair (remember, head-up-the-arse mode here, I know it's a stretch), etc. So what. She's also right (pull head out now... real truth here) that I can't deal with whatever is going on, affair or not. I can't deal with the dishonesty. I can't deal with her new found disliking of wearing her wedding rings. Hell, I've even gone retroactive and can't deal with the fact that she's NEVER been one to use the phrases "we, us, our", etc. She's prefers the singular way to refer to everything in life.
Dude you can "what if" this thing till the cows come home. Bottom line......
Are you happy right now?
Is this shitt ok with you? Meaning do you want to live this way indefinitely?
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So here I am, listing to OT, Jack, Puppy and others tell me that I need to define and then adopt boundaries. Well, I know what they are but it's clear that my W has no intention of respecting them. So now what?
Again, I think you're missing the most important aspect of a boundary and that is the ACTION behind it. NO WAIVERING, NO BS'ING, you just start doing.
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So here we sit. An impasse. I am struggling mightily with where to go from here. I do want to save this marriage but I am seeing such apathy in my W it's scary. Maybe I am to blame, I don't know anymore. All I know is that I am consumed with anger, fear, dread, hopelessness and just about every other emotion that can cause your stomach to be in constant knots.
You've gotta get rid of this fear man. What are you clinging on to right now? A life full of fear,dread,hopelessness...???
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I need work on my side of the fence, especially since it may be time to start DOING something to respect those boundaries myself.
There is no maybe about it IMO. You've done the talking, you have your answers.
It is time.... however this needs to be carefully thought out and you need to dig deep and be strong about this. You have to get past all of this fear.
You can do this G!
What Trapt said. ^ Can't be said any better/clearer.
A boundary without consequences is no boundary at all -- it's more of a "geeIwishyouwouldn't."
Maybe I need to brush up on my boundary setting so I can properly understand what to DO in the case of emergency.
Again, it seems as though your missing the mark a bit about boundaries.
They are not used in cases of emergencies. They are a well layed out plan as to who you are, how you want to live and what is acceptable and what isn't.
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What action should I be taking?
No one can answer that but you and it should be all about you. How you can and can't live.
You have said this is unacceptable on one hand, but you also say your willing to live like this for the sake of your marriage. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this is what you end up with when your stuck in the middle of a whole lot of fear.
I noticed this same contradiction, Trapt, and am glad you pointed it out.
It's a sad reality of the human dynamic, GH, that once another realizes you "will do anything," they will usually do "nothing" to change things. It is only when they sense they are losing you, that they will break their own inertia, and truly begin the hard work necessary.
Boundaries are the things that make Grasshopper, hop around...
Trapt is correct though....
They can't be for any lame ass thing.
They protect YOU ......
What are the things that you can accept and live with ????
What are the things you can NOT accept in your marriage ???
BINGO. That's why I like to call them "Boundaries of Personal Integrity." They should be a very short list of things that are AUTHENTIC TO YOU, and are your core-belief "N.U.T.S." which, if violated, you simply cannot abide.
All of us would safely say "I cannot remain in a marriage where my wife has sex with another man in front of me, in my own home," or "where my wife cuts me while I sleep," or something similarly dramatic. And of course no one would make it a deal-breaker if their spouse were to, say, make funny noises while they chew their food.
Well in-between those two extremes is everyone's real "boundaries of personal integrity" points. And only that person knows what they are, and that's where it gets tough: "What are mine, and what am I willing to do about it if they are continually violated?"
I just read a very good (I think) article on setting boundaries. Since I have read a lot in the past, it was the perfect refresher for me. I totally get what you all are saying. I understand the frustration you have with me and how I am trying to "use" boundaries to affect change rather than protect myself.
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What are the things you can NOT accept in your marriage ???
That, to me (prepare frustration) is not so cut and dried, especially when considering DBing takes a radical approach in saying that we can choose (and I have been doing WAY to little choosing lately) to accept temporary situations in order to work towards a better marriage. Conventional wisdom says that affairs, dishonesty, etc, are deal breakers. DB says no. Now mind you, I have not read the book in a long time but the "eureka" moment for me was in realizing that for once this book was suggesting ways to work within the framework of a damaged marriage to try to repair it, not to just simply take stock and decide on whether to "d" or not to "d". I was SO sick of hearing that and DBing (jeezus I sound like a pitch man) showed me another way.
What I am hearing seems to be born of the former, fish or cut bait approach to marriage, affairs, issues, etc. I am not at all interested in that approach.
PLEASE READ THIS:
The facts:
I DB'ed through an affair 4 years ago. I tolerated an affair, watched in go on, and accepted that my marriage may be over but that I had to do major work to do on my side of things. DBing showed me how to do that. GAL, "as if", 180's, etc. All that was about getting away from focusing on the R and more on me. The "A" ended, W came back, admitted she was wrong and we moved forward.
Potential truths:
1) My DBing, or "accepting" the affair while I chose to focus on myself until such a time when things could be repaired gave my wife a feeling that she could do this again and that I would just sit by and watch it happen.
2) My DBing worked but since I strayed so far from what I learned during that time, my W started feeling all the same feelings (we discussed a lot after the last affair) she did leading up to her discontent before and had the same reaction. So maybe it's time for getting back to DB basics.
W just informed me that she's going on a trip to the beach with "friends" tomorrow and likely staying the night. I didn't have much time to think it through and went solely based on that article. It said to personally define what actions will be taken but feel free not to share that with your spouse in total detail. So I said "It is not acceptable that you go on an overnight trip with a group of friends that includes a man you may or may not be seeing, but regardless is someone I don't know and is by all definitions harmful to our marriage. If you do this, I am just letting you know that my behavior in our relationship will change dramatically."
She immediately accused me of threatening her and hung up on me shortly thereafter.
There was convo before and after that statement of my boundary where she claimed once again that I am over reacting and that these are just friends. She blamed me and said her behavior that seemed dishonest was because of how I act anytime she goes anywhere with anyone.
I have to tell you, I don't feel any better having set that boundary. I did do it calmly and the way I think I was supposed to, and hopefully I will do what I said. If she goes on this trip, I will immediately suspend all "normalcy" in our marriage. We will parent together, put on a good show for the boys but after that, my interaction will be cordial, nothing more or less. That will be a HUGE change in our M since I tend to be taking care of her a lot, and tending to her so-to-speak.
We'll see. I am 99.9% sure she will go we we'll see if I have the stones to do what I need to do.
I am still not sure this is DBing or even what I want but in the moment, after SOME thought, it seemed true to my innermost feelings about things.
Look, a deal breaker is something that you can't read in the book.
The book is a guideline for YOU to handle things. And it is also open to doing things that work. It recognizes that all situations are different and there is no cookie cutter approach to things.
Your deal breaker is just that......yours.
It appears that you are struggling with an interpretation of boundaries that you can apply to you.
It seems simple to me, although I am aware that everyone does not read and learn the same.
Boundaries are defined , in my mind, as......
Any situation that violates my own personal core beliefs, or values ( morals) that define me as a person.
They are the things in my soul that define my person....
They will be different for every individual...
And should NOT be interpreted the same in every situation. That is why it is important for YOU to define those things for you.
I like you. I dare say yours is the voice that most often speaks directly to me and gets through the best. Maybe it's that you seem to have a touch more hopefullness left in you.
Oh, and I forgot to point out...
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I feel by the time many of us arrive here. (this board) our old R is toast, gone...over It's not working at all for either party. Yet so many of us cling to it out of fear.
I'm not saying end it.... I'm not saying it's over forever. What I am saying is that sometimes things must come to an end in order to be rebuilt and you CANNOT fear that.
THIS is my greatest fear; that so much of what I am told on this board is based on people's jaded opinion and not nearly enough on reinforcing the hopeful messages that CAN be passed on from DB or other sources.
My marriage is NOT in that place... yet. I suspect people are often overlooking that (not you OT and their advice is just the same blanket advice given to those who, as pointed out, are in radically different sitches than mine.
Oh, and that part about not being afraid to end things... to me that's utter bull-hit. NOBODY can ever not be afraid to end a marriage, especially when there are kids involved. If you can say you are not afraid of that, then you are not human. Sorry.
Ok, back to you Jack. I think you are right. I was put in a situation where I FELT the need to throw up a boundary and then just went with that feeling. To be honest, I may be all those fluffy things you talked about. I don't know yet.
The absolute hardest thing about all this, and the thing that is 100% different from my own past experience with my W's affair, different than most of YOUR experiences with your spouse's MLC/affair/etc, is that other than these things surrounding the "affair" if it is that, she is TOTALLY NORMAL towards me. Loves me, is affectionate, we ML, talk well (when not about R), laugh, etc. That is TOTALLY different than last time. Oh, and to this point, she has not admitted an affair at all. Last time she had no problem doing that and then carrying on.
So all these things I am doing, all this reaction, is based on just a few points of contention, albeit large ones. There is none of the context (no ILYBNILWU, no lack of intimacy, no change in overall R behavior, etc) that usually accompanies this. So I feel like I am on an island, making huge decisions based on very little evidence, very little anything other than my feelings that I am sure are in some way tainted by my past experience.
SO yes Jack, I may lack the balls to do this simply because I lack the ability to ignore all the "positives" still left in my marriage and focus on the big negatives. Before it was easy because there were few positives.
I feel like if/when I do this (enforce the boundary) it will lead to a lot more negative that was otherwise absent.
Thanks for chiming in. Stick around, I may need you over the next couple days.
and their advice is just the same blanket advice given to those who, as pointed out, are in radically different sitches than mine.