What to tell the kids when you are NOT sure it's over??? A toughie. Don't say "Divorce" until if and when you know. You can say at some point, "mommy and daddy are taking a time out"...?? Just a thought. I told our d11 (then d8-9) WHEN she asked whether we were getting a div, "I sure hope not b/c I really love your dad and I know he loves me"....and told her when she asked if we were going to move again (very frightening), "I'll always put your happiness first when it comes to what we're going to do" and then stressed what would remain the same, like our house and her school and friends, etc. which for us was true.
(( j ))
Ok, redo. I get the gist of it and it is pretty in sync with the way I communicate with them. I need to give myself more credit. And, I want to stop being so negative.
1. What are the rules as far as H's access to the house? 2. What will we do about finances? Have H see L first? 3. What kind of communication is healthy for H and me? If he starts talking about himself, what is my response? 4. If H involves kids, ie. "I wasn't invited" or "mommy doesn't want me to come in"...how do I respond? Generally, how do I respond when and if he acts out? 5. Does his stuff stay in the house? (I think yes for now). 6. Do we have a conversation about what is changing? I think yes but willing to reconsider.
Off to feed kiddos. I know this seems him-centric but I need to face my fears one by one.
Please don't beat yourself up so bad. This isn't an easy thing to go through and DB isn't something that just comes to us instinctively. Honestly, hon, sometimes it takes longer to get it than it seems it should.
Face the things you fear the most. Take the baby steps - for you first. Let go and let God where your H is concerned. Focus on those kiddos, and on what makes you happy.
Enjoy every little small pleasure you can. Enjoy the smell of freshly brewed coffee, the sunrise, raindrops in the sunshine, a hot bath, a soft blanket. Listen to your children giggle. Play, be silly. The more you stretch out a little the stronger you will become.
Everyone wants to help here. Sometimes its hard to hear, and sometimes you need to take it with a grain of salt. Learn your own boundaries, make your own decisions, and do not under any circumstances spend most of your time here. It is supportive, but it can also be overwhelming.
Hugs.
Me 45, H 46, S 23, M 26, Together 30, Bomb 6-2-08, S 6-19-08; H left 12-29-08. H home 12-09, Still MLC in 2012! Me- I have my big girl panties on. Bring it.
Tears are good sometimes, and I've found I have an almost unlimited supply. Of course, I find happy things to cry about, too. There isn't a one size fits all formula. All the 2x4's in the world can't mold you into the next successful marriage.
People try to help and I always do better with gentle nudges than outright whacks. It makes me do a turtle when someone is a little too hard on me.
You have to read, digest, understand, but then make your own choices and decisions. You don't know your way just yet, but I promise in time you will.
And, you have all of us nuts along for the ride. I'm a candied almond, how bout you? : )
Me 45, H 46, S 23, M 26, Together 30, Bomb 6-2-08, S 6-19-08; H left 12-29-08. H home 12-09, Still MLC in 2012! Me- I have my big girl panties on. Bring it.
You don't have to have ALL these things figured out and even if you did, some will change as circumstances do. You'll need overall guidelines to follow, to GUIDE you and they'll have to be flexible. There's just no way to anticipate all the questions the kids will ask or what else will come up.
Here are some things that helped me, and some came from my DB coach, or from Marianne Williamson's books (I believe I mentioned "Return to Love," which has the most forgiveness info and it'll help you let go of a lot of this pain/anger. "THe Gift of Change" is another one of hers I found helpful). Other parts are from what I know as a L and the people I've known who have had "good" divorces and bad ones and the ones who ended up still m. BTW, about a third of Divorces filed in CAL never get finalized. Go figure. Some are formally withdrawn but many are just not ever completed as the couples reunite.
Dealing with the anger will help you in all the rest of this AND will model for your children how to respond when the day comes that they face a terrible setback or blow to the heart. It'll help you think more clearly as your thoughts are becoming a bit disordered, if you know what I mean.
You must show your children that your pain is not fatal, for you will HEAL, and that your pain is not eternal, for you will LIVE again. And laugh, and love. Stay as dignfiied and calm throughout this. If you cry and the kids see you, you can say you are sad and that you miss what you once had, but that's when this is all out there and they know all the stuff already.
For now all they know is your h is travelling more than usual, correct? Or do they KNOW he sleeps elsewhere? Why not use the "mommy and daddy time out" or some temporary sounding term until IF and when you have a definite date for the divorce?
If they push for more specifics, and I don't think they will as much as you fear, you can ease off the topic with generalities. Don't say "Ask your dad" about any "Why?" questions. . For one thing, he'll tell them something you are NOT cool with and for another, it'd be far better to tell them together whatever decisions do get made. At least that's according to our children's c. (We didn't have to tell them the big "D" thing thank God but we did have to explain wth H was doing and why he'd be living so far away, etc.) There is a good book called "What About the Kids?" and it discusses what to tell them and how. The beginning bashes divorce and all and will possibly make your h think you are trying to pressure him to stay so try to get to the parts that are more "acting as if it's happening" stage and point out those parts. he may get interested in reading the rest but it's hard to read all of and then be the one who ends the M. (The one who files is not always the one who "ends" the M as you know. Don't forget that).
Figure out what CAN stay the same for the kids even if it's only that you can promise they'll still see their best friend, & even if only on weekends -if you have to take them out of their schools. If you can remain in the same school district, great. Keep whatever you can, the same for them, and aim to do that for a year or two if you can. Doesn't have to be permanent but that way you can "stage" or stagger the number of changes they face.
They tend to act out MORE with the parent that is with them the most. They'll often be on their best behavior with the WAS b/c they fear the WAS won't ever come back if they misbehave. AND they will be angry at you b/c if it isn't your fault, they'll worry it's theirs. So your h has to go overboard in telling them how much he loves being with them AND maybe for now, blame his work for taking him away so much and you guys growing apart, blah blah blah. One thing I recall my kids' T saying was "Do not give more info than they ask for. They usually do not want as many details as you think..." Make the kids ask before you talk on and on.
NEXT- DO NOT HAVE YOUR H SEE A L FIRST...why would that even cross your mind? A L will represent the client who comes in. NOT YOU. YOU need to see a L asap.
Get a reference for a good L, and I don't mean from the relative-- the "free L who hates women" (did I get that right?) I would NOT retain him. [/i]I can think of many reasons but suffice to say your description says it all AND btw, when L's work for "free" for family, it 's hard not to feel unfairly burdened. And that lessens our likelihood of fighting hard, the way you MAY need to if your h flips out. ( And your h is a good candidate for a flip out.) I just know that as a L, I don't think I did my family many big favors when I sort of helped them in court. I DID do a case that was in my specialty but the favorable verdict came with a huge fee (only free for them if I/we had lost) so my firm was okay with the resources used. If your L relative needs to hire a PI or do some expensive forensic analysis (financial forensics) he's not going to want to do that if he won't get paid and it comes out of his pocket. No one would.
May as well borrow the money and pay a stranger to do it right and not feel uncomfortable around the holidays. (ALSO ALSO ALSO if your relative is retained by you, he'll learn things about the M that you may not want him to know in the event of a reconciliation...) ALSO, your h's future income may require a very knowledgable sort of L b/c someday he may earn much more and you'll need to argue that you deserve part of that as you helped lay the foundation for his success AND bore and raised his children. If you were not around, how would he "follow his dream"? He wouldn't.
So get a reference from someone you know who was happy with their D Lawyer and seems financially solvent or if need be, as a last resort, from your relative.But Since you said he's a misogynist, why involve him at all?
Also, by all means, do NOT have your h meet with a L for both of you OR before you...and think you're saving money. You won't. May as well play Russian Roulette with your kids' and your own future. Nor do you need to inform your h that you are seeing a L. Just see one yourself, get an opinion and info and see what they tell you to do. This does NOT involve your h anymore. It is NOT a "joint decision" anymore than his choice to live elsewhere at night.
Access to the house...options include the same access you have to wherever he's living now...which is NONE right? Or a key in the event of an emergency (MAYBE) but require a phone call from him in advance if he expects ever to "drop by" unannounced. Remember some mystery...and you won't want him crashing your routines as it is unfair to YOU AND THE KIDS to have him restructure everyone's evening on his whims...or needy lonely nights HE CREATED.... If he does that, and does not call first and breaks your rule, don't let him in and if that means changing the locks b/c he broke the rules, do so. I'd First use a chain on the door so you feel some control and don't give him keys to all the doors...one at most is plenty.
Conversations...what is there to talk about other than parenting? Do NOT bring up M discussions or D talk until you and the L are ready to file and you won't be without some info first. So what's left? The kids, his work, your new job which you can make sound super interesing and in fact discuss what YOU are doing and joining and attending and exaggerate if you need to but GAL or fake one while you are working on it but have something to tell him. Otherwise, what are you bringing to the table but a set of ears? Oh, and your needs...and grievances....see? You need to be a busy woman accomplishing things with THAT to talk about but if he's all about himself and not really asking much, you have to GO...and go.... One topic NOT likely to come up but possible is God and religion. Don't say "God Hates divorce" b/c usually that makes it you telling him that God said he's wrong.Tons of people here use that line as they BEGIN going to church hoping God will step in and straighten out their WAS's but the WAS usually thinks the LBSer is a guilty hypocrite to bring up God or religion and focus only on the WAS...so it backfires plus then, you're using religion as a way to condemn rather than welcome. But the message from YOU really needs to be about how loving and forgiving God is and about the LOVE and Strength you get from your faith. See how that makes YOU so much more approachable? (Oh, and happier too...) MAKE SENSE?
Money and legal matters and other topics that feel gross--Let the L's do ALL the business negotiations....don't whine about how that costs more b/c 1) it does not save you money to haggle yourselves. You will take much much longer to get it done, with PAIN GALORE, and not know what will matter to a judge and what won't. PLUS it saves you from some seriously ugly talks, which lead to hostility and damage big time. You're trying to build some rapport so avoid the "here comes the legal crap you are facing" discussions. They usually deteriorate and your anger will flare up and you'll probably get punitive. Or look that way at least. And then he'll get scared and his guilt will quickly morph into anger at you and justifications, and blah blah blah. And your h is spending more on dinners than you spend in a day on 3 people...seriously, I think that's literally true and I don't feel sorry for him. He has never been good with money according to you. In a way, getting a check thru the court will be far more reliable and less pathetic than you having to ask him each month for a set amount so you can plan a friggin' budget like adults do everywhere. Back to the L's and keeping the gross stuff on their plates...he's been acting the pauper TO YOU but the poser to others. Feels he has to. So don't expect truth from him on this. He may not even know. The ONE reason you may NOT want him to pay the bills is bc at least you can prove what YOUR family expenses are...
AND if there's a chance for a recon, it'll be by separating the ugly business from the nice pleasant co-parenting you DO need to do. I'd focus the discussions as much as possible on the kids and how to raise them so they know you both love the heck out of them and that your R problems have nothing to do with them.
If your h asks you a Legal question tell him to ask your L. You don't know the answer. If he says something like "can I have the kids Tuesday instead of Wednesday,?" THEN yes handle stuff like that yourself. You don't need the L's for kids routines questions or choices about birtday gifts and yada yada, just tell the L of and when you're talking custody or taking them out of the country.
(BTW, he cannot take them out of the country without your permission until they are 18 so don't worry about all those trips to Paris you fear he'll take them on--another example of negative thinking that isn't even reality based...these fears need to be handled and better managed NOW. I honestly think some meds would not be a bad idea for you. I'm not a doc (though I play one on TV--had to say it)
Look, We've all been there and let our minds spiral into a SVON and you gotta stop that. Can you see someone and ask for something to take the edge off your anxiety as it seems to be affecting your decision making and your sleep?)
Don't let him corner you financially. Hence the comment, "I don't know -I'll have to ask my L that...." Or "My L made me promise not to decide anything about money or moving or 'X' or 'Y' without first calling her and I gave her my word..." and stick to that. Don't let him guilt you OR tempt you and then blame you. He told your sister he's "tried"....as far as the M is concerned?? When? Tuesday?
(Which begs the questions as to why he came over all those times and hung around, but you know why. And the one sided thing I said to you well,....you know what I'm referring to with the sore neck and rub down, etc??) Yeah, he's "tried" alright...but hey, when he sees the change, expect a negative reaction at first and don't freak out. Nothing is really more negative than leaving you and telling your sister it's over....but anyhow, He'll lash out and grasp at straws and your best bet is to remain calm and act upbeat but sadly resigned to his choice, but the way you'd act as if you were friends who have two great kids and just like you DO have some friends in RL, who've made horrible destructive choices but you still talk to them, even if it feels like you are merely tolerating them....do that for him. Tolerate him, warmly receive him when he's appropriate with you but don't go further. He's a co-parent with you. You are not being punitive by setting and enforcing a healthy boundary.
If he brings up NON R topics, why not listen For awhile? Be polite. If it is of interest to you or involves mutual friends, be a good friend and listener and if you can be funny, do it. But If the topic makes you uncomfortable or is blatantly insensitive or ike the "Islands" he stayed on and how many girl groupies were there and blah blah blah, tell him you have "things to do and places to go" and that is was nice "chatting" with him OR something like "Sounds like you are having fun but I don't have time to listen to this b/c at this point in my life. I"m a mother of two with a new business picking up steam right now so I need to focus on those things and networking and not so much the 20 something partying scene right now...But hey, Good seeing you and talk to you later!" THEN LEAVE.
IF he discusses other women or says something aimed at hurting you, just end it. Don't even listen to the explainations and ruminations. Do not engage. He'll figure it out eventually.
He does ruminate and I would not be there for those endless sessions of his and his trial balloon launches b/c you'll get so confused. Plus I really do suspect drug use and lots of drinking no matter how healthy you think he is. Lots of times that vitamin and exercise extreme is a compensatory activity anyhow. So avoid those useless hurtful "talks" if you can.
So those talks where he sighs and wonders and mutters out loud but says "oh never mind" THEN PLEASE---NEVER MIND....do not ask more. Don't ask anything. If he's a grown man, he can speak up. If he's not, then what does he have to say that is worth hearing? You do Way too much digging around for specifics when he doesn't know any. He doesn't know what he's doing but he doesn't feel so great about himself and the easiest "fix" he can see is replacing you or erasing you from the picture of his greatness. So let him "erase" you from his Photo of life and see how much happier he is in a few months. It may take 6 months of being really away without being able to rely on you, for him to miss you. But if you answer the phone every time he calls at 4 am, you'll regret it. If he wants to come home, it won't be a good idea if it's based on a one time call in the middle of the night. You want him awake, sober, and with a thought out plan for making the M work. I do not think this is likely but I do think it is possible he'll ask for another chance down the road. DOWN THE ROAD. Not soon. If he asks soon, it will be TOO soon b/c he has such big things to work on I'd be afraid to have him in the home and count on anything but waiting for the other shoe to drop. So don't believe you "blew it' if you say the wrong sentence of look at him with the wrong expression or any of that nonsense. Crazy stuff has been going on awhile here...
PLAN--1) Back off big time. See a L. Figure out the finances WITH the L's help. Get a plan. If you trust your L, then listen to them and do what they say. If you don't, hire another one.
2) reassure your kids of how you'll always be there for them. You will be. Reassure them their dad loves them. Though he may be gone more soon but hey he was planning on needing to travel anyhow, so the M situation is not really the cause of his travel. And in truth, can you say that he'd kill or die for them? that's useful to know if it's true and when they're old enough you can tell them stuff like that. It's general and does not explain it all, but it comforts them.
Discuss with the kids when they WILL for sure see him next, and when after that. Let him do that and you reinforce it so you feel like a team. (That seems to be where they'll want the most details). Like "two Saturdays every month and 2 nights a week you guys get daddy all to yourself" and "you get to see a movie every month" or "eat at McDonald's after every game" or blah blah blah. Whatever little things they like, keep up and remind them of. Do not fight in front of them. Do not critisize him in front of them. If he goes off on you, write it down. Parental alienation is frowned upon in this state.
That's probably enough for now. Good luck, and it ain't over til it's over.
j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
The good news is that I've done so much of this so I feel a little better.
The L. I already saw him months ago and have spoken to him recently. He is tough and one the MOST successful L in the city. Given the finances and given the massive amounts of money I have seen people lose, I am reluctant to forgo his help. He is crass but he is also usually right. He told me when we had lunch that he sees that people just replace one body for another, that a woman at home with two kids needs stability etc. He wanted H to come in with Income and Expense Declaration so he could lay it out for him. I understand your points and I really need to think about it because I feel blessed in a way to have this resource and I see a path without court and fighting etc. But, I may learn that I am wrong. Not sure. I think this L could get us organized fairly quickly. H knows who he is and I don't think H has the balls to mess with this. L is tough and doesn't like women's ambivalence and emotionalism but he does represent them well. I think he could give us a very clear picture of where we will end up if we go through D. Again, I could take this as it comes. Do you think I should file for legal sep or D? Obviously that is something ONLY I can determine but I just want to be clear on what you are suggesting. Also, L is a relative I rarely see but have a deep history with (long story). I have no problem with him knowing everything (I already told him so much) and he did refer to future earnings because I have been with H while he has made all of these connections. He knows his s*** way more than any lawyer that H or I could afford. I also do not see L as willing to do any more than he genuinely wants to, he is not the martyr type and I think his MO would be to streamline. It is not that complicated a situation if we stick to the formula (I know, I know....we'll see).
The kids were told by H months ago that he will not be sleeping here anymore. He spoke a lot more about how we were not getting along than I would have liked (they actually didn't see us that way). But, that was one of the worst days of my life. Those tears streaming down their faces. But now, they are confused, we still feel like a family.
I tried meds once and I swear I nearly killed myself. It really scared me. I need to get through this without it.
I don't feel as angry as I do sad but I will read the books anyway.
The book on dealing with the kids WILL be seen as manipulative but too bad. My behavior will say I have accepted it is over and that it is truly about the kids.
As for God, he doesn't have God or religion right now. I barely have a connection to God. I feel there is a source energy and an unknowable logic to life and the universe but no entity that has a "plan" or some emotional investment in how my life goes. H barely believes in a higher power, if at all...for now.
When H said he "tried," he was referring to the R before he left, not since. I was like his little secret. This shows me that the past 4 months just haven't counted to him and I felt that. Maybe and actually I'm very sure that they impressed him emotionally but not enough to change his story. I can live with this and don't regret making the changes I have, or the sex, or the family time. If he can't see what we are capable of, at least I have my pov and my kids have seen that too. That he is making his choice.
Also, regarding the house, H has an office here that he was using more before he left town. Sometimes he would last minute say that he needed to get something from there or in the house (all of his stuff is here). If he comes to his office to work, the line gets blurred, kids want his attention etc. I could be clear that he can come when they are not here but that is a missed opportunity for them to see him. Puts me in a sticky sitch but I will just have to come up with clear boundaries (there is a side gate, maybe with forewarning he can come in that way). MIL told me last night that H is not going to be able to stay where he has been so far so something is brewing...I mean, he's dealing with his game plan.
As for our conversations, MOST of the time I have been pretty close to your suggestions. The changes will be in my availability and in his access to the house. Otherwise, I have been friendly and overall upbeat.
There is one thing that keeps bugging me. His references to the things I said that hurt him. I know he feels I was verbally abusive. I know that some of it is exaggerated (based on what friend told me) but I feel and have felt since the beginning that there is something specific that he is stuck on and I would really like to know and apologize for it. I am just being honest with you. I want to be done and this gnaws at me. Do you think it would be ok to address just that specific issue? It has come up so many times and I just never was able to say "Please tell me more about that. What specifically did I say that hurt you so deeply?" If not, I don't need a 2x4, just your thoughts on this.
I have to deal with kiddos right now. They're sick.
I will reread again later.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
You don't have to have ALL these things figured out and even if you did, some will change as circumstances do. You'll need overall guidelines to follow, to GUIDE you and they'll have to be flexible. There's just no way to anticipate all the questions the kids will ask or what else will come up.
Here are some things that helped me, and some came from my DB coach, or from Marianne Williamson's books (I believe I mentioned "Return to Love," which has the most forgiveness info and it'll help you let go of a lot of this pain/anger. "THe Gift of Change" is another one of hers I found helpful). Other parts are from what I know as a L and the people I've known who have had "good" divorces and bad ones and the ones who ended up still m. BTW, about a third of Divorces filed in CAL never get finalized. Go figure. Some are formally withdrawn but many are just not ever completed as the couples reunite.
Dealing with the anger will help you in all the rest of this AND will model for your children how to respond when the day comes that they face a terrible setback or blow to the heart. It'll help you think more clearly as your thoughts are becoming a bit disordered, if you know what I mean.
You must show your children that your pain is not fatal, for you will HEAL, and that your pain is not eternal, for you will LIVE again. And laugh, and love. Stay as dignfiied and calm throughout this. If you cry and the kids see you, you can say you are sad and that you miss what you once had, but that's when this is all out there and they know all the stuff already.
For now all they know is your h is travelling more than usual, correct? Or do they KNOW he sleeps elsewhere? Why not use the "mommy and daddy time out" or some temporary sounding term until IF and when you have a definite date for the divorce?
If they push for more specifics, and I don't think they will as much as you fear, you can ease off the topic with generalities. Don't say "Ask your dad" about any "Why?" questions. . For one thing, he'll tell them something you are NOT cool with and for another, it'd be far better to tell them together whatever decisions do get made. At least that's according to our children's c. (We didn't have to tell them the big "D" thing thank God but we did have to explain wth H was doing and why he'd be living so far away, etc.) There is a good book called "What About the Kids?" and it discusses what to tell them and how. The beginning bashes divorce and all and will possibly make your h think you are trying to pressure him to stay so try to get to the parts that are more "acting as if it's happening" stage and point out those parts. he may get interested in reading the rest but it's hard to read all of and then be the one who ends the M. (The one who files is not always the one who "ends" the M as you know. Don't forget that).
Figure out what CAN stay the same for the kids even if it's only that you can promise they'll still see their best friend, & even if only on weekends -if you have to take them out of their schools. If you can remain in the same school district, great. Keep whatever you can, the same for them, and aim to do that for a year or two if you can. Doesn't have to be permanent but that way you can "stage" or stagger the number of changes they face.
They tend to act out MORE with the parent that is with them the most. They'll often be on their best behavior with the WAS b/c they fear the WAS won't ever come back if they misbehave. AND they will be angry at you b/c if it isn't your fault, they'll worry it's theirs. So your h has to go overboard in telling them how much he loves being with them AND maybe for now, blame his work for taking him away so much and you guys growing apart, blah blah blah. One thing I recall my kids' T saying was "Do not give more info than they ask for. They usually do not want as many details as you think..." Make the kids ask before you talk on and on.
NEXT- DO NOT HAVE YOUR H SEE A L FIRST...why would that even cross your mind? A L will represent the client who comes in. NOT YOU. YOU need to see a L asap.
Get a reference for a good L, and I don't mean from the relative-- the "free L who hates women" (did I get that right?) I would NOT retain him. [/i]I can think of many reasons but suffice to say your description says it all AND btw, when L's work for "free" for family, it 's hard not to feel unfairly burdened. And that lessens our likelihood of fighting hard, the way you MAY need to if your h flips out. ( And your h is a good candidate for a flip out.) I just know that as a L, I don't think I did my family many big favors when I sort of helped them in court. I DID do a case that was in my specialty but the favorable verdict came with a huge fee (only free for them if I/we had lost) so my firm was okay with the resources used. If your L relative needs to hire a PI or do some expensive forensic analysis (financial forensics) he's not going to want to do that if he won't get paid and it comes out of his pocket. No one would.
May as well borrow the money and pay a stranger to do it right and not feel uncomfortable around the holidays. (ALSO ALSO ALSO if your relative is retained by you, he'll learn things about the M that you may not want him to know in the event of a reconciliation...) ALSO, your h's future income may require a very knowledgable sort of L b/c someday he may earn much more and you'll need to argue that you deserve part of that as you helped lay the foundation for his success AND bore and raised his children. If you were not around, how would he "follow his dream"? He wouldn't.
So get a reference from someone you know who was happy with their D Lawyer and seems financially solvent or if need be, as a last resort, from your relative.But Since you said he's a misogynist, why involve him at all?
Also, by all means, do NOT have your h meet with a L for both of you OR before you...and think you're saving money. You won't. May as well play Russian Roulette with your kids' and your own future. Nor do you need to inform your h that you are seeing a L. Just see one yourself, get an opinion and info and see what they tell you to do. This does NOT involve your h anymore. It is NOT a "joint decision" anymore than his choice to live elsewhere at night.
Access to the house...options include the same access you have to wherever he's living now...which is NONE right? Or a key in the event of an emergency (MAYBE) but require a phone call from him in advance if he expects ever to "drop by" unannounced. Remember some mystery...and you won't want him crashing your routines as it is unfair to YOU AND THE KIDS to have him restructure everyone's evening on his whims...or needy lonely nights HE CREATED.... If he does that, and does not call first and breaks your rule, don't let him in and if that means changing the locks b/c he broke the rules, do so. I'd First use a chain on the door so you feel some control and don't give him keys to all the doors...one at most is plenty.
Conversations...what is there to talk about other than parenting? Do NOT bring up M discussions or D talk until you and the L are ready to file and you won't be without some info first. So what's left? The kids, his work, your new job which you can make sound super interesing and in fact discuss what YOU are doing and joining and attending and exaggerate if you need to but GAL or fake one while you are working on it but have something to tell him. Otherwise, what are you bringing to the table but a set of ears? Oh, and your needs...and grievances....see? You need to be a busy woman accomplishing things with THAT to talk about but if he's all about himself and not really asking much, you have to GO...and go.... One topic NOT likely to come up but possible is God and religion. Don't say "God Hates divorce" b/c usually that makes it you telling him that God said he's wrong.Tons of people here use that line as they BEGIN going to church hoping God will step in and straighten out their WAS's but the WAS usually thinks the LBSer is a guilty hypocrite to bring up God or religion and focus only on the WAS...so it backfires plus then, you're using religion as a way to condemn rather than welcome. But the message from YOU really needs to be about how loving and forgiving God is and about the LOVE and Strength you get from your faith. See how that makes YOU so much more approachable? (Oh, and happier too...) MAKE SENSE?
Money and legal matters and other topics that feel gross--Let the L's do ALL the business negotiations....don't whine about how that costs more b/c 1) it does not save you money to haggle yourselves. You will take much much longer to get it done, with PAIN GALORE, and not know what will matter to a judge and what won't. PLUS it saves you from some seriously ugly talks, which lead to hostility and damage big time. You're trying to build some rapport so avoid the "here comes the legal crap you are facing" discussions. They usually deteriorate and your anger will flare up and you'll probably get punitive. Or look that way at least. And then he'll get scared and his guilt will quickly morph into anger at you and justifications, and blah blah blah. And your h is spending more on dinners than you spend in a day on 3 people...seriously, I think that's literally true and I don't feel sorry for him. He has never been good with money according to you. In a way, getting a check thru the court will be far more reliable and less pathetic than you having to ask him each month for a set amount so you can plan a friggin' budget like adults do everywhere. Back to the L's and keeping the gross stuff on their plates...he's been acting the pauper TO YOU but the poser to others. Feels he has to. So don't expect truth from him on this. He may not even know. The ONE reason you may NOT want him to pay the bills is bc at least you can prove what YOUR family expenses are...
AND if there's a chance for a recon, it'll be by separating the ugly business from the nice pleasant co-parenting you DO need to do. I'd focus the discussions as much as possible on the kids and how to raise them so they know you both love the heck out of them and that your R problems have nothing to do with them.
If your h asks you a Legal question tell him to ask your L. You don't know the answer. If he says something like "can I have the kids Tuesday instead of Wednesday,?" THEN yes handle stuff like that yourself. You don't need the L's for kids routines questions or choices about birtday gifts and yada yada, just tell the L of and when you're talking custody or taking them out of the country.
(BTW, he cannot take them out of the country without your permission until they are 18 so don't worry about all those trips to Paris you fear he'll take them on--another example of negative thinking that isn't even reality based...these fears need to be handled and better managed NOW. I honestly think some meds would not be a bad idea for you. I'm not a doc (though I play one on TV--had to say it)
Look, We've all been there and let our minds spiral into a SVON and you gotta stop that. Can you see someone and ask for something to take the edge off your anxiety as it seems to be affecting your decision making and your sleep?)
Don't let him corner you financially. Hence the comment, "I don't know -I'll have to ask my L that...." Or "My L made me promise not to decide anything about money or moving or 'X' or 'Y' without first calling her and I gave her my word..." and stick to that. Don't let him guilt you OR tempt you and then blame you. He told your sister he's "tried"....as far as the M is concerned?? When? Tuesday?
(Which begs the questions as to why he came over all those times and hung around, but you know why. And the one sided thing I said to you well,....you know what I'm referring to with the sore neck and rub down, etc??) Yeah, he's "tried" alright...but hey, when he sees the change, expect a negative reaction at first and don't freak out. Nothing is really more negative than leaving you and telling your sister it's over....but anyhow, He'll lash out and grasp at straws and your best bet is to remain calm and act upbeat but sadly resigned to his choice, but the way you'd act as if you were friends who have two great kids and just like you DO have some friends in RL, who've made horrible destructive choices but you still talk to them, even if it feels like you are merely tolerating them....do that for him. Tolerate him, warmly receive him when he's appropriate with you but don't go further. He's a co-parent with you. You are not being punitive by setting and enforcing a healthy boundary.
If he brings up NON R topics, why not listen For awhile? Be polite. If it is of interest to you or involves mutual friends, be a good friend and listener and if you can be funny, do it. But If the topic makes you uncomfortable or is blatantly insensitive or ike the "Islands" he stayed on and how many girl groupies were there and blah blah blah, tell him you have "things to do and places to go" and that is was nice "chatting" with him OR something like "Sounds like you are having fun but I don't have time to listen to this b/c at this point in my life. I"m a mother of two with a new business picking up steam right now so I need to focus on those things and networking and not so much the 20 something partying scene right now...But hey, Good seeing you and talk to you later!" THEN LEAVE.
IF he discusses other women or says something aimed at hurting you, just end it. Don't even listen to the explainations and ruminations. Do not engage. He'll figure it out eventually.
He does ruminate and I would not be there for those endless sessions of his and his trial balloon launches b/c you'll get so confused. Plus I really do suspect drug use and lots of drinking no matter how healthy you think he is. Lots of times that vitamin and exercise extreme is a compensatory activity anyhow. So avoid those useless hurtful "talks" if you can.
So those talks where he sighs and wonders and mutters out loud but says "oh never mind" THEN PLEASE---NEVER MIND....do not ask more. Don't ask anything. If he's a grown man, he can speak up. If he's not, then what does he have to say that is worth hearing? You do Way too much digging around for specifics when he doesn't know any. He doesn't know what he's doing but he doesn't feel so great about himself and the easiest "fix" he can see is replacing you or erasing you from the picture of his greatness. So let him "erase" you from his Photo of life and see how much happier he is in a few months. It may take 6 months of being really away without being able to rely on you, for him to miss you. But if you answer the phone every time he calls at 4 am, you'll regret it. If he wants to come home, it won't be a good idea if it's based on a one time call in the middle of the night. You want him awake, sober, and with a thought out plan for making the M work. I do not think this is likely but I do think it is possible he'll ask for another chance down the road. DOWN THE ROAD. Not soon. If he asks soon, it will be TOO soon b/c he has such big things to work on I'd be afraid to have him in the home and count on anything but waiting for the other shoe to drop. So don't believe you "blew it' if you say the wrong sentence of look at him with the wrong expression or any of that nonsense. Crazy stuff has been going on awhile here...
PLAN--1) Back off big time. See a L. Figure out the finances WITH the L's help. Get a plan. If you trust your L, then listen to them and do what they say. If you don't, hire another one.
2) reassure your kids of how you'll always be there for them. You will be. Reassure them their dad loves them. Though he may be gone more soon but hey he was planning on needing to travel anyhow, so the M situation is not really the cause of his travel. And in truth, can you say that he'd kill or die for them? that's useful to know if it's true and when they're old enough you can tell them stuff like that. It's general and does not explain it all, but it comforts them.
Discuss with the kids when they WILL for sure see him next, and when after that. Let him do that and you reinforce it so you feel like a team. (That seems to be where they'll want the most details). Like "two Saturdays every month and 2 nights a week you guys get daddy all to yourself" and "you get to see a movie every month" or "eat at McDonald's after every game" or blah blah blah. Whatever little things they like, keep up and remind them of. Do not fight in front of them. Do not critisize him in front of them. If he goes off on you, write it down. Parental alienation is frowned upon in this state.
That's probably enough for now. Good luck, and it ain't over til it's over.
Wow, I think that 25 is the most honest and straightforward...she puts in so much effort and detail in her advice, it is amazing. AK we need to listen to her. I totally feel you right now and I especially feel you on the rejection front. It is a hard pill to swallow. It is easy to think that he should want the entire package and that if he loves the kids so much, why would he NOT love the woman who gave them to him. Worst of all is the way he is not respecting the amount of time you spend with the kids. This too is my feeling about my sitch. He gets to come and go and just leave you to pick u the pieces for them...and yourself. I keep telling myself that is where HIS issues come into play. He obvioulsy loves them and has guilt based on not being the father he should be. But the fact that he can't pick HIMSELF up by the bootstraps and BE that father only reinforces that the issues are HIS not YOURS. This should diminsh the feeling of rejection, it does for me. It should also reinforce the need for you to GO DARK...he is not going to realize how much he loves you and the "package" of his family until he thinks you are done, out of the picture. I too am going to follow this advice. To the best of my ability. I didn't see H for 4 days and I was feeling SO strong. Then I see him yesterday and I fell apart. It made me realize that going dark is the only way. Going dark forces you to GAL, so start there. I think about GAL and I stress about being "able" to. It is hard...but when I don't see H it is easier, as I have no choice. When I know I am not going to see him I can exercise, clean, go out. When I know I am going to see him, my mind spins and I freak out. I feel funny giving you advice, as you have already helped me alot and I see you as stronger than me. But, I have to say...YOU seem to be the smarter one in your M. YOU are smart...very smart. YOU are strong and the glue for your kiddos. YOU are the one who is gaining insight on what will work for you and the kids while he is out avoiding reality. As for the e-mail from your sis and his reply...remember that he feels attacked by that. Tell her to go dark on him too. No more e-mails it is not helping. His response has you spinning and is only making you feel worse. Remember not to believe what comes out of his mouth...especially when he feels he has to defend himself. I hope this helps...you always end your posts with ONWARD. And in a positive note. Start living it. (and I am so going to try to follow my own advice as well!!!!!) Thinking of you.... N P.S. Where in CA do you live...you don't have to tell me if you don't want...just curious if we are close
You are so awesome! I read your thread and I think you are kicking a**. Seriously, I will post my thoughts on there.
I am strong and I have needed to sort of be a different wife for these months just to know that I am not who he says I am. Unlike your sitch, my H blames me for EVERYTHING, tells everyone so much cr*p about me and only occasionally takes responsibility. I have to fight to see our M with some objectivity and not buy into his version but own my part...painful.
I totally get it about the email. What I get from it is that (as many have said before), if this M has any chance, it will be a much longer process than I want. I hoped that the shifts in our dynamic would impact him enough to rethink but since he is still at "I'm sorry it didn't work out." And "I tried." I see that I have to let go and maybe I'll be here, maybe I wont. My hang up is that once the kids go through the trauma of a full separation and have processed us as no longer a unit, well, it is hard for me to imagine letting him back in. But, that is way off, if ever. It feels VERY final to me. But, who knows?
As I mentioned, I did very well with GAL and keeping him at bay. But, I have to be so diligent and it hurts since he felt so rejected in M, to have to reject him over and over. I think 25 has presented a nice balance. I have to get a grip that maintaining boundaries doesn't mean being a bitch. You are doing a phenomenal job with this!!!! Seriously. My guy and sitch is different and more challenging in certain ways but your H sort of wanting the safety and you trying to interpret his motives...I relate to that.
Honestly, the way I view marriage and divorce jacks me up. There are no values that supersede loyalty and love to me...obviously, that is not where H is at and I have to face it...
I have been labeled a control freak by my family so I gently tell them what I think regarding their contact with H but I really have to let go. They have a right to their feelings and to handle themselves. I really am tired of micromanaging everyone. Also, they spin because I am spinning. If I was clear and decisive, I think they would follow my lead. Obviously, I come off as someone who needs protection and defending and I need to recognize that is what I am conveying.
I think your advice is wonderful and who we are in observing other people's situations can diverge greatly from who we are in our own (message not messenger). In this case, you are clearly a bright, strong woman and I appreciate the camaraderie and advice...
Oh, living in close proximity to Lalaland IFYKWIM.
But now, they are confused, we still feel like a family. 