"Exposure" vs. "Shame"

[saffie]

I exposed big time. To one and all. I agree with Sara, the shame was all my H's.

I did explain that there had been trouble in the M that had led to my H's A and that he was by no way alone in having caused what happened.

You have to take each situation and judge it on it's own merits. For me exposure was the way to go.

My kids were 15,13,11 and 8 at the time. They knew what was going on although the 8yr old was not so in the picture. My 13yr old, unbeknownst to me contacted OW and told her exactly what she was doing to her family and what she thought of her.

We live in a small communiity. I was not going to hide what my H had done. If I hadn't exposed my H would have tried to get into a cake eating sitch and there was no way I would stomach that.

Exposure is tuff, you never know which way things will fall; it's like ripping off a plaster fast instead of soaking it off slowly. More pain up front but over more quickly hopefully.

My H and I are very happily reconciled now.

[25yearsmlc]

Sara,

fyi, I believe one size does not fit all, and sense you agree. I can't say what I'd do in your sitch with all adult kids and surely would not judge it as you can tell by my last post to you.

I am concerned about how it affects kids of any age. However, more important to me are the more extreme forms of "Exposure". I know people who have urged disclosure/exposure to "family and friends and OP's family and community" (??) to be "fully informed" and even employer groups in some cases. I had a client at Legal Aid tell me that she "wanted to tell OW's kids to their faces to see the same hurt on their faces that she had seen on her children's..." (I literally worry for her safety and other's. That type of anger and consuming bitterness is something that isn't holy, obviously. But it's also so unhealthy and it's ruining HER life, not her h's...I'll never forget that day.)

I wondered when, in the course of events, did you tell the kids? Was it to explain why there were problems with you guys, or Did your kids play a part in ending it, or was the mere fact they knew, enough for your h to end it? If they did play some sort of role, how was that for them? And if you have something that helped your children to still see their dad lovingly (though not necessarily the same as before) I'd love to know of it. D20 says she'll go to c, but I don't think she means "with" h...at least not at first. Yes - I'm backing off and just leaving that to God. (or trying to )

With time and prayer and her seeing us model our M as it once was and being as close as we have been the past year (she was overseas so this is the first time we'll all live under the same roof for more than 2 weeks, in 4 years...)

I hope & believe all the kids will someday leave it behind them. Hopefully we'll leave them a legacy of commitment and forgiveness that is unfortunately rare today. The kids used to really admire their dad, (though they hated his long hours). Time, time time...A finite resource and we're all given an unknown amount...well again - good for you. We are all works in progress. I look forward to seeing more of your posts.
j-

(( j ))

[pearlharbr]

I started out trying to follow the DB coach's advice to be the better woman and let the A run its course. But it was taking a terrible toll on my self esteem (as Puppy witnessed). I decided to end his cake eating and make the choice for him.

Prior to that I had exposed to his family because we were supposed to go see them for Christmas together. I knew he wouldn't say anything to them about what was going on and just let them assume that I didn't want to spend the holidays with them. Since there were already hard feelings between me and his mother I felt that I could not let this go without explaining my side. To not say anything would further damage that relationship which would be important if BF and I ever worked things out. I also told his best friend because we are named as custodial guardians of their daughter in their will and I felt that was an important issue that needed to be addressed. They had a right to know that we had split up and when best friend's wife asked why I told her the truth.

Other than that only a couple of my closest friends knew. After I kicked him out I was honest with everyone who asked why we broke up. I wasn't exposing out of revenge or with thoughts that it would hasten the demise of the A. In general I am an oversharer. I have no problems discussing personal things with my friends and feel close to others through sharing. So I did it because it was no different than any other issue that has come up in my life.

Like Saffie I explained that there were issues between us before BF's affair and that I took responsibility for those problems, but the cheating was all on him. So pretty much all my friends and family have at least the basic details of what happened. And BF knows that. That didn't stop him from wanting to come back a month after I threw him out. It hasn't been an issue in our reconciliation process thus far, not sure if it will be in the future. I've had to deal with telling them that we're working things out knowing that overall they think I should have just walked away. If BF wants to repair his relationships with them then that's his responsibility, not mine. Just another facet of choose the actions, choose the consequences.

Did exposure help end the affair? I don't think so but I haven't asked BF so I'm not sure. His parents never mentioned to him that I told them what was going on between us. His best friend was completely supportive of BF and although best friend's wife was furious with BF she never said anything to him. None of my friends or family ever contacted him.

Did exposure hurt our chances at reconciliation? Not yet.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

(If you know you won't reconcile, and no innocents would be harmed...I can see some very creative ways and reasons to expose...oh yeah...)

It's interesting that you bring this up, 25, because I'm actually of the opposite view. I (and most proponents of exposure) am ONLY in favor of exposure if you ARE trying to save the marriage. This came up yesterday on ndsmhlp's thread, and I advised him -- as I advise everyone -- that if you know you DON'T want to remain married, that I don't think he should expose, as he'd only be doing it out of vindictiveness.

Just thought I'd clarify that. Whether or not you believe in exposure, most of us that do, DO try to use it very much as a means to end the affair, REMAIN MARRIED, and to try and begin reconciliation sooner, rather than later. We do, however, acknowledge that while it may by sooner, there will now often be some additional damage that has been done, that will need to be worked thru, because we chose to expose.

I'll check out Stuck's thread -- thanks for the heads up.

Puppy

[saffie]

25yrs,

I know you directed your questions at Sara but I wanted to explain a bit to you about my children.

They realised what was going on, as when my H told me of his A things got VERY vocal in our house and there was no hiding what was going on.

My elder girls decided on that night that they were taking 'my side' and that was what resulted in my 13yr old phoning the OW. For reasons too hard to explain on here my 13 yr old ended up with her father's sim card and so had the number. I never wanted her to contact the OW and neither my H or I knew anything about it at the time.

Very quickly we sat down with all our children and explained to them that they were very much loved and came first. We also explained to them together that there are two sides to every story and that they should not judge their father unfairly and take sides. We told them quite clearly that I had contributed 50% to the M breakdown- I may not have gone out and had an A, but I hadn't been as loving and kind a W as I could have been. For some time I had emotionally been checked out of the M.

They saw things they shouldn't have - a suicide attempt amongst them- but they did come through and they love their father hugely. They might not fully understand what exactly went wrong but they do know that the A was a symptom of the M not being right and that we all needed a new chance together.

I worry about my son who was 11 at the time and who refused to talk to anyone about it. Even now, when he sees me look sad ,he comes up and gives me a hug on the sly. He seems to try and measure the M temperature the most and is the most protective toward me, but having said that he has an amazingly good R with his dad.

I hope that we have proved to our children that M is not an easy thing, that one does need to work at it, but that one can survive these things and go on and enjoy a good M again.

BTW, as an aside, my psychiatrist who I ended up seeing after the suicide attempt, made it very clear to my H that he needed to make clear, decisive decisions for both my sake and the children's. He said no try at 'cake eating' and no fudging the boundaries. That the children saw it in black and white at their ages and that my H had to be completely committed in what he did. He was and things have gone from strength to strenght.

[NoCodeBlues]

I (and most proponents of exposure) am ONLY in favor of exposure if you ARE trying to save the marriage. This came up yesterday on ndsmhlp's thread, and I advised him -- as I advise everyone -- that if you know you DON'T want to remain married, that I don't think he should expose, as he'd only be doing it out of vindictiveness.

Well, I can say that in my own case, I have given up trying to save my M. The D is final, and since the bomb my exW has done everything she could possibly do to burn the bridges. In this she has "poisoned the well" and "salted the earth" against any peaceable R we might have tried to work out between us. I honored her "request" (read, "demand") at the outset that we not reveal all the difficulties between us to family, friends and acquaintances, instead suggesting we say that our marriage was suffering some difficulties but "we're working on it." (Hah!)

Meanwhile, as I would discover over time, not only did she not adhere to this agreement, but she was actively speaking to these same people about how I was the problem and that she had to end our marriage because of how "abusive" I was to her and our children. In other words, while I protected her reputation and honored her call for discretion, she used that as her opportunity to get her story out first.

Now, should I decide to say anything to these other parties, I risk the definite chance of coming off as just being mean and vindictive. Basically, just "sour grapes".

But I have now decided to take another view on this and to begin to set the record straight if at all possible. And while I still run the risk of these steps to get the truth out there as being seen as merely an act of vengeance, and even though I have no anticipation that my M would be restored by this (even if I really thought that was still in my best interests or that of my S's), I act for the reason that exW's smear campaign against me was calculated to help her take our children away from me. THAT is the other, albeit extreme, scenario that I feel exposure might be necessary.

In my opinion, I think "shame" is less of an issue because there are some people who just cannot be shamed, especially in today's selfish and materialistic society. I might garner a bit more compassion for the concept of the "abuse" of guilt were it not for the fact that too many people think all guilt should be suppressed or is unhealthy. If one lacks a real value system, then perhaps so, and thus we should all excuse anything we or someone else may do.

Now having said that, in any case, the main thing we need to keep in mind, and I mentioned this in my own thread, is that Christians should be prepared to confront others with their transgressions, but, as the Apostle Paul put it, "speaking the truth with love." That is, not out of vengeance or vindictiveness, but out of compassion for those who transgress.

I admit that is a tall order, and perhaps this is the hair being split in this thread (hmmm, too many metaphors?) That's where we have to continue to pray and to ask God to help us search within ourselves for our motives and the spirit by which we really act. I'm finding myself continually reassessing my own course of action while on my knees, as it is easy to second guess myself, one way or the other.

None of this is really cut-and-dried, I guess. As with most hings, we have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

In my own case, at various points, I seem to have to choose between the lesser of evils. I often feel that I am forced to take options that, while not so great and with difficult side-effects, have even worse alternatives. Exposing to targeted individuals now seems to be one of those -- because had I known two years ago now what I didn't know then, I would have sang like a canary to all who cared to listen. Suppressing the truth (or just playing "dumb" with other parties) has not been good for my own sitch.

[karen43]

My theory is the truth is the right way to go. If someone asks me a ? I answer with the truth; not going to sugar coat it anymore. I covered up for several months and it was a relief to finally be honest. My good friends all know the truth and I don't lie anymore. If a WAS feels shame over the truth, then maybe they should change their own actions. Karen

[Sara]

My story is not very different than Saffie's. The kids knew right away because let's just say sound travels well in our house. So they heard the accusation the first time I made it, and they heard the lies. My youngest son had some time alone with his Dad and got the lies direct from the horse's mouth, and told me with tears in his eyes, that his Dad was not lying and I should forgive him for going away for 4 days with no contact.

So exposure of the truth also had to be shared. I was not the only one being fed lies. As for how it ended, my oldest son at that time liked to think of himself as a real tough guy. foul mouth, all that. So, like Saffie's children, we had the phone call records and he said he had something he wanted to say to OW. I didn't stop him. Apparently, what he had to say sounded a lot like a death threat. She called my H immediately and ended the affair. H tried for a few hours to blame us and put it back together with her, but no one was cooperating. So he had no choice. It was over. He tried to hold a grudge for a while. But how mad can you be at your kid protecting his family?

The boys were great. They both told me that if there was a divorce they would insist on living with H and OW and make their lives hell. I knew they could do it! I was really proud of my kids and how they were fighting for their family.

Forgiving their Dad? They all did it silently. They wanted their family intact and we went to Retrouvaille and kept the family intact. So they forgave. And forgot. They all know that love relationships are difficult. They are not too judgemental.

Did Retrouvaille give us direction? Absolutely. They gave us a path to follow. A tried and true path that thousands of others had followed to marital happiness. We followed the path precisely, never missed a session, never rejected their advice. We had a sense of which side of the bread had the butter on it by the time the weekend was over, and we were ready to give up selfishness to reach the greater good.

I usually do have a Retrouvaille thread going. It has been dormant for a few weeks. I will go bump it so that you can find it. There is a lot of good info on it.

[25yearsmlc]

(If you know you won't reconcile, and no innocents would be harmed...I can see some very creative ways and reasons to expose...oh yeah...)

It's interesting that you bring this up, 25, because I'm actually of the opposite view. I (and most proponents of exposure) am ONLY in favor of exposure if you ARE trying to save the marriage. This came up yesterday on ndsmhlp's thread, and I advised him -- as I advise everyone -- that if you know you DON'T want to remain married, that I don't think he should expose, as he'd only be doing it out of vindictiveness.

Just thought I'd clarify that. Whether or not you believe in exposure, most of us that do, DO try to use it very much as a means to end the affair, REMAIN MARRIED, and to try and begin reconciliation sooner, rather than later. We do, however, acknowledge that while it may by sooner, there will now often be some additional damage that has been done, that will need to be worked thru, because we chose to expose.

I'll check out Stuck's thread -- thanks for the heads up.

Puppy

Just so you know, I was pretty much kidding. But I take your point.
j-

[smith18]

My all time favorite exposing of an affair was this one with 5 gallons of ice water:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1355105