Yay!!!!! Finally a new thread.

[25yearsmlc]

A/K,

You are again projecting the worst case scenario and not imagining other possibilities. That is fear based choice making and so far, it has paralyzed you. Try something new and make your imaging a reality. I'm not saying "Read 'THE SECRET' and all will be well" but there is some truth to it. You know, project a positive image of what you would like to have in your life that you can create that with a good goal in mind. Work toward that and not away from the fears.

((( j )))

[aliveandkicking]

25, I must have miscommunicated. If anything, I think I set the bar too high. I am hoping that the projects I am putting my energy into will garner enough income to keep me from having to go the "anything" route. I am very excited about them. It is a bit of a game of chicken as to whether I can make something happen in time to be on my own.

And, I did watch The Secret and within reason I see the possibilities. Truth be told, the clearer I get as to what I am capable of and interested in, the more opportunities are trickling in. Nothing too stable yet but I am putting it out there and hoping that a PMA and focusing on what I want will pay off.

I also understand that sometimes you've got to do what you gotta do.

[25yearsmlc]

25, I must have miscommunicated. If anything, I think I set the bar too high. I am hoping that the projects I am putting my energy into will garner enough income to keep me from having to go the "anything" route. I am very excited about them. It is a bit of a game of chicken as to whether I can make something happen in time to be on my own.

And, I did watch The Secret and within reason I see the possibilities.
BTW I'm not exactly convinced that all it takes is positive imaging of course. (I thought the book and concept were not very novel and could not believe that it was received as if some profound concept had just been discovered...anyhow....)

Truth be told, the clearer I get as to what I am capable of and interested in, the more opportunities are trickling in. Nothing too stable yet but I am putting it out there and hoping that a PMA and focusing on what I want will pay off.

I also understand that sometimes you've got to do what you gotta do.

Amen to that. Been there, done that. Worst job I ever had was right after finishing college, so that was a super nice 'reward'...not...And some of my friends in law school had very dreary jobs but as you say, "you do what you gotta do". My best friend in law school who made the most money was a waiter, btw. Whatever. I know that if my kids need food, there's no legal job I would not take. I'm not too proud for that if it's my kids mouths that need food.

But you are nowhere near that spot are you? Aren't we just discussing some serious downsizing but not lowering of a safety standard? (I'm not minimizing the emotional part, but for a minute just focusing on the logistics).

You need to live in a place that has good enough schools, which usually goes along with relatively safe places and neighborhoods. It has to be affordable, and the one thing good about this recession is that prices are lower now. Keep it simple A/K. You don't have to have your whole life planned out by tuesday at 4 pm, in order to move forward. KWIM? I think you are ripe for growth and movement and you are really getting there.

Try hard not to give in to the periodic panic attacks we all have. I had a woman doctor client who told me she was afraid of being on her own despite a terrible M with violence. She said she feared being on her own b/c maybe she'd "end up on welfare" and I was baffled. She had a part time job with a low 6 figure income...(She stayed at home with the kids half time, but stayed current in her field, obviously). It just reminded me of how much fear can play in our lives. She had the means for more than mere survival, but was literally terrified. Child care and the logistics, being alone, etc. really were paralyzing her. IT happens to all of us. You just have to move forward despite the fears. Keep it real and face what is realistically the worst case scenario and you may find that it is actually not so terrible. I figured at one point if I ended up living with a sister in her basement, I could survive that too. You can too. You have parents who are available if necessary. And we're here for you.

As others have said elsewhere, you really will be alright no matter what.
((( j )))

[aliveandkicking]

BTW I'm not exactly convinced that all it takes is positive imaging of course. (I thought the book and concept were not very novel and could not believe that it was received as if some profound concept had just been discovered...anyhow....)

Ya, I'm with you. That is why I try to find a realistic balance and if I have to supplement my income I will. But you are right that I am lucky enough to think bigger and give it a little time.

Ultimately, there may be more freedom in cutting ties even if I have to work a dreary job for a while. I'm just sorting it out.

The Secret is funny because it sort of added to rich people's entitlement and giving them more of a superiority complex about how they had manifested all of that wealth and impeded their abilities to empathize with others (as if that wasn't already a problem). Plus, for those of us struggling on any financial level, it can really create inferiority complexes...I mean, "why can't I just believe harder and manifest more???"

To me you set your intentions and you work your a** of to make it a reality, not just sit around visualizing.

Everything in perspective right?

I can't remember that quote that I think Coach used about facing the facts of your circumstances while still having hope...aargh, what was it???

[Coach]

In a business book by James C. Collins called Good to Great, Collins writes about a conversation he had with Stockdale regarding his coping strategy during his period in the Vietnamese POW camp.[3]

"I never lost faith in the end of the story, I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade."[4]

When Collins asked who didn't make it out, Stockdale replied:

"Oh, that’s easy, the optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, 'We're going to be out by Christmas.' And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they'd say, 'We're going to be out by Easter.' And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart."[4]

Stockdale then added:

"This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”[4]

Witnessing this philosophy of duality, Collins went on to describe it as the Stockdale Paradox.

[givingitmyall]

I LOVE THAT QUOTE AND PRINCIPLE.

[aliveandkicking]

Coach- I knew you'd come through!!

[25yearsmlc]

"Good to Great" is a truly good book with profound implications for business and guess what else? Life...yeah, I read that for my last job and did find it insightful and valuable and good for a whole lot of things...

Carry on A/K, I know you are getting somewhere. I can feel it.
j-

[aliveandkicking]

I know you are getting somewhere. I can feel it.

That is just awesome.

This is moving along. H will be moving into his own place.

I must confess we had a long conversation last night and I mean loooong. And, so much was said, I can't even summarize accept to say that he is going. At the same time, he kept bringing up how it would be so embarrassing if he came back and I would never forgive him or would I be able to and my family and his friends etc. I addressed it pretty swiftly; basically anyone and everyone I know would like to see us get back together IF we could have a happy healthy marriage. There were too many questions and too much explored for me to think he is not wavering. But, he is still going.

My focus in the conversation was our current R and not us getting back together and I realize now that when we talk about what kind of R we want here on DB.com (as the LBS) it feels so absurd in the beginning. Me? Have demands? When I've been left behind? What's the point? But, I see in dealing with him all of these months apart that whether friendship or M or NC, I have needs. I was ashamed to post on here that I had that convo with H. But, you know what? It was good and the only reason I stayed on was because he was lucid and he was responsive and he was honest (relatively of course). His own depiction of himself was someone capable of self-delusion and his portrayal of himself was possibly sociopathic. Of course much of it also sounded like WAS admitting to the ways of WASness so I was not diagnosing.

What's the point of a convo like that? It helps so much. This is not an acute situation. His mentality, priorities and erratic, evasive and behavior have been issues for years. His blaming me has been unbearable for years. Recognizing this helps me to breathe and know that I am coping, that I am not responsible for all of this. And, that I want/need something different and I articulated that. Of course, I am going to have to create it for myself (can't rely on him) but it was still good to get him on board at least as a starting point.

Today, he was supercool, superdad...weird. He really has a wonderful side.

And, he is sobering about where he has been staying (he says it was something I said that made him think about it) and he does not want to take any money from his friend without working for it. He is still trying to impress me. Not sure if that is a good thing. I realize it may be helpful in getting through D but I don't know how healthy it is.

Anyway, the little things are tearing my heart a little. H going through boxes and preparing for his new place. It is tough stuff but no one said this wouldn't hurt.

[25yearsmlc]

Geez A/K,
(First off-you said the longer the better...so here it comes...)

Ouch...yeah it does hurt deeply, to have a talk like that and see him packing... What can I say? The only way to get through the pain is to get through it. You are.

It's sinking in for both of you. I would imagine you'll see some gestures towards you on his end, b/c he'll get scared and want to know you are still there for him. He'll make a few non commital comments or moves to insure you are not really moving on without him...???

Do what you will, but I'd urge you to think long and hard before just... being there for him. It's one thing to be his friend/co-parent, and quite another to be "there for him". He won't come back if he knows you are still there waiting--why should he?-- and as I said before and was said elsewhere, he's not likely to "just wake up & come back" anyhow. Sorry honey. I'm not clairvoyant, but he has been gone awhile now and shoot, he's still gone, so....what's there to say?

Glad you had the talk and made the focus on making a decent co-parenting R now, not how to reconcile. Oh Yeah it's funny about being the LBSer and having "demands"..."MOI??" how'd that come up and get expressed anyway? Curious. But it IS a matter of what it would take on YOUR end which means what you would expect/require from HIS END...and whether the two will ever match up.

For some time now there has been a huge disconnect between what he will give, and what you deserve and need. Someday you will be like other "post" DBers who go on to have better Ms later on. G- says a lot of things that I disagree with but the main point I want to make is that there are far worse things than ending up divorced. That may be something he means. I post here not to just tell anyone to wait things out. I always talk about GAL b/c no matter the sitch, how can that ever be bad advice?
Don't know why he doesn't see that if he really has read my posts. The fact that I don't tell you or Kevin to date, even if I think it's a good idea, is out of respect for MWD AND the fact that people posting here tend not to want that type of advice. They want to know if they can save their M's and if not, what to do. Most are healthy enough to know they are not ready to date in any meaningful way. Sure it would probably get your h's attention. I don't see
why it wouldn't. Do you want to? Could you keep your kids from finding out? Why did you get scared that time it began to freak him out and he came running back? Why didn't you keep on with that action plan? (This actually would have pleased Gucci, b/c it's in his 'plan' but you flipped out for some reason I never fully understood...do you remember?)

Anyhow, The WAS's usually fit a few patterns, or seem to. Either they met their (new) soul mate, or just want to be "free" meaning have no responsibilities, or there is some serious problem on the end of the LBSer -in the WAS eyes= that isn't getting fixed and usually it's a combination of some or all of these.

IN my sitch yes h wanted freedom, first and foremost. G was wrong again in that although h said he "would prefer NOT getting a divorce, if that was what it took for him to get to Alaska, that was a chance he was willing to take..."
To me that's saying "I want what i want at all costs but won't take responsibility for ending it..." That's how it sounded to the 5 MC's we saw too. LIterally saw 5 and h liked the last one...
H Wanted to move 5 times in 6 years for his career, AGAIN,(with a son starting high school and a promise we'd keep them in one place for 3 years for HS, which we both made to the kids) after 12 moves in 17 years almost exclusively for his career, but he also felt that since I was a sahm for 7 years somehow I should no longer have a vote, and he was getting ripped off (my words, not his but not that far from his words, imho). Seems in hindsight, The more he worked, the more I felt the need to be home and perhaps, the more he felt the need to work b/c I was not earning the 6 figures he expected to always have from me. Crazy cycle.

But like you, I had to own some things, such as his Love language and mine not matching well= so I have made adjustments on that end and know what you mean about the physical thing being a withholding. We had a great SL, but my problem was that when he'd work late or take extra call, I'd see it as an example of him putting career first. Sometimes it WAS just that. For a minute, Let's say I was "right", and that it always reflected a lousy priority order for him. Okay. So, then was my "crossed- arms- when- he- walked- in- the- door" an effective tool for waking him up? NO! But I continued it For years!! Brilliantly! Why?

B/C I was "right!!" After all AND HE was wrong! Why should I act affectionate and happy and warm when he walks in late? WHat if He thinks his choices are fine and that I'm validating them, and he'll get even more selfish??...and FEARS and blah blah blah. Maybe that is ALL true. Maybe that would have happened and somehow he'd find MORE Call.....

But all we know is that my approach did not make him want to come home more. Maybe, just maybe, if I had made the home a warm and happy place to return to, then maybe the adulation of the patients and staff would not have been such a tempting lure compared to the happy eyes of his wife and 3 kids. I don't know. Yes I made mistakes A/K but they did not justify his leaving me and the kids for a JOB...foreign to us, isn't it? But it really is what your h is doing. (Job = ego...) Except my h did still put money on the table in sufficient quantities for us to live. Bye bye to a whole lot of savings, but his work pays well so I won't complain at this point, b/c it is over now anyway. (Let go of that awhile back.)

But today that is something I do handle differently. So that's one lesson learned, and he says things that are unusual for him. Today was a slow, "cheap" day for him wherein the cases were too few and not well paying. Okay, he would have complained about that for several minutes a few years ago. Instead he said he was glad that he got home in time to see d12's basketball game. And washed the car and helped with the dogs. And only 30 seconds talking negatively about the job, which he just started, btw. That's a change I want to encourage. If any or none of this applies or helps you, chuck it or keep it. Just saying that at least I know I am not doing the same old same old. You won't either. That's why you seek to learn from all this and that is what will make your future much brighter.

Also the reality of his moving out and into his own place cannot and will not ever sink in to him, with his stuff still in YOUR place...SO thank GOD he's going...b/c you know A/K, he has already been gone for some time anyway and now it's out in the open and no more denial can keep him from facing this and what he has caused to happen. Never forget that he is the one who left the home. I'm not saying that makes you a victim; I'm saying he and he alone, is responsible for his actions. No one put a gun to his head and said "If you aren't happy with your life or your self or your wife, you can leave the family home and your children, and dump 90% of childcare and finances and hassles, onto her...AND be seen as a nice guy anyhow..."
He will try to. Your response, in a calm DB way will do wonders for you, at least. Who knows what will sink into him or if it'll matter and result in some action on his end...someday...or not....?? Don't wait for it though!

I always roll my eyes when the WAS discusses how difficult the LBSer might make it for them to come home and likes to double check their "not a bad guy" status...he'll try to put it on you as to whether there is any hope for a future. As if it's your responsibility if there is no reconciliation - and that is rarely true.

If there comes a time when he wants back in but it's too late, how on earth is that your responsibility? If it is, so be it. You have the right to want a trustworthy spouse. So obvious when it's written out, isn't it?

He'll say "I know you won't ever let me forget this..." (and he'll stare at you for confirmation but you have to constantly treat it as a hypothetical rhetorical question that doesn't generate a direct answer b/c IT IS a hypo and rhetorical question!! Isn't it? And if you must respond, you could ask him, "Are you asking me a question H, or just talking...?" and move on unless he gets really direct and goes for it, and or says something like, "I"m asking what it would take for you to let me come home" and that's when you could again ask HIM the questions, "Are you asking to reconcile or just hang out here a few days in a try out M?" Or "what are you willing to do and are you sure you want to come home and if so, why? For how long?"

I could be wrong, but I'd put as many questions onto him as possible and you be in the 'data' gathering mode, not him. What if he has a blow up at the celebs place or feels insecure for a week, and wants to go home and get his ego stroked, but doesn't actually want to COME home? What if he shows up with only an overnight bag? As in, "want to hang out a few days here...."?? What then?

When he asks about how hard you'd make it, or your family, it's almost as if he imagines this all as if he had a weird weekend binge, or a bad crazy one night stand...but this is full on "HE LEFT HIS FAMILY!" stuff...period. So what if he left some of his things there, (makes it worse to me) or comes around to see his offspring? How excited and grateful must an LBSer get for that scrap?

He's checking you out and you need to be ready b/c as he sees the changes, he'll waver and double check and flirt and say some "I'm being manly now, I get it" things...but the proof is in the pudding. If he takes his stuff and goes, he's truly gone.
IF he merely visits, nothing has changed.

When i told you about my two relatives who divorced and remarried 5 and more years later, I hope I mentioned they both got lives when they divorced. THey both moved on and one switched careers, and they moved forward and from what I can tell, neither of them were miserable single people.

Their kids kept them in some contact with the EX S. But my Cousin K, a young man then, drank too much and lacked some important tools for coping with becoming a dad at an early age. The divorce was good b/c he stopped drinking, got a better job, took some classes and saw his son on a regular basis. He became a better dad. He also dated at least one OW for a long time. I think they even lived together for over a year. That R ended and at some point his ex w, who had also stopped the partying, became less angry and they bonded some as friends and co=parents. Somehow I know he wanted her back but I can't recall what exactly transpired except suddenly they were dating again. THen he moved back in and there was a wedding. That was now about 14 years for the 2nd M. They are happy.

My aunt, on the other hand, div for reasons unknown to me. I know she and my uncle fought a lot. They divorced, and kept in touch b/c of the 3 kids. I don't think there was a big amount of hatred but more of a "good riddance" attitude. But at some function several years later, he asked my aunt if she was happier now. She said, "Not really, and you?" And they had coffee that day after the kid's event. THey dated, fought less and with better results, and remarried. He got cancer 6 years later and she and the kids were at his side on his deathbed. I wish I knew more details but I do know this remarriage happens. In all the cases of M's that reconcile and stay together, my gut tells me it's b/c one or both knows they can GAL and did. ANd one of both realize they had a pretty good thing. I know a couple who reconciled b/c the "outside" world wasn't what they hoped for and so they "settled" for what was at home. OR were just too afraid their spouses would date others. Don't know if that is bad or good but it's hopelessly repetitive if there was no growth.

So, what's your next step? ANd what would you do, professionally, and where, if you could do whatever you wanted to do and live where ever you wanted to live? And what would a cool man for you be like? What would you be like with this new, cool guy? How would you be the same and how would you be different? And btw, are you feeling good lately about your appearance? I don't recall if you said you needed to exercise for your mental well being or needed to lose weight or whatever. Right or wrong, women care about our appearances soooo much. My mother is pretty tough like that. She was and is a beautiful woman and now, even at 87, she cares way too much about her weight. She weighs maybe 120 and is 5'4". She asked me if I think she should get a facelift!! Somehow I find her vanity almost endearing at this age. Who is she hoping to meet? (My father died in '93.) My point is that we women vest a lot of our self esteem on how we think we look and we are pretty hard on ourselves in that department. I can count on one hand how many women I have EVER known, who were truly happy with their present weights...*geez, I think that's literally true*...

Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back, but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy. I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.

(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)

Meaning, DBing isn't just about saving M's. It is so much more than that. And b/c of what we learn HERE, we are better partners regardless of who those partners are or become. This is about us being happier with ourselves. Make sense? That counts! And with the 2nd marriages terrible divorce rate (2/3 of 2nd m's end in div BUT 80% of 2nd M's end in div IF the reason for the DIV was OP and that OP marries the WAS.)..so someone who leaves a spouse for OP, and marries that OP, has a 1 in 5 chance of making it long term with their new "Soulmate"....geez, so much pain for that, and with those odds?)

You are right to care about what you learn from all this. Jesus, who'd want to endure this a 2nd time? Are you on the db fb group? If so, let me know. I have a way to connect.

Take care,

((( j )))