Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back, but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy. I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.
(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)
Would you care to discuss the things you are doing wrong when you are giving advice? Let us start with your methods. Hint (On and on and on comes to mind)....... I wonder if you like to hear yourself talk. Helping people sometimes requires being a good listener and less talking. (Hope that doesn't offend you)
You seem to have a critical spirit.( evidence gathered from the way you sometimes criticize your husband) (I am sure you justify it as "venting") You don't see me talking (venting) about my wife the way you sometimes do your husband. Especially on a public forum. I would think someone as in the know as you would know that. Me thinks you should look in the mirror first, then come and we can discuss. Let's start with YOU. Me thinks you should worry less about me and more about some growth that you seem to need.
Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back, but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy. I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.
(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)
Would you care to discuss the things you are doing wrong when you are giving advice? Let us start with your methods. Hint (On and on and on comes to mind)....... I wonder if you like to hear yourself talk. Helping people sometimes requires being a good listener and less talking. (Hope that doesn't offend you)
You seem to have a critical spirit.( evidence gathered from the way you sometimes criticize your husband) (I am sure you justify it as "venting") You don't see me talking (venting) about my wife the way you sometimes do your husband. Especially on a public forum. I would think someone as in the know as you would know that. Me thinks you should look in the mirror first, then come and we can discuss. Let's start with YOU. Me thinks you should worry less about me and more about some growth that you seem to need.
Can you two start a new thread if you want to go at it. I am so appreciative of the varying points of view but I'm really in the thick of it and looking for support.
Sometimes less is more and sometimes more is more. Seriously, sometimes I need to read more, relate to more, see myself more to stay on a certain mental track.
And still there is value in the cut and dry advice you give Gucci. It is a bit like getting cold water poured over my head and it works and then there are the complexities of DOING and LIVING.
Gucci, if it resonated as deeply for others as it does for you, if it was as intrinsic for others as it is for you or if it felt as clear as it does for you, it would just flow. But, you're a tough nut with a but of a mean streak and a hard line seems to come easy for you.
I don't want to be coddled and I don't mind getting slapped with a pov that is a bit more acerbic but, you don't have to live AND in some sitches, you don't know what the LBS spouse is dealing with. In some cases there is potential for abuse, financial ruin etc.
Some sitches are unsalvageable and it becomes about mindfully and logically getting out with what you can and with the least damage done. I have a C to make sure I set boundaries and am aware of who I am dealing with.
Anyway, if you want to chime in on my sitch, I'll take it. Always open to it.
Geez A/K, (First off-you said the longer the better...so here it comes...)
Ouch...yeah it does hurt deeply, to have a talk like that and see him packing... What can I say? The only way to get through the pain is to get through it. You are.
It's sinking in for both of you. I would imagine you'll see some gestures towards you on his end, b/c he'll get scared and want to know you are still there for him. He'll make a few non commital comments or moves to insure you are not really moving on without him...???
Do what you will, but I'd urge you to think long and hard before just... being there for him. It's one thing to be his friend/co-parent, and quite another to be "there for him". He won't come back if he knows you are still there waiting--why should he?-- and as I said before and was said elsewhere, he's not likely to "just wake up & come back" anyhow. Sorry honey. I'm not clairvoyant, but he has been gone awhile now and shoot, he's still gone, so....what's there to say?
I do not believe he is coming back. And I agree on being "there for him".
Glad you had the talk and made the focus on making a decent co-parenting R now, not how to reconcile. Oh Yeah it's funny about being the LBSer and having "demands"..."MOI??" how'd that come up and get expressed anyway? Curious. But it IS a matter of what it would take on YOUR end which means what you would expect/require from HIS END...and whether the two will ever match up. I didn't so much make overt demands just highlighted what precisely about the current dynamic does not work for me and particularly that in essence I need to be treated with respect (it was clarified what that really is) and we discussed some of his blame and his expectations and honestly some of it was too much and some of it was really constructive. And this conversation wasn't about us being M, it was about ANY relationship I am willing to be in.
For some time now there has been a huge disconnect between what he will give, and what you deserve and need. Someday you will be like other "post" DBers who go on to have better Ms later on. G- says a lot of things that I disagree with but the main point I want to make is that there are far worse things than ending up divorced. That may be something he means. I post here not to just tell anyone to wait things out. I always talk about GAL b/c no matter the sitch, how can that ever be bad advice? Don't know why he doesn't see that if he really has read my posts. The fact that I don't tell you or Kevin to date, even if I think it's a good idea, is out of respect for MWD AND the fact that people posting here tend not to want that type of advice. They want to know if they can save their M's and if not, what to do. Most are healthy enough to know they are not ready to date in any meaningful way. Sure it would probably get your h's attention. I don't see why it wouldn't. Do you want to? Could you keep your kids from finding out? Why did you get scared that time it began to freak him out and he came running back? Why didn't you keep on with that action plan? (This actually would have pleased Gucci, b/c it's in his 'plan' but you flipped out for some reason I never fully understood...do you remember?)
Honest truth? I finally realize that it is because he got very physically assertive and I could have told him to get the "f" off of me or go with it. I am just getting right now that I felt so conflicted when I got the attention I wanted and I gave in. And sometimes I was firm about no sex but I still didn't get him out of here or off of me quick enough which I think would have required me really letting him have it and shaming him. I think he got the power back in the sitch by sort of winning the physical battle and he saw it tied me up in knots, it messed with him too.
Anyhow, The WAS's usually fit a few patterns, or seem to. Either they met their (new) soul mate, or just want to be "free" meaning have no responsibilities, or there is some serious problem on the end of the LBSer -in the WAS eyes= that isn't getting fixed and usually it's a combination of some or all of these.
IN my sitch yes h wanted freedom, first and foremost. G was wrong again in that although h said he "would prefer NOT getting a divorce, if that was what it took for him to get to Alaska, that was a chance he was willing to take..." To me that's saying "I want what i want at all costs but won't take responsibility for ending it..." That's how it sounded to the 5 MC's we saw too. LIterally saw 5 and h liked the last one... H Wanted to move 5 times in 6 years for his career, AGAIN,(with a son starting high school and a promise we'd keep them in one place for 3 years for HS, which we both made to the kids) after 12 moves in 17 years almost exclusively for his career, but he also felt that since I was a sahm for 7 years somehow I should no longer have a vote, and he was getting ripped off (my words, not his but not that far from his words, imho). Seems in hindsight, The more he worked, the more I felt the need to be home and perhaps, the more he felt the need to work b/c I was not earning the 6 figures he expected to always have from me. Crazy cycle.
Yes!
But like you, I had to own some things, such as his Love language and mine not matching well= so I have made adjustments on that end and know what you mean about the physical thing being a withholding. We had a great SL, but my problem was that when he'd work late or take extra call, I'd see it as an example of him putting career first. Sometimes it WAS just that. For a minute, Let's say I was "right", and that it always reflected a lousy priority order for him. Okay. So, then was my "crossed- arms- when- he- walked- in- the- door" an effective tool for waking him up? NO! But I continued it For years!! Brilliantly! Why?
B/C I was "right!!" After all AND HE was wrong! Why should I act affectionate and happy and warm when he walks in late? WHat if He thinks his choices are fine and that I'm validating them, and he'll get even more selfish??...and FEARS and blah blah blah. Maybe that is ALL true. Maybe that would have happened and somehow he'd find MORE Call.....
Yes!
But all we know is that my approach did not make him want to come home more. Maybe, just maybe, if I had made the home a warm and happy place to return to, then maybe the adulation of the patients and staff would not have been such a tempting lure compared to the happy eyes of his wife and 3 kids. I don't know. Yes I made mistakes A/K but they did not justify his leaving me and the kids for a JOB...foreign to us, isn't it? But it really is what your h is doing. (Job = ego...) Except my h did still put money on the table in sufficient quantities for us to live. Bye bye to a whole lot of savings, but his work pays well so I won't complain at this point, b/c it is over now anyway. (Let go of that awhile back.)
But today that is something I do handle differently. So that's one lesson learned, and he says things that are unusual for him. Today was a slow, "cheap" day for him wherein the cases were too few and not well paying. Okay, he would have complained about that for several minutes a few years ago. Instead he said he was glad that he got home in time to see d12's basketball game. And washed the car and helped with the dogs. And only 30 seconds talking negatively about the job, which he just started, btw. That's a change I want to encourage. If any or none of this applies or helps you, chuck it or keep it. Just saying that at least I know I am not doing the same old same old. You won't either. That's why you seek to learn from all this and that is what will make your future much brighter.
Also the reality of his moving out and into his own place cannot and will not ever sink in to him, with his stuff still in YOUR place...SO thank GOD he's going...b/c you know A/K, he has already been gone for some time anyway and now it's out in the open and no more denial can keep him from facing this and what he has caused to happen. Never forget that he is the one who left the home. I'm not saying that makes you a victim; I'm saying he and he alone, is responsible for his actions. No one put a gun to his head and said "If you aren't happy with your life or your self or your wife, you can leave the family home and your children, and dump 90% of childcare and finances and hassles, onto her...AND be seen as a nice guy anyhow..." He will try to. Your response, in a calm DB way will do wonders for you, at least. Who knows what will sink into him or if it'll matter and result in some action on his end...someday...or not....?? Don't wait for it though!
I always roll my eyes when the WAS discusses how difficult the LBSer might make it for them to come home and likes to double check their "not a bad guy" status...he'll try to put it on you as to whether there is any hope for a future. As if it's your responsibility if there is no reconciliation - and that is rarely true.
If there comes a time when he wants back in but it's too late, how on earth is that your responsibility? If it is, so be it. You have the right to want a trustworthy spouse. So obvious when it's written out, isn't it?
He'll say "I know you won't ever let me forget this..." (and he'll stare at you for confirmation but you have to constantly treat it as a hypothetical rhetorical question that doesn't generate a direct answer b/c IT IS a hypo and rhetorical question!! Isn't it? And if you must respond, you could ask him, "Are you asking me a question H, or just talking...?" and move on unless he gets really direct and goes for it, and or says something like, "I"m asking what it would take for you to let me come home" and that's when you could again ask HIM the questions, "Are you asking to reconcile or just hang out here a few days in a try out M?" Or "what are you willing to do and are you sure you want to come home and if so, why? For how long?"
I could be wrong, but I'd put as many questions onto him as possible and you be in the 'data' gathering mode, not him. What if he has a blow up at the celebs place or feels insecure for a week, and wants to go home and get his ego stroked, but doesn't actually want to COME home? What if he shows up with only an overnight bag? As in, "want to hang out a few days here...."?? What then?
When he asks about how hard you'd make it, or your family, it's almost as if he imagines this all as if he had a weird weekend binge, or a bad crazy one night stand...but this is full on "HE LEFT HIS FAMILY!" stuff...period. So what if he left some of his things there, (makes it worse to me) or comes around to see his offspring? How excited and grateful must an LBSer get for that scrap?
He's checking you out and you need to be ready b/c as he sees the changes, he'll waver and double check and flirt and say some "I'm being manly now, I get it" things...but the proof is in the pudding. If he takes his stuff and goes, he's truly gone. IF he merely visits, nothing has changed.
Thanks for reminding me because I see that happening already. He is showing me what a great guy he is and wants more time with the kids and is pointing out the nice things he's doing.
When i told you about my two relatives who divorced and remarried 5 and more years later, I hope I mentioned they both got lives when they divorced. THey both moved on and one switched careers, and they moved forward and from what I can tell, neither of them were miserable single people.
Their kids kept them in some contact with the EX S. But my Cousin K, a young man then, drank too much and lacked some important tools for coping with becoming a dad at an early age. The divorce was good b/c he stopped drinking, got a better job, took some classes and saw his son on a regular basis. He became a better dad. He also dated at least one OW for a long time. I think they even lived together for over a year. That R ended and at some point his ex w, who had also stopped the partying, became less angry and they bonded some as friends and co=parents. Somehow I know he wanted her back but I can't recall what exactly transpired except suddenly they were dating again. THen he moved back in and there was a wedding. That was now about 14 years for the 2nd M. They are happy.
My aunt, on the other hand, div for reasons unknown to me. I know she and my uncle fought a lot. They divorced, and kept in touch b/c of the 3 kids. I don't think there was a big amount of hatred but more of a "good riddance" attitude. But at some function several years later, he asked my aunt if she was happier now. She said, "Not really, and you?" And they had coffee that day after the kid's event. THey dated, fought less and with better results, and remarried. He got cancer 6 years later and she and the kids were at his side on his deathbed. I wish I knew more details but I do know this remarriage happens. In all the cases of M's that reconcile and stay together, my gut tells me it's b/c one or both knows they can GAL and did. ANd one of both realize they had a pretty good thing. I know a couple who reconciled b/c the "outside" world wasn't what they hoped for and so they "settled" for what was at home. OR were just too afraid their spouses would date others. Don't know if that is bad or good but it's hopelessly repetitive if there was no growth.
So, what's your next step?ANd what would you do, professionally, and where, if you could do whatever you wanted to do and live where ever you wanted to live? [color:#FF0000]Trying to sort out where to live based on many factors and boy is that overwhelming, move schools? move to an area I always dreamed of moving to but is further from family etc. Doing what I want to do...that is getting clearer, woohoo! I have a meeting this morning to discuss a project and I am so excited!!! And what would a cool man for you be like? What would you be like with this new, cool guy? How would you be the same and how would you be different? Really, I am not in a place to start constructing my new guy. Some things come to mind and I notice but I have to be about me right now.[/color]And btw, are you feeling good lately about your appearance? I don't recall if you said you needed to exercise for your mental well being or needed to lose weight or whatever. Right or wrong, women care about our appearances soooo much. My mother is pretty tough like that. She was and is a beautiful woman and now, even at 87, she cares way too much about her weight. She weighs maybe 120 and is 5'4". She asked me if I think she should get a facelift!! Somehow I find her vanity almost endearing at this age. Who is she hoping to meet? (My father died in '93.) My point is that we women vest a lot of our self esteem on how we think we look and we are pretty hard on ourselves in that department. I can count on one hand how many women I have EVER known, who were truly happy with their present weights...*geez, I think that's literally true*...
I am, if anything, too skinny at this point. I put energy into how I look but there is no way I can compete (if we're just talking about looks) with the women H is exposed to right now. Of course, it hits my insecurities but I know that is not where I want to put too much of my energy.
Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back, but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy. I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.
(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)
Meaning, DBing isn't just about saving M's. It is so much more than that. And b/c of what we learn HERE, we are better partners regardless of who those partners are or become. This is about us being happier with ourselves. Make sense? That counts! And with the 2nd marriages terrible divorce rate (2/3 of 2nd m's end in div BUT 80% of 2nd M's end in div IF the reason for the DIV was OP and that OP marries the WAS.)..so someone who leaves a spouse for OP, and marries that OP, has a 1 in 5 chance of making it long term with their new "Soulmate"....geez, so much pain for that, and with those odds?)
You are right to care about what you learn from all this. Jesus, who'd want to endure this a 2nd time? Are you on the db fb group? If so, let me know. I have a way to connect.
Take care,
((( j )))
Holy cow 25!!!! I related to soooo much in there!!! I have to figure out the fb thing. I got off of there because of H drama (still have the page, just inactive). Maybe I will make a new alias for the DB connections. It would be lovely to meet IRL.
Thank you 25. I am off to my meeting. Yay!!!
My biggest fault is not knowing that I could be on my own. I latched on to H before my own egg had hatched and now I have to do it. When I wake up with so much fear (trembling), I know that it is MY insecurity that has held me back and that contributed to my disgruntlement in my M. Needing someone is just not healthy, especially if it is someone with their own giant bag of issues.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Amen...love the "Before my egg hatched" analogy too. You have hatched! You are walking!!
You will make it.
Keep us posted... j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
So, H will move out next week. We have to figure out how to tell the kids and handle the move. I need all the input I can get.
H suggested he could turn it into a positive and I lost it again (oh well), they need to be able to show us how they feel about it, not have us project onto them. Both kids have expressed hope that he will come home...this will be a real heartbreaker.
H was offended that I wasn't appreciative that he scraped up money to pay ONE of our bills. We are drowning and he is adding more expenses...
My meeting this morning was great. Things are progressing well on my website.
Dealing with H is like getting my eyebrows waxed only in slomo.
Agree to what is being said and have him say it so that the kids understand that it is HIS decision and not yours.
The next time he gets offended about the bill thing, just say 'thanks! here's the rest of them. since these affect your kids I'm glad you're taking initiative to take care of them." Then walk away.
See what he says about that!
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
So, H will move out next week. We have to figure out how to tell the kids and handle the move. I need all the input I can get.
H suggested he could turn it into a positive and I lost it again (oh well), they need to be able to show us how they feel about it, not have us project onto them. Both kids have expressed hope that he will come home...this will be a real heartbreaker.
H was offended that I wasn't appreciative that he scraped up money to pay ONE of our bills. We are drowning and he is adding more expenses...
My meeting this morning was great. Things are progressing well on my website.
Dealing with H is like getting my eyebrows waxed only in slomo.
This "turning it into a positive" is, as you know, something that rankled me. It deflects from their feelings. To me, having just lived through it, do whatever you can to let them know it isn't their fault and make sure they have room to express their feelings. I forget how old your children are, but even my 9 year-old could tell what was really going on. You can't keep H from doing what he'll do or saying what he will, but if I had a do over, I would have reminded W before the "talk" that "This is about their feelings, not ours." She may not have taken it to heart, but it can serve as a reminder to you, too, to not let anything he says suck you in to a place where you lose your focus.
Last edited by AlexEN; 07/10/0909:21 PM.
New: What a Weekend
H-48 WAW-49 M-22 S-14,9 D-11 EA disc.-11/07 PA disc.-3/08 EA2?-6/08 to ?
What can I say? The only way to get through the pain is to get 