It really sucks, too, to be a female in this culture where we're supposed to let the man lead, let it be his idea, etc. I feel like, it's okay for them to say what they want openly and pursue women, but we women, we could love somebody and want him to the point where it's killing us, and we STILL have to be quiet and demure and wait for him to make the first move.
That's an incorrect stereotype. Maybe true for some men, but not all! Just to add my vote here, I'm an HD male and I would love a woman who takes the intiative. She could grab me anytime, anywhere, unannounced. Just don't make it too obvious in public, that's all I ask! Otherwise, no exceptions. Wake me up at 4 am if you need it!
Yeah, me too, but . . . she's not dealing with an HD man, and that's the real issue. She can't just grab him, and if she woke him up at 4:00 a.m. he'd just be a grumpy guy with bad breath. No sexy times.
When you're in an SSM, you try to figure out why all women or all men are such-and-such, but of course they're not. And you look around at all the *other* men, or women, who don't seem to be anything like yours, and you wonder why. Of course, you have to remember that you're seeing the face those people put on in public, not the way they really are at home. You see your husband or wife intimately with their guards down. It's not the same.
In my case, I had something of an ally at my wife's place of work. She has a coworker who's her best friend. Technically, my wife is her superior, but they work closely and her friend is old enough to be her mother, so they're on pretty even footing. While we've been trying to sort out why my wife wanted no sex and I wanted it all the time, her friend was dealing with the same thing from the other direction. Her husband had lost interest among work, depression, anti-depressant side effects, and all the rest. Early in our process, when I didn't realize my wife was telling her Friend everything about our private life, her Friend was trying to warn her that she would push me away until we had a totally sexless, loveless marriage, and then when her libido came back at her Friend's age she'd reach for me and I wouldn't be there. It didn't have much impact at the time.
As they shared more, though, my wife began to realize that there were many parallels in our situation. I think it helped me in the end that she heard my side of the story twice, once from her husband, but then again from her Friend who she knew was not obsessive or unreasonable, and whose heart was breaking over being treated the same way she'd been treating me. It may have helped her to understand that it wasn't just that I was some pervert, or that all men are perverts, but that there are people, even women, who can't be happy in their marriage if their partner is withholding sex.
Like I said, I started re-reading some of my old recovery and addiction/codependency books. If you're ever trying to "let go" - of anything - these are the best resource.
And it really is helping. I've been in a 12-Step program before, and maybe finding some meetings again would help. (When I was in program before, I lived in a place where there were a lot of meetings. Since then, I've moved to a place where there aren't many. But never fear - there are online meetings.)
I'm trying to look at things a little differently. I don't have to be desperate. He says he loves me and wants us together forever; and even though he still hugs and kisses me and gives me loving looks, I'm just not sure I believe him any more.
How on earth could a man love a woman, and want to keep the relationship, if they almost never have sex? To me, that's not love. At least, not romantic/sexual/mate love. If it's love without sex, then it's friend love or family love.
And if he dumps me, I could cope. As it stands right now, it would break my heart and it would be tough on me financially. But I wouldn't be out on the street. The papers around here are full of people looking for roommates. I could make it if I really had to.
Without him in my life, I'd hurt horribly for a while and be lonely. But there are things I could do on my own that I can't do w/ him around: eat whenever I want, sleep whenever I want, clean house when *I* think the house needs it (not when he's acting like he thinks it needs to be done)....go out when I want to, instead of staying in because he wants to stay in. Go to events and join groups in the area where I live. Maybe even move someplace I would like better. My workaholism would no longer be a problem. With more privacy, I could even satisfy my own needs with masturbation whenever I want to...not have to wait until he's in the shower or out.
I'm not going to dump him, but I'm beginning to see that if he did dump me, it wouldn't be all bad.
It might not even necessarily mean the end of my sex/love life with men. True, I'm 45, but I look good for my age, and I've seen men look at me recently. I guess it would be possible that somebody else might want me.
And I'm trying (in the spirit of 12-Step programs) to believe that even if DH doesn't love me, maybe God does. God and I have a rocky history. But Step 2 says, "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." I'm trying to work the steps again, and Step 2 is a good one for me right now.
How on earth could a man love a woman, and want to keep the relationship, if they almost never have sex? To me, that's not love. At least, not romantic/sexual/mate love. If it's love without sex, then it's friend love or family love.
I won't lie to you, I don't understand this either. Not deep down where it really counts, though I know more of the fact and theory of love languages and all the rest. And I also can't tell you that your husband really loves you without expressing it sexually where it would mean most to you. I don't actually know that about him, and if you're like me, that kind of positive cheerleading only reinforces your doubts when it comes from someone who can't know whether it's true or not.
What I can tell you, and hope you'll believe it because this I do know, is that I said exactly the same things about my wife. I said very similar words *to* my wife--I told her that if we weren't lovers, we were the same as siblings or roommates. That I loved my mother and my sister deeply and would step in front of a truck to save either of them, but I wanted my relationship with her to be different from my relationship with them. I didn't need another sister or a mother.
She convinced me, by trying to work out our sexual issues, our control issues, her depression . . . well, a lot of things . . . that she does love me. And eventually we began to make our sex life work again. It's not perfect, but it's nothing like it was. I feel loved, and I realize that she loved me all along. She just didn't understand what we were doing to each other, and honestly, neither did I.
Love and sex are not separate for me, and I don't understand how they can be for her, but I know they were. I hope that gives you hope for you and your husband. Again, I won't presume to tell you what your husband is thinking, but I'm convinced that there ARE people for whom sex doesn't feel related to love in any real way.
Well, yesterday, I was depressed all day long. I didn't pester him, just did my own thing. That's another thing I'm trying to see if it helps - I'm backing off from him. For awhile there, I was hugging, kissing, etc. (w/ sexual overtones), saying "I love you" and similar things, etc.
A few days ago, when I decided to try letting go, I stopped all that. If he initiates, then I hug/kiss/say "I love you" back - but he has to start it. If having me pestering him with affection is so terrible, then I won't make him put up with it any more. If he wants it, he can come and get it.
Maybe it's just another reminder of some things I thought I had learned years ago:
1) Women don't get to pick the men they like; men get to do the choosing. We just have to hope the ones who choose us, are attractive to us too.
2) Any forward progress in a relationship has to be the man's idea, or it won't work.
Horrible? Yes. Sexist? Outrageously so. Do I hate it? With all my heart. But it seems to be the ugly truth about male-female relationships. Every time I've been the pursuer, I've gotten hurt.
In this relationship, *he* was the first one to suggest we stop dating others. *He* was the one to suggest moving in together. He was the first one to suggest things, and it was working beautifully, until we started having this sex problem about 2 years ago. Then when it seemed I wanted sex more than he did, I guess I forgot that, and began pursuing him more. Maybe that was a mistake.
So, anyway, back to yesterday. I didn't pester him, but he could tell I was depressed. At first, he thought it was because I wanted to see the movie "The Road" and he didn't. We talked about that, and I told him that's not why I'm so depressed. FFS! I've missed movies before and it was NOT the end of the world. It would take a lot more than that to put me in a really bad blue mood.
But, I didn't tell him yet again what I AM depressed about. If he doesn't know by now, he hasn't listened when I've tried to tell him for the past 2 years. I'm depressed bcs we haven't had sex since Oct. 29, and I'm mourning the end of my sex life.
I think he *does* love me, in that way that LD people can somehow love their mate w/o wanting sex. I hear what you're saying about that, Silly. It makes me feel like an alien from another planet, but I believe you when you say there are people like that. And I'm beginning to believe DH might be one of them.
However, I'm not. Never getting to have sex again (or getting it very rarely) is a major loss for me. And I'm going to mourn that loss and grieve it. If it means I act depressed sometimes, so be it.
But yesterday, when I was depressed and not hiding it, DH was very loving and sweet with me. Hugs and kisses and kind words, loving glances, etc. And when he gives me that, I respond in kind. I've just stopped initiating for now.
I did get The Book (SSM), and am trying the bit about being good to myself. I'm sticking w/ my weight loss program, but the fact that I'm doing it for me (health reasons) as well as for attractiveness reasons, helps me stay motivated to keep losing the weight. Actually, I'm close to my goal weight now. Only 15 pounds left to go! I'm going to yoga class, and reconnecting with old friends via Facebook. Soaking in the tub, reading a good book, cuddling with our cats, all those things are ways I can take care of myself.
Last week, I was home from work on time for 3 days out of 5. So I'm doing better about that. If I can keep that up, we'll see if DH notices (and ever wants to do anything other than sit in front of the TV every evening.)
Not to hawk books, but have you seen that there's a book specifically for "The Sex-Starved Wife"? I haven't read it, but I was thinking about getting a copy for my wife's friend, who has our copy of SSM right now.
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A few days ago, when I decided to try letting go, I stopped all that. If he initiates, then I hug/kiss/say "I love you" back - but he has to start it. If having me pestering him with affection is so terrible, then I won't make him put up with it any more. If he wants it, he can come and get it.
It's a hurtful thought, isn't it? But it's not your affection that turns him off. It's the perception of being nagged or "pestered." It's the desperation of it. If it makes you feel any better, I posted something similar about how I was trying not to pester my wife when I was starting out here, and Dancequeen or Ali or somebody devoted a paragraph to why I shouldn't be pestering her and what that choice of word meant. Anyway, you're doing the right thing. It helps to set a time period for yourself and stick to it--"I will not initiate for one month" for example. Actually, people suggest anything from a month to a year, but I personally thought a month was enough to bite off at one time.
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1) Women don't get to pick the men they like; men get to do the choosing. We just have to hope the ones who choose us, are attractive to us too.
Read that again. Can you see how hopeless and desperate that sounds? What if the man who chooses you is not attractive to you? You marry him anyway, or he's out of luck even though he chose you? You're both choosing. Men have the same issue; they can choose a woman, but if she doesn't choose them, it's not going to work. They can also, as you suggest, decide to sit back and choose among the women who seek them out, hoping that a woman they find attractive will happen to find them. It doesn't tend to work a whole lot better for men than it does for women. Even when you find someone great, it doesn't work that well. Someday I'll tell you how I met my wife, but for now, let's just say that she did all the pursuing at first, including literally trying to trick me into going on a date with her. Then I fell for her and she was wonderful--but eventually we had problems that couldn't be solved by hanging back and hoping she would take care of everything. If I'd stuck to that pattern, we might not be married now.
2) Any forward progress in a relationship has to be the man's idea, or it won't work.[/quote] Well, either that, or the woman's. Do you really believe your husband will never accept any idea you come up with?
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But, I didn't tell him yet again what I AM depressed about. If he doesn't know by now, he hasn't listened when I've tried to tell him for the past 2 years. I'm depressed bcs we haven't had sex since Oct. 29, and I'm mourning the end of my sex life.
He really, truly might not know. Poke around here a little; I'll look up some names for you. There are LD spouses here who helped me a lot by telling me that no, they really didn't understand when their spouses really did tell them bluntly how important sex was and how depressing it was to be shut out. Some of them eventually caught on, or their spouses figured out the right words. Most had to have a wake-up call. The lucky ones, read SSM or some other work that showed them what their spouses were going through. The unlucky ones found themselve with walk-away spouses, discovered their spouses' affairs, or like my wife got sat down and told that we were headed for a divorce. Trying to explain HD sexuality to a LD person with words is like trying to explain Van Gogh to a child born blind. They don't experience the world the way you do. The words don't have the power to get it across completely. If they did, you would understand all that LD psychology you and I were just commiserating about not understanding, right?
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Last week, I was home from work on time for 3 days out of 5. So I'm doing better about that. If I can keep that up, we'll see if DH notices (and ever wants to do anything other than sit in front of the TV every evening.)
Here's your chance. Don't wait for him to come up with something to do. You do it, and invite him along. You mentioned going to see The Road (a sure cure for depression--after that, maybe you can find some kittens with cancer or something.) Anyway, you come home, he's watching TV, you want to go see the movie. Tell him about your day, ask about his, whatever you do. Then tell him you're going to see that movie you've been talking about. Does he want to come? If he tells you he doesn't want to go, then you go. Call your friend, go by yourself, whatever, it doesn't matter as long as you're doing something you're interested in doing. Now, odds are that he's going to notice this and if you're enjoying yourself, he'll notice that, too. He may decide he wants to see what all the fun is next time. But worst case, if he shrugs and goes back to the TV, you're having fun instead of being depressed.
Just remember to pick things you want to do for your own reasons. That's important. It's not a ploy to get him interested in you, it's about taking control. The happy side effect is that most people find that more attractive than depression or desperation.
- I'm backing off from him. For awhile there, I was hugging, kissing, etc. (w/ sexual overtones), saying "I love you" and similar things, etc.
A few days ago, when I decided to try letting go, I stopped all that. If he initiates, then I hug/kiss/say "I love you" back - but he has to start it. If having me pestering him with affection is so terrible, then I won't make him put up with it any more. If he wants it, he can come and get it.
....But yesterday, when I was depressed and not hiding it, DH was very loving and sweet with me. Hugs and kisses and kind words, loving glances, etc. And when he gives me that, I respond in kind. I've just stopped initiating for now.
I did get The Book (SSM), and am trying the bit about being good to myself. I'm sticking w/ my weight loss program, but the fact that I'm doing it for me (health reasons) as well as for attractiveness reasons, helps me stay motivated to keep losing the weight. Actually, I'm close to my goal weight now. Only 15 pounds left to go! I'm going to yoga class, and reconnecting with old friends via Facebook. Soaking in the tub, reading a good book, cuddling with our cats, all those things are ways I can take care of myself.
Congratulations on both weight loss and getting and reading SSM. You are doing a couple of very positive things. First you are doing a 180 by not pushing for sex. Second you are getting a life (GAL) and taking care of yourself. Both of those things should make you more desirable.
I am trying similar things to try to spark things up with my LD wife. I am taking a slightly different track in my sexual touching 180. She has alway told me for over three decades that she would touch me more if it didn't always lead to my needing sex. I decided to call her on this recently after a couple of months without sex and told her that I was not going to have sex with her under any circumstance for two months and that during that time I wanted her to be able to touch me with her knowing that it wouldn't lead to sex under any circumstance.
During this past month, I have kept a daily log to record what I do in touching her and what she does in touching me. I have to admit to two things. I am surprised by how much she is now touching me; about once every other day. I am also surprised by the kind of touching she is doing. She will kiss me good bye in the morning when we go to work (no passion, but nice) and she will in bed put her feet against my leg as a sign of affection or reach out as she goes to sleep to tough an arm or try to hold a hand. It is sweat and I like it, but it is not the passion I really want. I am seeing that she is trying in her way and I appreciate that. It gives me hope that if I create a protective environment long enough, maybe the flame of her physical love for me can grow stronger.
Once decades ago during a terrible fight, my wife said that she loved me, but she just didn't show it by having sex with me, she said she did the cooking, the grocery shopping, the laundry, and the cleaning and that was how she showed me that she loved me. It is only recently that I have come to understand that she always has been telling me she loved me through acts of service and devotion, but I just haven't been hearing her constant statements of love.
You say that your husband does hug and kiss you. Congratulations. That is a good sign.
Rather than "witholding" your telling him that you love him and your touching him, why don't you keep on telling him that you love him, and continue to touch him, but in a less sexual way. He still needs your love, even if you are the HD partner.
I found the SSM a great book with great insights. Yesterday just before dinner, I set up next Saturday for when my wife and I are going to discuss it and a couple of other books. Also since you are reading books, may I suggest the 5 Languages of Love (Dr. Chapman) and the survey at the back to see what you and your husband's love languages are, so you can better communicate your love to him in a way that he can receive the message. If you can spring for one more book try Hold Me Tight by Dr. Sue Johnson. Those three books are the ones that I have read that have impressed me the most. Another book that was recommended to me, but hasn't yet arrived is No More Mr. Nice Guy. Others can tell you if it is appropriate for you or not.
Good luck, keep to your goals of weight loss and getting a life and stay optimistic. Try to look for the good things in your relationship and his attempts at saying he loves you in his way of communicating that.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Thanks, Silly and Young, for your ideas. I don't have time to give a long response right now - but just want you to know your help is appreciated (and I plan to try your advice.) TTYL.
