Confessions from a former cheater...

[DanceQueen]

Stuck...I'm possibly going to be away from the boards for a few days, so I just wanted to comment real quick...with hopefully more to come later.

My sitch with my ex-h was apparently different than most people, in that I WANTED him to pursue me, and it was his lack of pursuit of me for our whole marriage that caused me to finally leave. When I did leave, I begged him to pursue me and date me. He claimed he would, but he never did. From what I read around here, this is abnormal and usually the WAS is not wanting to be pursued. I just want to make that clear so you don't confuse the two sitches...what would have worked on me apparently wouldn't work on most WAS's.

And the other difference in my sitch than many others, is that I ALWAYS want to talk. I will talk about R issues, good OR bad, at any time. I ALWAYS want to discuss what went right OR what when wrong. So when I hear a story like yours where one spouse simply refuses to talk, this is one I can barely relate to. Talking is essential to communication, right? So without talking, you are in big trouble IMO.

Now as to your Q's regarding intimacy...I fear that anything you try to do right now to re-establish sex with her will just run her off. I get what you are saying about having nothing to lose and everything to gain. But...it doesn't seem like she is going to see the point in re-establishing intimacy with a man she is barely communicating with. Her husband or not, she is giving you a very large message by refusing to talk to you. Yes of course she is "off" and is confused and we wish we could break through her barriers and convince her that she needs to open up to you again in order for anything to improve...but I still don't see where she has indicated at all that she is wanting anything to improve.

It sounds like the recent R discussions you had were good and were the beginning to possible future discussions...but after over a year of no physical intimacy and no actual communication, how is she expected to be open to it?

You said: "I can't make her fall in love with me. But if I make her aware of the blocks that she's putting up, maybe I can have her lower them enough to get in."

I guess this sort of confuses me. You may not realize it, but you are still basically trying to "trick" her into loving you again or "getting in" somehow.

What reason do you want to get in?

Maybe that is what I don't understand. Its one thing to try and save your marriage. Its totally something else to try and trick someone into letting their barriers down so you can "get in". Please don't be offended by this commment, I'm just doing some reflective listening to you and sending back to you your words from a different perspective so you can maybe see how she thinks you are coming across. No matter what you do, you will be seen as manipulative.

You did not address what I actually advised you in my first response, ie: asking her for a separation again and to begin moving on.

I am wondering, will you ONLY do this if she forces you to? Because if that is the case, then you are still not willing to take back control of the ship. This is not a challenge to you to ask for a separation, its just a challenge to you to challenge your OWN thinking about who has the control here. She obviously does, but do you see how that is a turn off to her?

DQ

[MrBond]

"Talking is essential to communication, right? So without talking, you are in big trouble IMO."

I totally agree. The problem is that my W has never been much of a talker. I've had to do a fair share of mind reading over the 17 years of our R. She was just never taught how as her mom never opens up to her own emotions. Her sister even told me that their family really don't process and communicate emotions very well. So that part I'm used to and trying to get her to see the benefits of talking.

In terms of the physical intimacy, my W was never the touchy feely type and hasn't initiated sex in at least two years. I don't know if it was a hormonal change from her last pregnancy, but she just wasn't the type to get physical. She likes sex, but doesn't like to admit it. It's weird.

She also seems to still listen to what I tell her. Like she wanted a boob job very badly and I had told her I was supportive of it, but to be aware of the risks. She then changed her mind.

"I guess this sort of confuses me. You may not realize it, but you are still basically trying to "trick" her into loving you again or "getting in" somehow.
What reason do you want to get in?"

It's not really trying to "trick" her into loving me. It's looking for the right way to get through to her. For example, some people write love letters, some like to talk, etc. With each positive tipping point that seems to attract her back to the R, I try to see what reaches her. And I want to get "in" to go back to being in a M.

I do understand the idea of separating again, however it took all of my DB efforts to get back to this point where we are actually together and friendly. Originally I would say that she did it for the kids, but there's that something else there that tells me its not. I think her A shook her personal beliefs and home could very well represent some kind of stability.

As far as the A, I can never really be sure that it's over, but can go back into trusting her. She did return all of his things after I kicked her out and has had no real contact with him outside of work which is in a busy clinic.

My next step is to see if she'll go out to lunch with me alone. Then after that a movie together the following week. And then proceed to dinner the week after. If she's receptive to all that, I think things would work out but they have to be at her pace. It's like she's a stray dog that's wandered into my yard. I have to show that it's safe, secure and not make any sudden movements or she'll bolt.

I am getting the control back in our R. She does listen to me and is no longer confrontational and I also have no fear in our R any more. I do know how lack of control is a turn off.

I guess I'm looking for unique ideas as to what could "turn her on". Just suggestions that worked for you.

[SmileysPerson]

DanceQueen -- this has been very illuminating. I'm curious about this:

I dated lots of guys during my separation, but I really longed for my ex-h to pursue me like that. I kept giving him chances and telling him I was slipping away.

During our most recent convo, where WAW -- who is in a distance EA at the moment with limited opportunities to see OM -- basically said that whatever "else" happens it has to start with friendship, I mentioned setting boundaries.

She said something to the effect of "I understand if you're not in an emotional place to handle friendship right now, so you'll have to set the boundaries."

To which I replied, "Perhaps it would be better if we mutually negotiated the boundaries. Because I don't think mine would be the same as yours."

WAW asked for clarification, which I was somewhat reluctant to give, and so said, "I'll put it this way -- there've been at least 3 occasions in the past couple weeks when it took all the will-power I could muster not to step forward and kiss you."

I expected a kind of "eeewww, I don't think of you that way," but what I got instead was..."Well, there are all kinds of relationships aren't there?"

Um? Is this some kind of suggestion that romantic pursuit would not be unwelcome?

[MrBond]

You should have asked her what she meant by that plain and simple.

[MrNiceGuy]

Yeah, that sounded like either an opening, or wishful thinking.

Based on what I've heard from many other situations, however, she could go cold at any time again - so don't let it keep you from being patient until the next warm response.

[DanceQueen]

Stuck, you said: "I guess I'm looking for unique ideas as to what could "turn her on". Just suggestions that worked for you."

I'm going to be blunt once again. I think you are still so far away from the point of trying to physically turn her back on to sex that you should just put this out of your mind for now.

Your wife is still in the position of control and doesn't want to be. She wants to be happy. She is currently still convinced that she isn't happy with you.

I don't see any way around this without either you doing something to shake the whole thing up, or both of you agreeing to counseling and agreeing to working on the relationship. Without her agreeing to it, then you are still trying to coerce her. And this applies to the whole relationship.

Now how to get her to WANT to agree to work on it and talk?

I'm trying gently to tell you that you are acting without a backbone. And this will not get her to want to try. It will keep her feeling that she is unhappy but is in control of the situation, a position she doesn't want.

You said: "The problem is that my W has never been much of a talker. I've had to do a fair share of mind reading over the 17 years of our R. She was just never taught how as her mom never opens up to her own emotions."

Ok here is an example of how you are not showing back bone, and then "blaming" the "problem" on your wife. You see, this is an area in your life where you have accepted her stonewalling and helped her make excuses for "why" she is stonewalling. Instead, you should have, from the beginning, set your boundaries in stone and let her know that talking and communicating were core needs to your marriage, and you simply refuse to let her stonewall you. Would that be uncomfortable? Hell yes. But only a few times. After that, she would respect your boundary and would have talked.

We teach people how to treat us. You have taught your wife that its ok to be married to you without communicating with you. You've taught her that if she wants to run away and hide behind non-communication, you will not stand up to her. You will tip-toe around and try to find some back door to communication. She knows this now more than ever.

You said: "As far as the A, I can never really be sure that it's over, but can go back into trusting her. She did return all of his things after I kicked her out and has had no real contact with him outside of work which is in a busy clinic."

OK so this is the toughest part for me to tell you, but if you can never be realy sure that its over, then its not over. Again, you've taught her that you will be disrespected and you will not even demand that she proclaim that its over. She gets defensive and irritated when you try to talk about it, and that shuts you down. So you've taught her that you will not stand in the way of an affair going on nor even ask questions of your own wife that are obviously relevant to your marriage, because you are afraid of her defensiveness.

So stuck...I'm just not sure I can help you. I am really trying, but you are in a position of self-placed weakness within your marriage. And what a woman needs and wants is a strong man. If she is in the wrong, even if she is flailing and screeching at him, she actually wants to be put in her place. (Just as with men - its the same. My man needs to be put in his place occasionally and if I stood there and watched him act disrespectful to me but did not put him in his place, then he would immediately lose respect for me.) We all need to be strong enough to place our own boundaries and enforce them.

Here's my quick overview of what I see in your sitch:

*She has all the control, but doesn't want it. She actually wants a stronger, in-control man who will help her when she's out of control by putting her in her place. This is probably one of the reasons she fell for her boss. He is older and established and this gives her an idea of him being in control. She actually wants that as she knows that when she is in control, things don't go the right way.

*She cannot heal and move on from her A because she still works for him. Busy office or not, she is still likely "in love" with him (fog love, not real love) and waiting for another opportunity to amp up the A. Have you heard of the idea of withdrawal? A parnters have to go through the withdrawal stage in order to get completely over each other. They can't do this if they are in regular contact. And seeing each other at work everyday - even if they don't talk - is regular contact. She is shutting you down every time you try to bring it up because she is still in an A with him, in her heart and mind, if not more.

*You are doing great in many respects and you love her very much. DB has obviously helped you tremendously. But I think that you have missed some key points in your DB learning process...and those points are the ones I'm making above. You are focused on getting the sex back into the picture, but I still don't get that. This is a woman who won't even really talk to you about her true feelings. Typically, a woman cannot feel ready for physical intimacy until she has acheived emotional intimacy ... so it would seem she is still miles away from this with you.

Stuck, I hope you don't feel I am beating up on you. Please recall in my first post on this thread, that I said to people to let me know and ask me questions IF they are ready to hear my cold, hard, truth approach. If you are feeling beat up, then you probably aren't ready to hear my cold, hard approach. But please recognize that I am trying to give you clues that really COULD help you....if you will be open to it. So far, it seems you are not really open to what I am saying, because you are too afraid to lose her. I can understand that and I will pray for your sitch...hang in there.

DQ

[DanceQueen]

Smiley....your situation is kind of all over the map right now, which I do believe is because of your wife's EA. I don't think she has any clue as to what she wants or what she is doing. She is apparently in th midst of an MLC or some kind of manic episode...but in her mind, (as with all MLC'ers), it is all your fault that she is being this way. So your sitch is a difficult one to DB...but every time I read your updates I do see tiny clues here and there that she *might* have some kind of real breakthrough. And by that I mean, a personal breakthrough of her own, where she may become more clear about her own life and what is going on, and stop being so up-and-down-here-and-there. But this is still something that she will have to come to herself.

SP - I can tell you one horrible truth that might apply to your sitch. IF YOU DID kiss her, and if it did then turn into more (ie: sex or close to it), she will likely only be doing it because she is so worked up over her EA guy in her mind that she will enjoy being physical, but she may be fantasizing about him and not be present there with you.

Therefore, I would not recommend that you do pursue her that way at all, even if she seems open to it. From what you are describing of her school girl crush on Peter Pan, then she is too wrapped up in that fantasy to really *be* with *you*.

In my case, and in the quote of mine you posted, I was straight up telling my ex-h to please pursue me and date me. In the 6 months we were separated, we had sex once and it was because I initiated it. I wanted more but I wanted him to step up and try to show me he wanted me. But ... when he searched his heart fully inside and out, he found he really *didn't* want me. Even though I was the one who left, it was actually him who wanted out. And after all we had been through and all I had put him through, I do understand why he didn't want me that way. To him, it would have felt like he was disrespecting himself to *go after* me. So I'm just sharing this with you to show you that this is totally different than your sitch, so you can't assume your wife feels anything like I did.

Your DB coach advice seems so spot on for your sitch, when you post about what he has had to say. So I've been reading along and praying that you do find resolution with her. I doubt I can add any advice to your sitch, other than, be VERY WARY of physical intimacy with her, as she is likely fantasizing about Peter.

DQ

[MrNiceGuy]

Hi DQ,

Currently, W and I are separated. W is impatiently waiting for OM to separate from his brand-new W so they can start their fantasy life dating. I'm not sure if OM's W is aware of the reason (EA). For moral conscience reasons, I was considering notifying the OM's W anonymously, so that she can make her own choices with a bit of awareness (not details) and perhaps (selfishly) it might disrupt the EA, but then someone here made a comment that seemed to fit: "You can't make the relationship end....it has to happen on its own. Especially in a situation were your wife has implied that she felt you are "controlling". Remember she is addicted to the NRE and like any other addiction...it won't stop until she wants it too."

Since my W has mentioned 'controlling', I didn't know how to address that (or discover if it was true), but just started reading "No more Mr. Nice Guy" after hearing about it on this board and finding some close similarities and interesting growth opportunities for me.

I'm wondering if I am not showing enough backbone? After only 6 weeks of this (Stage 1 negative emotion reduction - according to my DB coach), how standoffish or assertive should I be about EA and general discussions with W about S6, finances, etc. W is calm and collected around me, i.e. not throwing EA in my face, but freely talks bad about me to her well-meaning friend (in a similar position I believe).

I would love to have your perspective on this.

+

[DanceQueen]

Brian - A couple of questions:

1. Did your wife straight up tell you she wants out so she can pursue this other married man? Or are you getting this from other sources, while she is telling you that she wants out for some other reason?

2. What kind of "controlling" issues has your wife brought up? Was it ever brought up before her A, or only after it started?

3. How do you know it is an EA not a PA? Only from your wife's word?

These answers will help me give you my opinion! Thanks!

DQ

[MrNiceGuy]

Initially, she said she had grown tired over the years of me 'losing my legs' (emotionally distant, not contributing to the fun of the family, letting her do all the cooking, activity planning, and vacation planning) and wanted to take a vacation as a wife. That 'vacation' started with 1 week, then 2 weeks, then decided she wanted to separate.

During this first 2 weeks, I learned from her friend that she was lusting after a guy from work and was attempting to talk him out of getting married. Apparently, they've had some hiking/dinner dates even while he was getting married. She has booked a vacation (for the destination we were planning on before the bomb, I believe) and I don't know if it is with OM or not. I don't have any evidence of a PA, but she is certainly lusting after him with fantasy eyeballs to the hilt.

She did admit in a conversation we had that she was dating OM, but said not sleeping with him. Her words - no evidence either way. They work at the same company.

'Controlling' was never brought up before the bomb, and in fact the sudden separation shocked most of us (including family and friends which she has mostly disconnected from). She has said that I can be controlling, but didn't give any details.

Her friend told me that W has stated that she doesn't have any romance for me anymore, and that W frequently states how angry she is with me for anything I do. W has not shown any anger toward me except once regarding some stories my S6 told her that were oddly exaggerated.

She told me 2 weeks ago that she wasn't ready to get divorced, since she was still confused and unsure, which is why the separation would be a good thing for both of us. For me to re-establish myself as a man, and for her to figure things out. Since I moved to an apartment, she moved back to the house. In the last three weeks, she has put away (eradicated?)all photos and reminders of me, and I have moved all of my personal belongings and home office out of the house.

BTW - I'm okay with tough love and cold hard truths. I've been following Puppy's threads enough to have some perspective. :-)