"SPLITTING is designed for anyone facing a high conflict divorce, whether or not your spouse meets the criteria for a Borderline or Narcissistic Personality. Its explanations of WHAT TO EXPECT in Family Court and WHAT TO DO to protect yourself and your children, can be used by anyone, including your attorney, your therapist, your family and others involved in your case.
...Since I had been a therapist for the previous decade, I recognized these personality problems -- but I did not realize at first how successful they can be at manipulating and confusing legal professionals.
Rather than being rational and protective, the Family Court process can be very unpredictable and inadvertently encourages false allegations, aggressive and sometimes violent behavior, and intense blaming of the Non-BP or Non-NP spouse... Because the courts are often more persuaded by the intense emotions and blaming behavior of a Borderline or Narcissist, than by your honest presentation of the facts. I call them "Persuasive Blamers."
This book ... summarizes the lessons I have learned, including: the importance of careful preparations before announcing the divorce, using therapists and experts, avoiding short hearings on important issues, fighting hard at the beginning rather than trying to fix bad decisions later, and how to work most effectively with your attorney. I do not blame Borderlines and Narcissists, as they are also caught up in this adversarial process which often enables them to remain stuck rather than getting the help they need."
Which reminds me, it's about time to re-read it myself...
-AlexEN
New: What a Weekend
H-48 WAW-49 M-22 S-14,9 D-11 EA disc.-11/07 PA disc.-3/08 EA2?-6/08 to ?
Hence the "Focus on yourself" part that we all get told. It's so true.
It also seems to be why we often see the LBS becoming the WAS. In the case where the LBS really really focuses and changes and grows, they then start to really see the problems in the R and become more wary of the changes that the WAS is NOT making.
When (if) the WAS then comes back, does the LBS still want them?
I know I am asking myself this question. Even though my W is not coming back, I am seriously asking my self, if she does, do I want it? Under what conditions? I know others here who are asking themselves the same things.
I didn't believe it at the time but I was modeling to my wife and showing her how to change. (read leading) We think we are the ones with all the issues when we first roll in here. ON key to piecing is supporting and loving them thru their "snake killing." My marraige is in a much more mature and solid place. DB tuition is high I was not about to let my education go to waste. Cheers
Coach,
If only we were all so lucky as to have a Greek on the other side of the equation...
If we're all being realistic, we also have to acknowledge that even if one were able to mimic your leading to the nth degree, not all WAS will follow the lead and have the wherewithall themselves to kill the snakes...
It certainly increases the likelihood of an outcome like yours, but at the end of the day, both parties have to make changes, if party A can't lead it won't work and if party B doesn't/can't/won't "follow" it may not work either, but in either instance the leader will be the better for it...
Yes? No?
-AlexEN
New: What a Weekend
H-48 WAW-49 M-22 S-14,9 D-11 EA disc.-11/07 PA disc.-3/08 EA2?-6/08 to ?
"SPLITTING is designed for anyone facing a high conflict divorce, whether or not your spouse meets the criteria for a Borderline or Narcissistic Personality. Its explanations of WHAT TO EXPECT in Family Court and WHAT TO DO to protect yourself and your children, can be used by anyone, including your attorney, your therapist, your family and others involved in your case.
...Since I had been a therapist for the previous decade, I recognized these personality problems -- but I did not realize at first how successful they can be at manipulating and confusing legal professionals.
Rather than being rational and protective, the Family Court process can be very unpredictable and inadvertently encourages false allegations, aggressive and sometimes violent behavior, and intense blaming of the Non-BP or Non-NP spouse... Because the courts are often more persuaded by the intense emotions and blaming behavior of a Borderline or Narcissist, than by your honest presentation of the facts. I call them "Persuasive Blamers."
This book ... summarizes the lessons I have learned, including: the importance of careful preparations before announcing the divorce, using therapists and experts, avoiding short hearings on important issues, fighting hard at the beginning rather than trying to fix bad decisions later, and how to work most effectively with your attorney. I do not blame Borderlines and Narcissists, as they are also caught up in this adversarial process which often enables them to remain stuck rather than getting the help they need."
Which reminds me, it's about time to re-read it myself...
-AlexEN
And I wonder why I have felt intimidated and fearful of initiating D ...I just need help. I'm so twisted up, don't know if I'm the crazy one or more likely, we both are.
I was reading today how withholding sex is a form of emotional abuse. So, narcissistic or not, it makes sense that H is happy to discover he is desirable.
Unlike some, I was not intentionally withholding to alter his behavior or get something from him. I was literally so turned off and insecure in the M and at times he disgusted me. I want to talk to C about this too. Why would I get to a place where I was so contemptuous of someone I love? And if it was just our dynamic (I suspect living with a narcissist can have some side effects), why did I engage in and stay in that R for so long? Of course, more important, what do I do about it now??
I really want to lead regardless of whether H ever follows. For our childrens' sakes I hope and pray that H might get some help too. I can say that I think if he does just have narcissistic tendencies that have blown up in an acute outburst, it would make sense that lack of sex and feeling undesirable would help push him over that edge. It does seem he is overcompensating a bit...just a wee bit.
I don't think it is my fault, I think I felt as stuck and screwed over as he did.
Might be worth getting the book. Even if he isn't NP and is just BP, a lot of the same things apply...
And, oversimplifying, since the dynamics of your dance with H has many layers, this language hit home for me: "and intense blaming of the Non-BP or Non-NP spouse..."
It's hard not to accept that blame when it comes at you relentlessly; the NP/BP so firmly believes what they are saying that it is VERY convincing [that isn't to say that we on the other hand are blameless, but our $hit is magnified under this microscope] and thus more "credible" especially if the non-BP or non-NP spouse has issues with self-confidence, co-dependence or enmeshment.
You've been following Serenity's thread, from the outside looking in, and this probably isn't totally fair, it seems that you are being as unduly harsh on yourself as is she. Acknowledge your reasonable portion of the responsibility for your sitch being what it is, but don't accept all of the "blame"...
Why do I end up on your thread when it's late and I know what I'm trying to say, but can't quite get the words the way I want them...
-AlexEN
New: What a Weekend
H-48 WAW-49 M-22 S-14,9 D-11 EA disc.-11/07 PA disc.-3/08 EA2?-6/08 to ?
You have to change the expectation that you are dependent on him for your emotional well-being. You need to heal and grow, regardless of him. Even when your senses and intuition tell you that he ought to be the one to make changes, you need to become the fully alive person you are meant to be. This means you have to remove the focus from him, and put it squarely on you. That is also the best thing you can do to help him and your relationship.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
Why do I end up on your thread when it's late and I know what I'm trying to say, but can't quite get the words the way I want them...
Because you're awesome, that's why. And the words make lots of sense.
I don't really blame myself anymore. I am all about my own mental health though so I want to be fearless and honest in my self-assessment.
I'm so trying not to be hostile right now. The kids have so little clothes and other stuff and H suggested today that I bring some of their things over to his new place. I know this is necessary but a) it means we are going to spend money we don't have for more stuff (or he will) and b) this begins one of the hardest parts for kids, having their things in two places and having resources spread thinner than they already are.
When H talks about selling stuff, I want that money to go to pay bills, not pots and pans...but, really, even with a settlement, he would be able to spend his money as he wishes and buy things for his place. It is more a matter of why isn't it worth it to sell stuff and be proactive for us?? But, realistically, this separation is good in so many ways. I just know that a lot of people want to separate and don't because they can't afford it. How's that for incoherent articulation?
Anyway, perhaps he will get a taste of reality, he sounded pretty down when I spoke to him tonight, kind of like a normal person under the circumstances actually (irrelevant, I know, him, him, him)...
You have to change the expectation that you are dependent on him for your emotional well-being. You need to heal and grow, regardless of him. Even when your senses and intuition tell you that he ought to be the one to make changes, you need to become the fully alive person you are meant to be. This means you have to remove the focus from him, and put it squarely on you. That is also the best thing you can do to help him and your relationship.
Yep. I'm hoping the therapist will help with this. When I spoke with her, she said I am no where near ready to divorce. That felt good, not because I want to save the marriage but because it is the truth. I do not have my bearings enough to put on the big girl panties and keep them on through the divorce process. I have tried to navigate this on my own and I crumble way to easily. I am going to need to be very clear and very decisive and very together to get through this. I mean, if I fall apart this easily, I will look like the nut in our deliberations.
Ok guys. Don't give up on me. I think H's move and the dwindling funds, added expense and accompanying inconveniences of two places has really gotten to me.
I read some great posts here this morning and I suppose if I view all of my own actions through the eyes of my children, I will know better what the "right" thing is to do. I mean, someone else mentioned strength and honor...I like that.
I want them to see their male role models deliver on that but I can only control me so back on the horse, aaaagain.
If only we were all so lucky as to have a Greek on the other side of the equation...
If we're all being realistic, we also have to acknowledge that even if one were able to mimic your leading to the nth degree, not all WAS will follow the lead and have the wherewithall themselves to kill the snakes...
It certainly increases the likelihood of an outcome like yours, but at the end of the day, both parties have to make changes, if party A can't lead it won't work and if party B doesn't/can't/won't "follow" it may not work either, but in either instance the leader will be the better for it...
Yes? No?
-AlexEN
I agree. I know what worked for me. I believe both parties have to stop feeling and start thinking to get some traction going again in the marriage. I am truly blessed to be married to Greek. The mindset I see "successful" people make here is "I will thrive thru this regardless of the outcome." Because that is all about you. It's a command to yourself to grow. It's the clarity to detach because your marriage might not survive. It's the will to work on what you need to for your next "marriage." Here's to better days! Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
...I just need help. I'm so twisted up, don't know if I'm the crazy one or more likely, we both are.