Things That Matter

[ClingingToHope]

God, that's just awful.

I've been trying to think how my dad felt. By the time the D was final, my mom was living with a guy. That one didn't last. She ended up getting married twice and having another long-time live in boyfriend before she died 12 years ago. So that was at least four serious relationships in about about a 16-year stretch.

I never considered any one of them my dad. There was only one. Boy it had to hurt him though. My mom ruined his relationship with my sister and that kind of drove him off the deep end. He started drinking heavily, got some DUIs and had to move away.

I love my mom but she was really out to get my dad after the D.

Don't let her win. Stay the course. In the end, your sons will realize the truth.

[Virtually_Handsome]

Well, I've been sitting on my hands all evening, but I have to interrupt the self righteous pity party for just a moment. I wouldn't do it, but for the kids.

First, if you stay on the path you are on, I could see you losing custody completely. The sad part is that I'm not convinced that would be a bad thing, at least for a time. I really think you need to get some good help with the issues you have. Your anger, your extremely passive aggressive behavior, and who knows what else. And losing custody might be the motivation you need to actually look at yourself.

Second, when you are talking with your kids, remember that you are the adult. There is no reason that you should have been asking your son questions about the wedding. The only reason to ask if it was a church wedding was so that you could judge your XW, and make sure you son knew it. Totally passive aggressive. And telling him that HIS MOTHER's wedding meant nothing was completely wrong. You are all upset because you believe she said she would never get married? There's no way you could have really believed that, it's the kind of thing almost all of us might (and probably have) said at some point during in a divorce. But here's something I bet you didn't think of. You just showed your son how you treat people who do things that you don't agree with. And guess what, at some point, he is going to do something that he knows you won't approve of, and now he is a lot more likely to do it behind your back.

In the parenting class that I had to take as part of getting divorced, I learned (actually, I think I already knew it, but I was reminded) that young kids know that they are a part of both of their parents. So that any time you attack the other parent, to the child you are also attacking the child, in their mind. Their identities are hugely intertwined with their parents.

This woman that you hate so much (and I don't see much way around that) is the mother of your children. You are divorced, you don't have any right to control her any longer, not that you ever did. The only real expectation you can have when she has the kids is that they are safe. Other than that, what they do when they are with her really isn't anything you need to be worried about, and the same goes for her.

I'm sure, based on your previous posts, that you will take this as not supporting you. But sometimes support has to come in the form of telling someone things they don't want to hear. I do support you, but even more I support you kids. Please, take a good look in the mirror, for them.

[NoCodeBlues]

vh,

Despite what you may think about me, I can appreciate much of what you have just said here. I have been for some time staring in the mirror and am not entirely happy with what I see. Yes, there is anger, but not hatred. I am working on it, struggling with it. That's why I am here and one reason why I talk with my friends in our bible study support group.

What I am surprised by however is your vehemence in raking me over the coals. When I don't recall your offering any input to me before this. And up to a point your statement seems measured and reasonable, but then it goes way beyond.

Why would you even consider me possibly losing my children to be better for them? Why would you entertain that as a welcome outcome? What would motivate such an extreme impulse to suddenly post something so bombastic like that to me in this thread? Why so little tact?

I'm sorry, but I now have to question your motivations. Which is unfortunate because it colors whatever point you're trying to make.

Perhaps you can elaborate on where you are coming from in this? Are you the child of D? Did one of your parents bear resentment towards the other? Or are you the parent in your own situation to which you are projecting?

In any event, I thank you for your opinion.

[kat727]

NoCode, I am a child of divorce. In a very unusual situation at the time, my Dad got full custody. I don't know my biological mother, have never met her to my knowledge and don't have a whole lot of interest going there.

I probably don't know the whole story and maybe someday I will meet her, but from the letters she has sent on random occasions, I can't expect the truth. I feel deep down that I turned out a better person for being with my Dad. He was strict and over protective. I don't remember him ever talking about her either good or bad. Most of what I know of her came from my Dad's Mom.

My point is that you need to somehow make peace with your situation. It is not your place to condemn these people, GOD can handle that on his own if he sees fit. You don't have to love her, like him but you do love your boys and if you want to make a positive impact on their lives from here on out, you need to let all that cr@p go.

After they have been with her, just ask if they had fun and tell them that you are glad to have them this week, evening or whatever time you are looking at. Then be their Dad. Do all the things you love to do together. Show them what the high road is.

Hugs, kat

[Virtually_Handsome]

Mr. Blues,

Well, I got your attention, so that's something. I have posted before, but that's not really important now.

I don't want to see you lose your kids. But I could sure see it happening. I would much rather see you change your way of doing things now. Coming here is good, talking to the men in your Bible study is good, but I do think you should seriously consider doing more. From here (and all I can go by is what you've written), it seems that both you and your XW are so intent on stabbing at each other that you have forgotten that every time you do it you are putting the kids in the middle. She's not here, so you get to hear me jump on my soapbox a bit.

No, nothing like this has ever happened to me. But I read it and I hurt for the kids, and that's why I posted. The way you live now is the example you are setting for your boys. I am pretty sure you can do a lot better.

I probably won't post to you again. I really don't get a kick out of telling people things they don't want to hear. But as a father of four boys myself, well, someone needed to speak up for the kids. Please try to take them out of the middle of your war with their mom. I know that she uses them as well, probably even more than you do. But you can only control what you do. And it just might be that if you change she will change. Which is one of the stories of DB, after all.

Most of all, good luck to you, and I mean that sincerely.

[bright_new_day]

I have to chime in a little here too. My kids are older than yours and are for the most part aware of what is/was going on. One thing I have heard from them, individually and on different occasions, is that their dad (and his new wife) bad-mouth and belittle me, and that really bothers them. I have tried to stay away from saying things about him or his new wife. If asked I have answered their questions factually and tried not to include opinion or judgment. A direct effect of that is that my kids have been able to draw their own conclusions on what has happened and I believe they respect me more for having taken the high road. when you belittle their mom, you are in their eyes belittling them as well, because they are a part of her as well as a part of you. They can love her without loving you less, and they will love her as their mom even if they grow to disagree with her choices and actions.
Be the person that you want them to grow to be; strong, caring, non-judgmental.

[NoCodeBlues]

Okay, point taken.

But let me give you (those of you wielding the 2x4's) a counterpoint. I sense some of you are not interested in considering the actual circumstances and will assume the worst in my actions in motives. That's your prerogative. But I am still going to offer this anyway, as what can happen if we take your prescription too far.

My brother is right now, this very moment, taking the absolute non-confrontational path that you propose. He is constantly singing the praises of his STBXW and doing everything humanly possible to not rock the boat. He strongly believes, as many of you obviously do, that keeping the peace "for the sake of the kids" is paramount. He feels his kids will be best able to survive their D if he uses the utmost in diplomacy and makes every effort to be supportive and friendly with their mother.

Do you know what the result of this has been? Has it brought peace and comfort to his three kids lives? Sadly, No. Not at all.

My STBXSIL has taken full advantage of this so-called accord between them to have open R's with other men -- they're still M'ed, mind you. She has taken to maligning my brother to everyone they know, much as my xW had done (is doing), although not to their kids, thankfully (at least not yet.) My brother refuses to call her on this and even asks us to not discuss it, again, "for the sake of the kids."

And do my nieces and nephew feel safe and secure and have full confidence in their parents. Outwardly, yes, maybe. Inwardly, no.

Furthermore, my eldest niece, the teenager, now sides with her mother. This is a bright lovely girl with a great head on her shoulders who has historically adored her father, my brother. But now she holds contempt for him -- for not standing up for the M. She still loves her father, but because he is taking the very road you profess, especially in light of her mother doing things that are obviously wrong to anyone with eyes, she has lost all respect for him.

But despite the fact she disproves of her mother's new lifestyle, she loves them both dearly, but she no longer feels as secure with her father -- he has abdicated his authority and his moral standing. My heart pains for her -- her parents have checked out of their responsibilities to their kids -- and they were such good parents before this.

So, I suggest you truly consider these (admitted) extremes before condemning my actions, especially as limited a snapshot as I can possibly give you here. The fact is I have to steer a safe course between these two extremes -- between the outright belligerence of my xW and the peace-at-any-cost foolishness of my brother.

I can't say I have been all that successful in charting a course between Scylla and Charybdis. It is not an easy thing to do. But there has to be a balance, and I am not hearing of much balance right now from you 2x4 wielders.

Believe me, I have considered much of what you have said. All of you, from both sides. I duly warn you that I am not swayed so easily by those from either camp who claim to "represent the interests of the children", much less my children. You'll both have to do a lot better than that.

If you want to engage me, you'd better bring more that your own feelings and anecdotal evidence. I am struggling with my own emotions through all of this, of which I am direly aware. And harsh, emotional diatribes are not going to help me contain myself any easier, even if you truly believe what you are saying, much less show me a better course. I welcome your intellectually honest, reasoned discourse, but my patience is wearing thin for simple platitudes that come from pop-culture media and books. I've read those books and they are sorely lacking.

I want my sons to grow up to be better than either of their parents. I want them to grow up to be strong, caring, non-judgmental -- but also discerning, wise and moral.

[kat727]

Hon, we aren't talking about your brother we are talking about you. Your situation, your kids. You ARE divorced. You are putting those wonderful boys in the middle, they are almost afraid to say what happens at each house as it will hurt or spark anger in the other parent.

Teaching your kids morals is great but no where are we told to use the other parent as the sinner as an example. Your ex is a troubled soul. Realize that and do all you can to teach your kids the right way. Harboring all this anger and pain is no way to do it. You are destroying yourself in the process.

kat

[bright_new_day]

NCB, I definitely do not advocate praising your X or being friendly to keep the peace. I am not friends with my X or his new wife. I speak to him as little as possible, and I do not acknowledge her existence for the most part. All I am saying is that saying things like her marriage means nothing because she does not value marriage makes you look petty, and that may stick in their minds. I will never abdicate my authority, but I also know that my authority does not extend into their home. As long as I know that my children are not in physical danger, it is not my place to say what can be done or said in their home, just as it is not his place to say what can be done on my home. I do not ask what they do or say in their home. My X has been married to her for two years and I have no idea where they got married or if the kids were even present. It's not my business. I know that he has said $h!t about me to my kids, but I have never said a word to him about it, because it would be pointless and would probably actually make him angry at the kids for telling me. There have been times when the kids say things that make me want to point out how much of an a$$ their father can be, but I bite my tongue. They have talked to me about problem with im and I just say I am sorry that they are dealing with that, etc... They will have to work out their relationship with their father on their terms, it is not for me to dictate. The things you dislike that your wife does with the kids are not any better when done for your purposes.

[Virtually_Handsome]

I'd like to think that there was a middle ground between Mike Tyson and Ghandi. But if I have to err, I'll go with Ghandi.