DanceQueen, Please help me understand why my x-wife continues to have affairs with married men? She is now temporarily living with me because she got evicted. Its a long story but basically I took her in for my daughter. She is looking for a new place asap. Still she has a married BF she is in love with. He never offered to help her during her eviction process and now is in the hospital. Some blood clot or something. She cant go see him since its family only! 3 weeks ago she became very sick and called me for help. I took her to the ER. Only then I found out about the guy when he called her cell. I asked why didnt he come get you? Why did you call me? She just stares at me and says he couldnt. Wife in the way??? hmmmm I guess she knows I will always be there and am a sucker. Anyway she has always gone for married men except me. I was single 26 and thought I had found a great woman. I never knew her past until it happened to me. It lasted 12 years. At yr 7 she had an affair that I found out about after friends fessed up. I tried to make it work but she did it again and we are divorced. 5 years of trying to keep my family together. Now I have tried to talk to her about this latest affair as a friend. I explained how our daughter will never forgive her if she finds out. She was so hurt by the others and doesn ttrust her mother 100%. My X got very defensive and says she will not find out about this guy. Still he has come over to her old place and hung out. My daughter told me and she thinks he is a "friend". I fear she will put 1 + 1 together someday. NO married man hangs out at a single divorced womans place. So I dont understand WHY my X would take that chance? She lives for our daughter but risks it all so much. Why?? I have finally thought Id gotten past the pain. We were civil but her moving back in has opened a world of agony. I tired to get her to go to her sisters in S.C. but she wouldnt due to our daughter. Also because she says she doesnt want to be far from me either. She said she cant explain why but just doesnt. I was telling her she is worth more then some guys 2nd and that Im not saying it because I want her back. I cant get over the past I said but I do want her to be happy. She said, I know we cant go back in time, and teared up. Its like she wishes she had never done it all. Is she that messed up? Am I just the safety net? DO you still love the guy you cheated on even a little? I was a good husband and am a good looking successful guy too. Still I feel like I am the hunchback of Norte Dam to her. I feel worthless. It sucks!!
sweepsr....Yes honestly, I always loved my ex-h even when I was cheating.
But here is the bottom line: I needed him to get a back bone and not be a chump. I needed him to stand up to me, stand up for himself, and be a MAN. I'm not blaming him for my A's. I blame myself 100%. But I was like a spoiled child. You can't just sit and watch a child throw a tantrum and then expect the child to learn to stop throwing tantrums. They have to be shaken out of their tantrum and shown that this behavior is not acceptable. When children are throwing a tantrum, they don't WANT to be feeling horrible like that. They WANT to be shown how to handle their own emotions and develop some coping skills. Just letting them have their tantrum and get their way teaches them that they are supposed to freak out and lose control. What else could they learn?
Similar with people who love us. We teach them how to treat us. Unfortunately, you have taught your wife that she will always be able to bulldoze right over the top of you and you will not only allow it but rescue her. She has to have respect for you in order to stop her cheating.
Please don't feel worthless. That is part of the problem. You must understand your own worth, or how will SHE ever understand it? You need to find out how to develop good boundaries and self-esteem. IF YOU DO THOSE THINGS, she might find her attraction for you again.
Read lots of books, starting with No More Mr. Nice Guy.
sweepsr....Yes honestly, I always loved my ex-h even when I was cheating.
But here is the bottom line: I needed him to get a back bone and not be a chump. I needed him to stand up to me, stand up for himself, and be a MAN. I'm not blaming him for my A's. I blame myself 100%. But I was like a spoiled child. You can't just sit and watch a child throw a tantrum and then expect the child to learn to stop throwing tantrums. They have to be shaken out of their tantrum and shown that this behavior is not acceptable. When children are throwing a tantrum, they don't WANT to be feeling horrible like that. They WANT to be shown how to handle their own emotions and develop some coping skills. Just letting them have their tantrum and get their way teaches them that they are supposed to freak out and lose control. What else could they learn?
Similar with people who love us. We teach them how to treat us. Unfortunately, you have taught your wife that she will always be able to bulldoze right over the top of you and you will not only allow it but rescue her. She has to have respect for you in order to stop her cheating.
Please don't feel worthless. That is part of the problem. You must understand your own worth, or how will SHE ever understand it? You need to find out how to develop good boundaries and self-esteem. IF YOU DO THOSE THINGS, she might find her attraction for you again.
Read lots of books, starting with No More Mr. Nice Guy.
DQ
That makes a lot of sense and it has been preached to me hundreds of times. I dont know why I dont ever take the advice but I should. I guess I dont understand why someone would take advantage of another person like that. Its so low. I will look for the books. Thanks
SO I have read the No More Mr Nice guy book. It made a lot of sense. I have things to work on for my future relationships.
Still I wish I could understand why my X did the things she did. I think it has to do with her father splitting at age 2 and her mom dying at 11. Its like she wants the bad guy knowing full well hes not staying around and the nice guy that does stay she abuses or punishes for her father leaving. ANyway, we had another long talk the other night.She was hurting and needed to talk about the OM. I guess she ran into her OM and family in the store. She had not seen himn in 2 weeks since he went to the hospital. They had had a couple text msgs that left more questions then answers. He looked at her while standing next to his wife and quickly turned away. She thinks there affair seems to be at the end since he was in the hospital for the last week and surrounded by his wife and kids. We sat and talked about her feelings for him. She cant even say she would want to be with him if he left her. She says its been the loneliest relationship. She told me how it started a month after she moved out in 07. She also admitted to sleeping with another co worker while we had been "reconciled" for the 5 months before she left again. She also made out with her boss too. I didnt blow up or anything. I said ouch that does hurt but it doesnt matter anymore. She said she doesnt know why she is telling me all this stuff. I figure it would add to her toxic shame (book idea) so I tried to keep the talk positive and tell her she does deserve better then that and she should get some counseling. She cried that she keeps destroying everything good in her life. Then she got scared that I would tell her secrets to our daughter. I said no, I cant hurt her like that. Im her dad. The thing is since reading the book I knew when I was starting to manipulate for my own approval or needs so I didnt.(I also shared that I was reading the book.) I told her what I thought was wrong and that I didnt approve of it. I made a hard line about this OM never being within a mile of my D. THat she will not be part of his little fantasy. Then I asked her to stop this behavior because when it does blow up our D will find out and be hurt beyond belief. She will see her mother as an eternal liar and plant a deep emotional issues in herself. Who knows how it will affect her life later on. I really just tried to be a real friend and not expect anything from my X. I cant ever go back because of the images in my head of other men and the lies. Thats what sucks and it makes me cry. If she only knew how much she was loved. Oh well So I told her I love her very much but I have to let her go from my heart. I know she has long ago and probably doesnt care but I needed to say it. So I got up to go to bed and she gave me a hard hug goodnight and went to our D's room to bed. This monday she moves back out to the new apartment and this temporary stay will be over. I have to say as much as it hurts having her around. I will miss her. I did one more dumb thing and gave her 800 bucks for the deposit on the apartment but I am justifying it as helping my daughter instead. If I didnt my X would end up leaving to S.C. to live with her sis and it would scare my daughter. I dont want her to have more toxic things in her life from her messed up parents. So that my story. Still hurting and trying to push it down and be better man.
ANyway, we had another long talk the other night.She was hurting and needed to talk about the OM. I guess she ran into her OM and family in the store. She had not seen himn in 2 weeks since he went to the hospital. They had had a couple text msgs that left more questions then answers. He looked at her while standing next to his wife and quickly turned away. She thinks there affair seems to be at the end since he was in the hospital for the last week and surrounded by his wife and kids. We sat and talked about her feelings for him. She cant even say she would want to be with him if he left her. She says its been the loneliest relationship. She told me how it started a month after she moved out in 07. She also admitted to sleeping with another co worker while we had been "reconciled" for the 5 months before she left again. She also made out with her boss too. I didnt blow up or anything. I said ouch that does hurt but it doesnt matter anymore. She said she doesnt know why she is telling me all this stuff.
Sweep,
I'd love to get DQ's perspective on this, but I can't see how this can POSSIBLY be good for YOU -- to allow her to have these OM talks with you like you're her gay boyfriend or something. Don't you feel disrespected when she does this?
Quote:
Then she got scared that I would tell her secrets to our daughter. I said no, I cant hurt her like that. Im her dad.
I think you should tell your wife that "I will never say anything to intentionally harm our daughter, but I will also no longer lie to cover up your affairs." Your daughter is at a critical age in her sexual and relational development, and she needs to know that at least ONE of her parents isn't lying to her.
She will also damned well use your relationship with her mother as her model for how a man should treat a woman, so handle with care. Yes, you want to be respectful and courteous to her mother, but you don't want to be a doormat.
I think there may be more takaways from the NMMNG book for this relationship than you think -- not just for any subsequent ones.
I've followed your sitch from the beginning and I totally admire your honesty and advice.
So now I have a question.
My W dropped the bomb on me a little over a year ago saying that she had developed feelings for her boss (27 years her senior and married). I begged, pleaded, etc. all the non-DB things and convinced her to go to C. She agreed to an appt. about 2 months after. I was the model H to her during that whole time. During that time, I asked if she had talked to her boss about her feelings and she kept saying no. So, lo and behold, one day I find a note in her car professing her love for her boss and that he is the love of her life, etc.
I asked her once more if she ever talked to him, and that all I wanted was the truth. She again denied it until I showed her the note. She admitted she talked to him and that he told her he had feelings for her. I promptly kicked her out of the house at that point. She begged to come back, so I let her back with the agreement that we were to work on the R. So while we're living together with our 2 kids, she gets angry at me all the time and refuses to talk to me about the R, saying that we can discuss it at C. We finally go to C and he asks her if there is any chance for a reconciliation, she tells him no and there's nothing that can change her mind. So we never get a chance to discuss anything. The door to her was shut and my W is a stubborn woman. Up to that point I still had no idea what was wrong with our R.
So she moves out in June and we share the kids 50/50 between both homes. My youngest has very bad eczema which flared up at the place my W was staying at. In Dec. I tell my W that I am perfectly capable of taking care of our daughters and that I'm worried about their health. So in mid-Dec. she agrees to move back home with them so we can take care of them together.
From then until now, I've DB'd my head off and are actually much closer as friends than we had been for awhile. Unfortunately she still works with the guy she had an EA with, but I do believe her this time when she says there's nothing going on. She comes home early, doesn't sneak around anymore like she did at the height of her EA. She still gets extremely defensive if the EA ever gets brought up (I think out of embarrasment and shame) and has never apologized to me for it since it wasn't physical.
She did tell me that the reason she wanted a D was due to alot of little resentments that built up over time. She's extremely introverted with no outside friends but talks to her mom and sister alot. Her dad walked out on the family when she was 6 and as long as we've been dating/married, she's always had a fear of me cheating on her even though I had never done anything like that at all. She would always ask for re-assurances. Which is why I was surprised at her EA. She's always had this notion that you can only love one person and I think when she became attracted to her boss, she felt she had to make a decision between he or I.
So right now we're great friends and I initiate all physical hugs, kisses on the cheek, etc. When I move towards her, she looks down and turns away. She has said that we are still separated even though we sleep together in the same bed. We haven't been intimate since all this started over a year ago, although she doesn't flinch anymore when I give her a hug. Sometimes if I hug her, I feel like a molester because of the way she acts. She covers her breasts and turns away. Then in the next minute she'll be laughing with me.
So my question is, what should I do to increase the intimacy level? I don't want to scare her off, but then again I feel that if we could ML just once, we'll be back together again and I think she knows that. I had asked her before how many times over the course of the year that she has felt "in the mood". She said 3 times over the whole year.
I don't know if she still has any residual feelings for her boss as she still won't talk to me about personal things. So how do I get the psychological sex switch turned back on after the WAW has turned it off?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Stuck...I will be back and address your questions shortly.
Sweepsr....you said: "She cried that she keeps destroying everything good in her life."
To me this is the most important part of your post. When a person is self-destructive, you cannot do anything about it. You can try to help, but they will turn your help around and hurt themselves and others with it. She has to be left to face her problems on her own.
I know that you are a kind-hearted man and you sincerely want to help her. But because you are not a self-destructive time machine, you simply cannot fathom what lengths she will go to to destruct herself. Being kind is not going to help her, no matter how you wish it would. If a friend found YOU in need and was kind to YOU, then it WOULD help you. But that is because you are not a self-destructive time bomb.
We can't apply certain types of help to certain problems, yet that is what you are doing. You are trying to help her with kindness, yet this will not have any effect. If anything, your kindness toward her when you SHOULD be angry at her, will cause her to further self-destruct.
She knows that she is being unkind, hurtful, and downright cruel. And she is struggling to try to figure herself out and find out why she does these things. In order to TRULY help her, what you need to do is step aside and allow her to feel the consequences of her actions. THIS is the only thing that may cause her to change and try to help herself.
As long as you allow her to place you in the "friend zone" and you listen to her pitiful stories, she cannot be helped by this. She can only feel worse and worse about herself, and have less and less respect for you because you are helping her self-destruct.
You are such a good person, and it is so difficult for a good person to respond in a way that to them will feel cruel. So to you, it would feel as if you are being cruel if you simply told her "sorry hon, I can't listen to your story any longer, you'll have to find someone else to talk to". You would feel like a bad friend to do this. You would feel like you are being cruel or possibly forcing her off a ledge and you would be afraid of what she might do next. BUT...this is only because you are not a mental health professional and therefore you can't imagine all the ways that you are currently enabling and approving of her self-desctructive behavior. You think you are being kind, but in fact, you are helping her keep in a state of non-growth and limbo by enabling her bullcrap.
So be a good man, not a nice man. Do the right thing, not the easy thing. It will not be easy for you to set a boundary upon her and not listen to her anymore...but that IS the right thing. The right thing is rarely the easy thing.
Stuck, I will make a couple of quotes and comments, and then I'll make a general statement to you about your sitch.
You said: "She begged to come back, so I let her back with the agreement that we were to work on the R. So while we're living together with our 2 kids, she gets angry at me all the time and refuses to talk to me about the R, saying that we can discuss it at C."
I know hindsight is 20/20 so you probably already realize that it was a mistake to let her come back with the agreement that you were to work on the R, only to have her refuse to talk about it later? Why did she beg to come back anyway? I'm just curious about that part. She was just afraid to find her own place or....?
You said: "So in mid-Dec. she agrees to move back home with them so we can take care of them together."
So this sounds like she agreed to come home because it would be more convenient to take care of the children together, but she never agreed to work on the R this time, correct?
You said: "Unfortunately she still works with the guy she had an EA with, but I do believe her this time when she says there's nothing going on. She comes home early, doesn't sneak around anymore like she did at the height of her EA. She still gets extremely defensive if the EA ever gets brought up (I think out of embarrasment and shame) and has never apologized to me for it since it wasn't physical."
I have to wonder, why do you think it wasn't physical? Because she said it wasn't? Also I have to wonder, did she and the OM have a formal "break up" or what? How did they stop their affair? If you don't have a lot of details about this, then how can you believe her that its over? Unless maybe there is some detail you've left out, like that he dumped her and you saw the evidence of it.
You said: "I don't know if she still has any residual feelings for her boss as she still won't talk to me about personal things. So how do I get the psychological sex switch turned back on after the WAW has turned it off?"
I'm going to take a guess here and tell you that you may not ever get it turned back on. It sounds to me like there is too much resistance on her part to reconcile with you. If she won't even talk about the R, still considers you two to be separated, only came back home because it was easier to help the kids....well, that doesn't sound like much hope. I don't mean to be a downer and maybe there is something that I have missed, but to me it sounds like she is just waiting this out and will leave again at her earliest opportunity. In the meantime, both you and she are in limbo and are unhappy.
I'm going to give you some straight up advice that you probably won't like: I think you should ask for a separation again, WITHOUT having any plan on working things out...and do NOT ask for counseling again, unless it is counseling for the children or the family together to prepare you for the pain of separation and possibly divorce. In other words, I think you should begin to move on, and that YOU should be steering the "moving on" ship by asking for the separation.
What you are doing right now, even though it is loving and courageous, is going to do nothing but continue to turn her off. You have allowed her to dictate what will and what will not happen during this whole thing (other than the inital throwing her out, which was the best thing I've read in your sitch so far). This has caused her to have no respect for you and for her to just feel that she is in control. Unfortunately, when a confused, frightened WAW is in control, you can expect the ship to toss and turn and probably end up shipwrecked.
If instead, you were to totally take control of steering this ship, then at the very minimum you can make sure it doesn't crash and your kids are protected as much as possible.
It is painful, yes I know. It is risky, yes that too. She may just say something like "oh GREAT, I WAS actually thinking we might be improving here and there might be a chance, but OH NO you have to go and ruin it, fine have your separation, we are DONE!" If she does say this, don't buy it. It will just be a reaction. From everything you are describing, she has no intention of trying to reconcile with you. So ... IMO ... the ONLY thing you might do that MIGHT cause her to want to reconcile is to pull the plug on her control and take it back.
I'm so sorry when I give advice like this because I so much want it to NOT be true. But when a WAW has it in her mind that she has all the control, then it is like a death sentence to her H and to the marriage. Try to keep in mind and remember that she doesn't actually WANT control of the ship. What she wants is to be happy but she is confused about how that can happen. She is convinced that being with you will not and is not making her happy. So...give her the opposite, for real this time. I know you were separated before, but I suspect she felt your presence hovering over her and wanting her back the whole time. This time, separate with the intention of moving on and you might get a different reaction from her.
And finally....
I don't buy it that the A wasn't physical. I also figure that the OM is a dirtbag and that the A will start up again at some point as long as she is still working there. And even if she changed jobs, her heart is still available, so another A will probably start up at the new job.
To me, the only tool you really have at your disposal, is in being able to take the power back IF you can stomach the risks involved.
Stuck I'm so sorry for your sitch. It makes me cry, really. How I wish that my ex-h had had the bright idea to do a DB plan or anything, as it would have worked on me. And it makes me so sad when some of these WAW's just don't seem to notice.
HOWEVER....having said that, Stuck you really must face your reality which seems to be telling you that she is willing to keep wiping her feet on you if you keep being willing to lay down and take it.
Stuck...I will be back and address your questions shortly.
Sweepsr....you said: "She cried that she keeps destroying everything good in her life."
To me this is the most important part of your post. When a person is self-destructive, you cannot do anything about it. You can try to help, but they will turn your help around and hurt themselves and others with it. She has to be left to face her problems on her own.
I know that you are a kind-hearted man and you sincerely want to help her. But because you are not a self-destructive time machine, you simply cannot fathom what lengths she will go to to destruct herself. Being kind is not going to help her, no matter how you wish it would. If a friend found YOU in need and was kind to YOU, then it WOULD help you. But that is because you are not a self-destructive time bomb.
We can't apply certain types of help to certain problems, yet that is what you are doing. You are trying to help her with kindness, yet this will not have any effect. If anything, your kindness toward her when you SHOULD be angry at her, will cause her to further self-destruct.
She knows that she is being unkind, hurtful, and downright cruel. And she is struggling to try to figure herself out and find out why she does these things. In order to TRULY help her, what you need to do is step aside and allow her to feel the consequences of her actions. THIS is the only thing that may cause her to change and try to help herself.
As long as you allow her to place you in the "friend zone" and you listen to her pitiful stories, she cannot be helped by this. She can only feel worse and worse about herself, and have less and less respect for you because you are helping her self-destruct.
You are such a good person, and it is so difficult for a good person to respond in a way that to them will feel cruel. So to you, it would feel as if you are being cruel if you simply told her "sorry hon, I can't listen to your story any longer, you'll have to find someone else to talk to". You would feel like a bad friend to do this. You would feel like you are being cruel or possibly forcing her off a ledge and you would be afraid of what she might do next. BUT...this is only because you are not a mental health professional and therefore you can't imagine all the ways that you are currently enabling and approving of her self-desctructive behavior. You think you are being kind, but in fact, you are helping her keep in a state of non-growth and limbo by enabling her bullcrap.
So be a good man, not a nice man. Do the right thing, not the easy thing. It will not be easy for you to set a boundary upon her and not listen to her anymore...but that IS the right thing. The right thing is rarely the easy thing.
Thanks for the insight DQ. I totally agree with you with every point mentioned. In fact, I wouldn't still be in this R if I didn't see any forward progress in our R. If you were to ask me 4 months ago if we could be where we are now, I would say no way.
So that part of me still has some hope, although I'm detached enough that if I came home and she wasn't there, I'd be fine. In fact, several times as recently as a week and a half ago, I told her point blank that while I do love her, I don't NEED her and she was more than welcome to walk out the door with no regrets. I forgave her for what she did and that's that.
In the same conversation about a week ago, I told her everything that I thought was wrong in our past relationship and what she's doing wrong now. I carefully watched her body language and when I hit a point that she disagreed with, I switched it in a way that seemed to make sense to her. All the while she actually sat there and listened when in the past, she would have walked out the door and driven off. Afterwards, she thanked me for talking to her.
And that's what gives me a sliver of hope. In the past two R conversations that she started a little of and I pushed, she actually thanked me for talking to her and she had put a few changes in place. This was the first "thank you" for anything in over a year. And she actually sat and listened rather than just stewing like a punished child.
Sorry should have mentioned this earlier.
That's why I was wondering if it was time for me to push the next level and address her intimacy issue. I seriously doubt she even realizes she's doing it. In our conversations, she admitted that she didn't remember have the history re-writing she was doing.
So like your sitch where you said you wish your H would have done something shake you and make you realize what you were doing, I was wondering if I should do the same.
I can't make her fall in love with me. But if I make her aware of the blocks that she's putting up, maybe I can have her lower them enough to get in. I feel the trust thing has always been an issue with her and I've been re-establishing the trust with her a little at a time. 4 months ago she actually told me she was afraid to be in the same room with me and would call the cops. Now we sit on the bed talking. Crazy times indeed.
So with that I do have hope, but I don't know if I should wait another couple of weeks to address the intimacy thing or just push ahead and tell her the issue head on. I am detached and confident so I really feel like I have nothing to lose but everything to gain.
Maybe you could say what were some specific things you wanted your ex-H or even current one to do?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
