Okay, time for an update on my sitch. Not sure if there's still anyone here who remembers me, but I haven't posted in a while (2006). I was a pretty active poster from about '03 till '06. Just so you don't need to wade through all my old posts, here's my story outline:
Married in '79, we were each others' first and only significant attachment. Courtship ('76-'79) was a heavenly time for both of us. We did do sexual things during courtship, but didn't go "all the way" till after the wedding. Looking back, things started to go south right after the wedding, from what I remember. I know now that she was LD from the beginning, and she started putting up walls almost right away, because as she put it, she felt somewhat overwhelmed at the depth of my desire. Perhaps I was clumsy, also, but I have always made sure I'm an attentive and generous lover, and I always wanted to make sure she was satisfied. She just didn't want it nearly as often as I did. So there were problems from the start.
When we started trying to have kids, we discovered that fertility was an issue, and we ended up having to use fertility drugs for the first 2 kids. That made the sex thing difficult, because for months on end, it was pretty much "on demand" when the "time was right", and not at all at other times. That led to negative feelings about sex on her part. After the second was born, she wouldn't let me near her for over a year, and even after that, things in the bedroom were far from good, and we ML very seldom for a long time. Eventually, we had a heart-to-heart (me instigating), and she agreed to once a week. A month or two of that, and the third was conceived (surprise, surprise!), and immediately after finding out she was pregnant, she would no longer ML with me at all till after (LONG after) the baby was born.
I lost my job 2 months before #3 was born, and the following years were very hard. I was trying to rebuild my career, and she was emotionally dead. After 5 or 6 years, I finally got back on track career-wise, but the bedroom sitch never really recovered.
Over the past 10 years or so, mostly at my insistance, we've been trying to improve our relationship, but it's been a very long and frustrating road. We saw a counselor in 2000 (neither of us was impressed with him), then again in '02 (I liked her a lot, but W felt she was taking my side over her). W saw a counselor alone in '04 (I was posting here a lot at that time), but for the past few years we've been occasionally trying to work on the R with no real progress. In fact, a couple weeks ago, I found and read a journal the '02 counselor had us do, and I could write the very same things right now - nothing has really changed.
So what's been happening with me in the past few years? Well, when I went back and reviewed my last few postings from '06, I was fairly optimistic that change was at last at hand, but alas, I have to report that once again, years have gone by with no progress at all. I've spent the past few years once again pretty much on autopilot, visiting the "palmer twins" on a regular basis.
In '07, I had a colonoscopy, and the doc removed a polyp. A week later, it started bleeding, and I went into emerg at 10:00 pm. Overnight, I lost a lot of blood - they gave me 2 units the following day, and during the night there was a bad spell where I lost consciousness and woke to find a team of worried docs working on me. I was in hospital from Monday night till Thursday evening that time, then the very next week I had an inflamed galbladder, and ended up having emergency surgery. I was off work 2 weeks, and couldn't do any lifting for 3 months (they also fixed a hernia while they had me on the table). All in all an interesting adventure. Since then, I've just been busy at work, and nothing much happening on the home front.
Last October, we spent a weekend in Niagara Falls in a fancy hotel, 39th floor, overlooking the falls, it being my hope we might begin to rekindle things if we were away from the kids/house/hassles for a couple days and nights. No real luck. We did ML, but the sex was lousy.
So, we've ML exactly 3 times in about the past 18 months, and things finally came to a head (again) around New Year's. One thing that came out of that was that we're making one more attempt at counseling, and we've had one session so far (Jan 12). The second session was supposed to be 2 weeks later, but W got a bad cold, so we had to reschedule. The second session is this coming Tues. I'll be posting here how it goes. One assignment we had after Session 1 was to each draw up a list of "We" statements describing the Ideal Relationship - i.e. what we want our R to look like going forward. Then take our individual lists and combine them into a master list, that we both agree on - i.e. a "Mission Statement" for the R. Well, I had 24 statements in my list, mostly things like "We laugh together" and "We go on a date at least once a month", but two of them were "We make love often and joyfully" and "We have make-up sex when we argue". Guess which ones didn't make the master list, lol...
Anyway, that's the story in a nutshell. At this point, I'm thinking that really our issues aren't about sex at all, but perhaps the real issues go very deep, and are perhaps fundamental to our R. Maybe I was actually fooling myself all those years ago, and maybe we were never really meant to marry. Dunno. I'm looking back at a very long history of not having the R I want, although she's mostly seemed satisfied with it, so if past performance predicts future behavior, maybe I've been flogging a dead horse way too long. I'm hoping this next round of counseling will help to clarify things. I do know I can't go on the way we've been going.
Oh, and just so you know, I've been working really hard over the past 10 years to resolve this situation. W and I have read a small library of books, including those by MWD, Gottman, Schnarch, Suzanne Somers, Gray, etc., etc...
I have tried seeing things from her perspective, working to give her what she wants, doing nice things for her, etc, etc...
I've always been the "romantic" one - writing love songs, giving nice gifts, poetry, etc. The kids see this also. Truth is, I've pretty much concluded there isn't anything I can do to make anything different, it's really up to her at this point. I intend to make it clear in our therapy sessions that I really cannot live this way any more, and we either find another way to be together, or we'll have to learn to live apart.
My heart goes out to you. On the one hand, it sounds like you are doing everything I have tried to do and am trying to do and it has not worked. That frightens me deeply that you have been doing these things for year and not yet reached a level of "happiness" that you can live with.
On the other hand, I have made a commitment to myself that things (frequency of sex and touching) are going to get better this year or I am going to end my marriage to the woman that I deeply love. The sex therapist we have has heard this and walked my wife right into that "reality" in a way that my wife cannot avoid that it is now her choice as to if this marriage survives or not.
Last night my wife asked if I would really leave her and I told her yes, that I had not felt loved for a long time and that I am a person who feels loved primarily by sex and touch. If that doesn't happen, then I don't feel loved.
We talked about what we each needed and she asked again if I really needed sex and being touched. I told her that yes I do, that is who I am and I can't change that. She then told me that this is emotionally tearing her apart. I told her that I was sorry for that, but that I really do love her, but I also need to feel loved.
There is another thread where someone said that you need to come to the point where you need to be ready to leave your marriage in order for your spouse to initiate changes.
Since you have read Schnarch and the Passionate Marriage, he talks about marriages that reach a crisis where your integrity (and self-knowledge) requires you to speak up for what you need and must have. He talks about that being a very frightening and difficult discussion with your spouse, but one that you, because of your self-knowledge must for your own sake, make. It also goes to the heart of the "marriage as a crucible" theory where marriage grows people emotionally.
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Truth is, I've pretty much concluded there isn't anything I can do to make anything different, it's really up to her at this point. I intend to make it clear in our therapy sessions that I really cannot live this way any more, and we either find another way to be together, or we'll have to learn to live apart.
Again, my heart goes out to you. I hope that your wife will be able to hear you and decides that she is willing to change in order to keep you.
Your comments also make me afraid, as my wife is now struggling with whether or not she is willing to change in order to keep me.
I wish you the best of luck in telling your therapist how you feel and in allowing your wife to understand your basic needs that must be met within the context of a committed marriage.
Good luck!
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Thanks, YoungAtHeart. Schnarch also says "It's never too late to sell yourself out", and boy, do I know what he means. That's what I've done time and again, and it really sucks. The thing that makes me sad to think about is how many years W and I have wasted, which will only be NOT a waste if we can finally turn things around, but against that is the fact that we've raised 3 fantastic kids in the meantime, so nothing can take that away. I have been holding the marriage together as long as I have mainly for that, but that job is pretty much done now. They're 18, 23 and 26 and all still living at home, and I know if I finally break up the marriage, they'll see me as the bad guy, and there's no way they'll be able to understand, but eventually I do need some chance at happiness, and can't go on living in a dead marriage. As I said, I will keep updating my sitch as it unfolds, hopefully it'll turn out to be a success story and not a cautionary tale. I do hope your W decides to change to keep you, it sounds like your issues don't go anywhere near as deep as ours. Keep the faith!
Your words again scare me, although, I think that my issues aren't as deep as yours or others on this forum. Thank you for your support and wishes.
My two children are now adults and we are mostly empty nesters except during the holidays and for the moment.
The part about selling yourself out, rings true to me as well. Last night my wife lamented about 15 lost years due to our not being able to be close to each other. As you say better now than never.
Good luck to you and your wife.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I've not read very much of your sitch, but certain things stand out:
(1) A marriage that's been sex starved for years.
(2) You do all the romantic work in the relationship, your wife does zip.
(3) I'm only guessing here, but I predict you work very hard, keep your wife and children in all the material comforts they want? Do you do lots of housework? Are you constantly thinking of "the clincher", the action that will truly demonstrate to your wife what a great guy you are? And will make her love and be attracted to you?
(4) Your three adult children all still live at home. A side issue, you may think, but IMO part of the overall picture of the kind of life and relationships you have created for yourself.
You have Nice Guy Syndrome. Right now, you should forget about your marriage - mediocre though it undoubtedly is - and start working on yourself. Get No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover - today - it will be the best $10-15 you've ever spent. Get it. Read it. Then post again.
I look forward to hearing from you.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
S&A, I get what you're saying, but I think I've actually been doing that for the past 10 years or so, even without realizing it. On my own, I decided that it was silly to keep focusing all my attention on W and F, to the exclusion of anything for myself, so about 10 years ago I started building and flying model airplanes. This gave me much joy and feeling of accomplishment, and it continues to do so to this day. It also proved a way to meet other men and develop outside friendships. I also brew my own beer, and in '07 I took on another lifelong dream and made a violin from scratch. These activities are not shared by W, but if she chose to take the slightest interest, even peripheral, they could add to our R and improve our sitch. However, she sees these more as a threat to the status quo rather than as added interest and new things to talk about. Anyway, I'll consider looking up that book...
Not sure how many folks here will recall the movie "Shirley Valentine", it's a very old British comedy about a woman who's dissatisfied with her marriage and her life in general, who goes on a holiday to Greece. I actually think of it as a tragicomedy, because in the end she does find happiness, but it's because she decides to stay in Greece and leave her husband. Anyway, early in the movie, when she's just planning her getaway, she spends time explaining her dissatisfaction to the camera. One thing she says has always stayed with me - she says "It's not that he's a BAD husband, he's just no bloody good." That pretty much sums up my own feelings about W. She and I saw the above movie on TV many years ago, early in our marriage, and she found it quite funny. I might use that line in our C sessions, with explanation for the C, and I'm quite sure W will get the reference...
One assignment we had after Session 1 was to each draw up a list of "We" statements describing the Ideal Relationship - i.e. what we want our R to look like going forward. Then take our individual lists and combine them into a master list, that we both agree on - i.e. a "Mission Statement" for the R. Well, I had 24 statements in my list, mostly things like "We laugh together" and "We go on a date at least once a month", but two of them were "We make love often and joyfully" and "We have make-up sex when we argue". Guess which ones didn't make the master list, lol...
Why would you agree to a list that didn't include them? (I couldn't choose which expletives to put between why and would so you get the safe for work version.)
Until you are willing to grab your brass ring and stake your claim to a fulfilled marriage, it won't happen. You *have* to be willing to throw it all away.
Wife, I have decided that the list is not satisfactory. I won't agree to it. When you are ready to renegotiate, let me know; otherwise, I will rip it up in front of the counselor.
Why would you agree to a list that didn't include them? (I couldn't choose which expletives to put between why and would so you get the safe for work version.)
The reason is because this was just an initial exercise to get us talking, and I'm sure it's also meant to be a "first draft" - there's no way we would get to a final list after only one session and one try, that seems obvious to me. I'm also pretty sure C will want to see our individual lists at some point, because there's much discussion to be had around what didn't make the list, and whether either of us felt cheated by it. So I didn't get all emotional or react in any way - one of the rules at this point was that either of us could nix the other's item without explanation or defence, so it's pretty clear that this is just a groundbreaking exercise to dig up some crud for discussion. As such, it worked very well, as far as I can see so far. Next session is tomorrow evening at 6, I'll let you guys know how it goes...
