HELP! One step after Ultimatum..and the book ends

[Goingdownhill]

Hi everyone, I haven't posted my whole sitch but I will when I have time. Essentially a 3 year EA via the internet with Ex girlfriend from HS in another State using secret email accounts. Culminating with a letter to me a year ago, I'm leaving you by end of year. DBed my butt off. No changes, contact continued. Then I basically gave the 'no contact' and go to counseling ultimatum at the end of January. Last week while I was out of town, he contacted her again. I gave him the below letter today. Note: I have evidence of the contact.

I need advice. What do I do next? Is saying separate the right answer post-ultimatum?

4/22/2010


H, I'm very excited for you to get your dream to go to boot camp and join the military. Your respect for your father, uncles, history and wars and understanding of the fight for freedom is something all Americans should possess. But they don't. You are a cut above when it comes to that. Your kids are proud of you. I am proud of you!

That said, when you return I’d like us to set aside some time to discuss a temporary separation or time out for us and how that could work. I believe I need some time to think things through in our marriage and our future. I believe you do too because you have not been honest with me or yourself. There are some reasons why.

In my heart, I believe that you contacted your double ex while I was in LA for more than a spotting scope like you said. You committed you wouldn’t less than 90 days ago. I feel you are not being honest with me about the context of those discussions and I am not sure what else you may be hiding? My gut feeling tells me that you had unprotected sex with her that would put me and my personal health at risk. Did you? If you are afraid to admit these things to avoid conflict and hurting me it's too late for that. You already hurt me.

I needed you to never, ever contact her again. To change your behavior. And I feel you really needed to get some counseling on your own. You have tried for awhile and I recognize that. But it’s only for awhile and it never lasts, and you contact her again. Infidelity is an addiction and fantasy that is hard to break and you haven't gone to counseling to deal with it. Generally, it has no foundation based on ‘real love’ as counseling will reveal. And without counseling odds are likely that you will go back to your old behavior patterns again….when I’m away, when things get tough on us or when you feel aroused. Again putting me at risk.

I need honesty and trust as the foundation of a marriage and a faithful husband. For awhile now I’ve felt you cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Including, honesty with everyone around you. But in turn you demand that of your kids and of me. But not of yourself.

So we need some time from this existence to evaluate our situation. It isn't that I haven't tried 150% to save our marriage and our and our children's lives because I know I have. I have given it everything I possess in my heart and soul. It was a shot in the dark and now I need to come to terms with whether you would sign up to do the hard work to change. At this point, it looks uncertain. Although, I still hold hope in my heart. I just feel I can’t live with someone with an addiction and fantasy that would put me at risk. I can’t live with lies. I didn’t marry a person, just like OWH, who you encouraged her to leave to be with you for similar reasons, and who is now dead. I can’t be in a place where you do not care enough about me to do the right things to protect and take care of me, my body, your wife, the mother of your kids and lover. I entrusted you with all of me and my life. And if you don’t have it in you to care of that which is most precious to me, then someone else needs to and that needs to be me.

I do hope that you have fun at boot camp. You shouldn’t be nervous. You are still strong and able bodied at 46. You always could outperform most men at any age. And you are so very smart. Just be careful and don't get hurt. I love you immensely. I am a good girl and deserve more, I deserve honesty, and to be treated better by my best friend, husband and lover.

Love,

Me

[Goingdownhill]

I also have evidence of unprotected sex with her and she has an STD HSV2 from last August. I should have left before then.

[Marked&Healed]

I also have evidence of unprotected sex with her and she has an STD HSV2 from last August. I should have left before then.

UGH! Have you been tested?

I think the letter is too long, personally. Will he listen to it? Probably not. How addicted is he? Is he saying she's his soul mate, or is this a fling type of thing?

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Blccccch!

Too long, too nice, too preachy.

Puppy

[Goingdownhill]

Well, Passenger & Puppy,

Both of you think too long. So I screwed that up I guess. Its much shorter than the 9 page letter I gave him in the middle of last summer and then left. I don't know if he'll read it. I doubt it will make a difference at all.

He thinks she is his soul mate. The love of his life. The woman that kept him from giving to me all of him for 18 years. Its that same old BS that cheaters use to justify their actions. What the hell is a soul mate anyway. We don't know if it even exists. Its just good rhetoric to use to justify a position here on earth.

So what should I have done different. Where do you go after you've said stop, no contact and he won't. Do you separate? We still have physical intimacy, always have. Do I just cut him off?

I'm here to find answers really. I've been here for 3 years looking for answers and much of it has helped me. I think I am strong enough to leave thanks to Michelle and DB. Just not sure that is what I need to do.

My best friend thinks leaving won't make a difference anyway. My counselor hints around that he is a narcissist. I tend to believe both of them.

So what is a girl to do?

[Goingdownhill]

I did have my first round of tests done, all clear. I had another done yesterday and they want me back in 3-4 months cause the antibodies take time to show up.

I can't even believe I'm having this conversation really. I'm sure there are worse situations though.

[Goingdownhill]

Puppy,

You always give great advice on this site.

So you say letter is too nice. Why too nice? Isn't that what DB tells me I should be. The nice person he wants to be around so I don't run him off? Don't ask about the affair or the OW? Detach but be nice in return.

Did I miss something in those pages I've read about a 1000 times now?

GDH

[Puppy Dog Tails]

It's just my opinion, GDH. I happen to disagree with much of the DB stuff when an active affair is going on -- I don't think it's strong enough.

If your husband is getting some of his physical and emotional needs met with OW, and the rest of his physical and emotional needs met by you . . . why would he ever change? He has two doting, caring, affirming, validating women hot after him.

Read Britt54's threads, and Pearharbor's, and see if you can get them to look at your sitch. They both tried the "nice" approach, and got walked all over. Once they'd had enough and got tough, their situations turned around dramatically.

I'm not saying to be an ass, please don't misunderstand. I'm saying DON'T BE HIS BEST FRIEND, and don't keep doing the WIFE things when he is currently rejecting you as his wife. PULL BACK on those things that you do, treat him civilly, and start doing more for yourself.

Once he thinks he's gone too far and might be losing you, you'll start to make some progress. It's just basic human nature.

Puppy

[Goingdownhill]

PDT,

Thank you for clarifying this! I need to know this. I think you are right except that the DB worked in the beginning to make him stand up and take notice that I was making changes. Lost weight, working out, died my hair blonde, maybe could be there to meet his emotional needs. Limited hand holding by only ask once for his involvement with the kids. The detach, detach, detach. And GAL. Took a snowboarding lesson at 44 yrs old, went skiing, went windsurfing, traveling, etc.

But you're right. Everyone is saying stop having the physical with him. He basically get emotional from her; physical from me. I need both. I know that. And actually we all do need both. So I need to stop making it easy on him.

He says he wants to be with me forever, with the kids, etc., he love me but then he slides right back into her. Of course all on the computer. I've tried to explain that she is not real. All the stuff we go through in counseling. I'm sure it falls on deaf ears.

I guess what you are saying is apply tough love like you would with an addict. Tell the parents, the kids what is going on. Make him feel some angst. It might not work because my IC thinks he may not have the capacity for remorse or empathy because he could have narcissistic tendancies. Which is why he eventually had a PA with her and unprotected and she has HSV2. I can't believe I stayed until thi point.

I've researched narcissism and realize if that is what he is there is not much hope for someone that has those issues to change or feel anything towards me. I was a tool; she is a tool; when they are done with us; they just move on.

GDH

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Yes, that is what I'm saying -- "tough love" along WITH the DB stuff of GALing, detachment, etc.

From my own personal archives:

Throughout all of these "tough stances," I maintained a "loving detachment" towards my wayward wife. Oh, we had our moments -- three or four real blow-ups -- but for the most part, we managed to keep things civil. I laid out some boundaries (no family finances used to enable your affair, no TMing or phoning OM from inside our home, no TMing or phoning OM in front of our sons, from ANYWHERE, if you're going to come home after 1am, don't bother coming home, etc.), and I must say, she respected them almost completely.

The "loving" part of "loving detachment" comes easier for you, trust me, when you maintain full intel ("snooping") and you hear and see the things that I heard and saw. But I did try to "shine a light back towards the marriage, even as I never wavered from my Main Boundary ("I will not live in an open marriage") and my sub-boundaries mentioned above. I would do occasional loving Acts of Service for my wife, such as pulling her car in the garage late at nite, or covering her with a blanket when she fell asleep on the couch, kissing her on the forehead, etc.

I believe that this "hybrid" approach -- aggressive confrontation & exposure, firm boundaries, cut off all financial enabling, strong legal stance; coupled with DBing principles such as GAL, "be the better option," 180s, etc. -- is what works best when there is active infidelity involved.

Reasonable people may disagree, but this is what worked for me, and this is also what I have seen work in my time on these boards, as well as my study of literally thousands of affairs.

Puppy


I'm not trained to know anything in depth about NPD, but those that I know who are dealing with it say it's a rough, rough row to hoe.

Puppy