I have never been to Retro, actually had never even heard of it till a month ago on here, but don't get me wrong, I am all for anything that may have positive outcomes on M's. Sara, I was simply saying that at this point, Low needs to allow her to come to him with it, otherwise he will be seen as pushing or pursuing while she is still very much appearing to be on the wayward side of their R.
She may also just have the attitude of "I'll go do the Retro just so when it is over I can say - see I told you it would not work - now will you help me to get divorced from you".
That may be also part of her thinking with ML with you - to get you to see it her way or to soften you up.
You are getting some great insight. I have to agree, I think something is up with W. She is all over the place and things are NOT adding up.
Sometimes it's difficult when you're in the thick of things to see the sitch for what it really is. Think about what others have posted. IMO, I think W is manipulating you. She has a hidden agenda. Also, please don't assume OM is not in the picture. If nothing else, he's still in her head.
Me: 39 H: 39 S: 15 M: 18 years Bomb: 6/3/09 H moved out: 10/15/09 H moved back:5/30/10
Thanks for the advice. I agree that at the least OM is still in her head. Things are definitely not adding up.
I'll drop the Retro talk for now. If she pushes the collaborative attorney talk, I'll say I'm thinking it over but not ready to talk with one yet.
I'm doing some good 180 work especially when it comes to taking care of projects that I have pushed off, better handling of finances etc.. trying to speak her love language.
I have to remember patience...
Thanks,
Low
Last edited by lowneil; 08/01/0901:46 AM.
Me 38 / W 37 M 14 yrs S 11/S8 First Bomb: 3/6/2009 EA Second Bomb: 6/4/2009 PA Same House Separate Rooms
I had a conversation with my W last night. We discussed our recent problems and she said that she had been trying for a year and a half.
I pushed back and she really had put zero effort into our relationship other than telling me what I needed to do (take me away, be more loving, etc).
I didn't think I got through to her, but she told me was going to speak to the Retrouvaille facilitators and she came home with two books last night:
I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You
and
When Good People Have Affairs
I think this is at least a sign that she is slowing down the whole divorce train. I can't remember her ever going out and buying books on relationships.
Me 38 / W 37 M 14 yrs S 11/S8 First Bomb: 3/6/2009 EA Second Bomb: 6/4/2009 PA Same House Separate Rooms
You do not want a divorce. You've told your wife this many times presumably from reading through this thread.
And yet I cannot help but notice that, to me at least, you do very little in the way of attempting to draw her back towards you. You end many conversations with saying that you "have work to do." You refuse to participate in any discussion that has to do with your relationship, thereby missing opportunities to reinforce to her that you love her, that you strongly desire to rebuild/repair your marriage, that you ARE capable of healing from her affair and that it is NOT something that has to hang over both your heads forever...
Lots of things you could be saying.
None of which I would consider "rescuing" or "belittling" to yourself.
Your wife may just be pitching hissy fits over and over again...
or maybe she is expressing her lack of self-esteem, her inability to believe that she can be loved by someone, and maybe even the guilt she is beginning to feel for having violated her marriage vows.
I would never advise you to NOT protect yourself. All of your advisors here are very correct to tell you that you MUST prepare for the bad that could come.
But there is also the possibility that this is a marrriage that can still be saved, and your wife is NOT the only one who will have to move in order to save it.
She feels threatened by her failing sbeing used against her. She has expressed feeling let down by your refusal to show compassion to her when she was openly hurting.
Let's not allow our indignation at her wrong choices to turn you in to a cold, insensitive, unfeeling man. She still needs to know that you WOULD have her back, and that you would do so without insisting that she hold a position of subservience to you forever because of her mistakes.
In short, I'm telling you that if you really want to try to save this marriage, it's time for you to show some of your unconditional love that you've learned to temper with reasonable expectations and firm boundaries...
You say over and over again how certain you are that the affair is over. If that's the case, isn't it perhaps time that you begin leading the way to healing? And you can certainly do that without compromising your principles or sacrificing your dignity.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
Thanks for the note. I tend to agree with you that my refusal to give up the emails that I held about the affair was making my wife feel trapped and powerless. It seemed to be the trigger that was causing some very explosive exchanges.
During the conversations we had over the last few days, I told her that I forgave her, truly forgave her for the affair. We cried together and hugged for a long time. She asked me if I would delete the emails.
I agreed. One, because i never planned to use them in the first place and two because it was really the only thing my wife could point to as bad behavior on my part.
We continue to have good days where we talk, have dinner out, cuddle on the couch.
The one thing I have learned from DB besides patience is to do what works. It seems like each day I get more right than wrong and I have to believe that over time this will help her see that this marriage is worth saving.
I'm trying to walk a very fine line between showing that we can have a loving marriage and pursuing behavior. We shall see how it goes.
Me 38 / W 37 M 14 yrs S 11/S8 First Bomb: 3/6/2009 EA Second Bomb: 6/4/2009 PA Same House Separate Rooms
During the conversations we had over the last few days, I told her that I forgave her, truly forgave her for the affair. We cried together and hugged for a long time. She asked me if I would delete the emails.
I agreed. One, because i never planned to use them in the first place and two because it was really the only thing my wife could point to as bad behavior on my part.
Ugh. Unilateral disarmament -- never a good idea.
I agree with Bill's overall message of trying to find ways you can begin to show some compassion toward your wife, and let her know you're willing to work at this. Weakening your LEGAL position, however, is not the way to go about it.
Trust me, she will now find OTHER things to point to as "bad behavior" on your part, if she is so inclined. It will be a moving target list. Giving up your guns is foolish legally, and emotionally I don't think she is going to respect the capitulation.
I'm pretty sure that nowhere in my post to you did I suggest agreeing to get rid of the evidence of her affair.
The whole point of my post is that YOU are in the position of having to walk an incredibly difficult tightrope. The truth is that this is the case with the majority of folks who find themselves here.
People here presumably do not want a divorce, hence their presence at Divorce Busting. Early in our stories, close to the dropping of the bomb, the most common mistake is to yield to the leaving spouse as a method of showing them that we will do anything to save the marriage. This fails because it makes us look desperate and pathetic to a spouse who has already decided that we were not worthy of their time or commitment.
So you come here and we advise you to establish boundaries and avoid relationship talks. This is not because talking about your marital issues is bad - FAR from it. The problem is that early onand while our spouse is in La-La land, we are ill equipped to have a relationship talk without either getting angry (making the situation worse) or bending to their onslaught and agreeing with them completely (again making the situation worse for us).
As you begin to get your legs under you again in your recovery from the bomb, it's time to take your approach to the next level. Assuming you are a reasonably intelligent man, and that you are now on a slightly stronger emotional standing, you should begin to develop the ability and skill of handling a "relationship" talk without falling in to those old traps. In fact, if you are ready, it becomes an opportunity for you to reinforce your message on behavioral boundaries AND send the message to your spouse that you love them, you are capable of forgiveness, and you are willing to rebuild your marriage into a stronger and better one.
My take after reading through this thread is that most o fthe conversations you share have you cutting off talks prematurely even though your wife is regularly saying things to express either her self-disgust or her feeling of not being accepted. In no case (in THIS thread) did I read of you expressing loving compassion and understanding. At no point did I read of you affirming your love in a way other than the words "I love you." I trust you're able to understand that a person who is teetering on the brink of the abyss is less than completely reassured by those three words, no matter how heartfelt they are delivered.
Look, I'd love to pile on and say that the ball is in your wifes court and all you have to do is avoid touchy issues and constantly reinforce your boundaries. But as Michelle would tell us, the burden for finding a way to heal this relationship rests on the spouse who is rational enough and willing enough to do the hard work. Yeah, it seems to give her a free pass of sorts, and maybe it does for a time. I'm not telling you to give in on sensitive boundary issues and allow her to walk all over you. I'm telling you that you can balance your boundaries with your work towards showing her that she has a home with you still.
In coaching football we always have to be concerned about how much information we try to put in our players heads. We don't want them to get in a game situation and get "paryalysis from analysis." In short, we don't want them thinking so much that they can't play effectively. I'm detecting much of that in you. You're so worried about saying the right or wrong thing, that you're missing opportunities to make big plays.
Rather than trying to find the magic words, it's been my experience that the truth that is naturally in your heart tempered with a realistic view of your situation is a more than adequate approach. If you're trying to remember my words, or Puppy's words, or anyone else's words, you're not being genuine, and trust me, she will smell it a mile away.
There was no reason to delete the emails. If you have not don so, I would change my mind. At this point, it should be something you keep to yourself until more significant positive progress shold develop in your sitch.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
