Another new topic! already? Here we go

[Aud31]

Hey, been wondering where you were. Are you okay?

Why do we go through this? Why do we eat healthy? Why do we exercise? Why do we go to school? Why do we GAL? Why do we get out of bed in the morning? Because at the end of it, if we choose, we are better for it.

Of course you have the choice to let go and move on. There are no guarantees that the next person's issues will be better or worse than your W's.

For me, I chose to stay and keep things as simple as possible for my kids. I hope in the end it is the best thing for me too. If it isn't, then I'll have another choice to make. But I like to believe I'm a stronger person for going through all this.

One last quick thought...I strongly feel that our society in general is far too disposable in every aspect, and certainly that shows in divorce rates. I know you've worked hard LN...harder than so many others who have just thrown in the towel, so I'm not accusing here...just observing.

[LoginName]

CL,
Everyone one does have to decide on their own. Your standard is a logical one.

But, why? Why bother?

Maybe I've learned to detach too much. Maybe the physical seperation between my W and me is a bigger factor than I think, but I'm often wondering why bother.

The kids are a big reason, but my son is leaving for college next year, my daughter is doing great with W (though I miss her terribly - even that is getting easier)so they seem to be doing well. My W and I are and I believe would remain good friends and put the kids as a first priority. I'm lucky in that. Not everyone's spouse is able to think of the kids first.

So if you take kids out of the equation, what's left?

Do you still believe in love? Why? Do you think you can have love with your spouse, after all that's been changed, all that's been broken? I'm not crying about how terrible my W is and how she destroyed my believe in love. She didn't. Our M was in trouble long before she left.

Which leads to the next question: what has changed? Anything? My W and I are the same people we were before the bomb. Why would I think our M would be better? Why would I think it's fixed. H3LL, I don't even really know what the problem was.

The only way I really think I've changed is that I'm no longer content to be a martyr. I won't settle. I don't mean I'm demanding everything is my way, but if I'm unhappy, I'm not going to suffer and go along, I'm going to do something about it.

What's changed in my W? Maybe she's broken those habits of thought, as she has told me, of feeling responsible for everyone's happiness, especially mine. Maybe she's broken the habit of thinking she needed my permission to do anything (where did she ever get that idea, and I never had a clue?).

Maybe with those simple changes, we can have a great M. But I think just as likely, we could both see that we don't need or want to be married to each other, and maybe to anyone.

GALing, detaching, living away from her, I'm pretty happy. I like living alone. I would say why ever live with someone, or be with someone else, but I know the answer to that. We are social creatures. We need to connect with another, and share parts of our lives with others.

But would a "friend" serve that purpose as well or better than a spouse? Have friends, date, even get serious and then if (more likely, when) you grow tired of each other, move on.

Why work so hard.

If I let the weather simply flow through me, wouldn't I relax, move on?

Why do you keep trying CL? Do you still believe in the fairy tale? I think I still do. Maybe only when I completely have lost faith in love, will I figure it out.

Why work so hard, when she still calls the OM (or in your case, sleeps elsewhere)? For me, it doesn't hurt much at all anymore, but the fact that she still wants to keep it private tells me something.

Is it actually possible for two people to mate for life and be happy? And if it is possible, is it only because those two are lucky - never had to face the challenge that would have broken them?

I just want to know, to understand. My guess, right now, is that love doesn't really exist. You have to, Have to, take care of yourself. Happy doesn't mean life is a party, but it does mean you live your life the way you were meant to, with integrity to yourself. You can't compromise certain parts of yourself.

I don't expect some wild change in anyone's behavior. Being true to yourself is more internal than external. Others might not even see a difference, but you'll know.

I wish you all the luck in the world, CL. If you've answered these questions, please, clue me in. If the questions don't mean much to you, tell me that too.

I don't see much of a difference between D and M, as a choice. Make the one that's best for you.

I'm staying M, until I decide not to be. I assume my W is doing the same. It can happen any time, any day. I try to be relaxed and comfortable with that knowledge, but it probably does keep me from being as close to her as I was.

I could keep babbeling (babbling?) on and on, and I probably will, but I'll keep it to myself for now, this is long enough.

I need to research what it means to be a knight of infinite faith, as oppossed to a knight of infinite resignation. I never want to be resigned again.

[LoginName]

Whew, I just spilled a bunch in a response to CL. Anyway...
Why do we go through this? Because it's the same as eating? In other words, it's part of life, it's what we do as people, just like eating. Is that your point?

If it is, I think it's a good one. But maybe I've grown tired of the menu, or the selection here upsets my stomach these days and it's time to try other food.

The funny part is, there is not guarantee the next person will be better, but it's a sure bet the next person will have issues and problems. So why bother with anybody at all? Life is good by yourself, why muck it up with someone else's problems?

For 3 small kids, I'd make it work too.

I always appreciate, Aud, that you don't give the hard core DB line, and your not just a cheerleader, that you give this real thought. You are a strong person. I think all this has made me stronger too. I feel I've woken, and now I'm trying to figure out what happened while I was asleep. One think I do know is I never want to be asleep again. I want to live my life, be in it, feel.

We do live in a disposable society. And our economy pushes families apart. It's hard to fight against our society, culture, economy, etc.

Why do this? In my response to CL, I mentioned that my faith in Love and the fairy tale were broken, or at least severly damaged. But, maybe, after all this work, something does become clear, something does work out and get better. The things really worth having are worth working hard for, being patient for. Our throw away culture doesn't value those things much, but the prize may be (May Be) wonderful.

Of course, once you do figure it out, and life gets good, it's only a matter of time before the next challenge hits you, the next lesson, and all your prior lessons don't help, because this lesson is new. :-)

You still doing well Aud. What's up in your world? Small steps?

[Concerned_Listener]

LIN,
I understand your questions, and I too grapple with them. I also understand your questioning whether a M can be healed after it's been traumatized. I also understand your question of wondering what it is we are working for. Did I capture your main questions?

I keep going because my W shows signs that she wants connection and intimacy. I keep going because some of the changes I make in the Piecing stage will take time to bear fruit--world travel in the Friendship Force. I keep going because I keep growing and learning from this experience, particularly learning how to hold onto goodwill and compassion, even when things are unpleasant or unfair.

I keep going because my W sent me a long email sharing her struggles with depression, aging, body image issues, and other issues. From a practical standpoint, declaring D would be like declaring war, and would be far more unpleasant than to keep working on myself and the M.

If I'm not trying than what am I doing? In my case, it would be looking for an easier life elsewhere, not being willing to do the hard work of loving a flawed human being, giving in to the patterns of resentment, anger, and egocentrism.

Those patterns are what contributed to our separation six years ago. I had privately given up, and was living for myself. I should have had the courage to tell her that I no longer wanted to be married, if I wasn't going to work on things. I was immature in so many ways.

I frequently compare my M to a year prior, and always notice that it's better than before. When it's time to D, I think my M will be a dead car battery that can't be revived.

I think learning how to love under any circumstances with this human being that I've chosen to enter a legal arrangement with, is more important than whether or not we stay legally married.

All that I've mentioned keep me going. Thanks for the best wishes and good luck.

I wish you happiness, freedom from suffering, gratitude for the joys you have, and openness for whatever comes your way.

CL

[lodo]

Hey login,

Good question, why bother. I mean, that's really it, isn't it? This, my friend, is what's known as baggage. This is the stuff we didn't have when we first met our spouses. It was all new then. Now we just ask, what's the point?

But you know what? This isn't about W anymore, it's about you. It's about you being jaded and disillusioned and being burdened down with all this baggage so much so that it colors your outlook.

I was watching a movie the other day and there was a scene where a young couple professed their undying love and readiness to marry. I blurted out, "Watch out, there's only pain and misery ahead!" That was me. My baggage. Stuff I'd be better off leaving behind.

We each are constantly changing and creating our own reality. You say you aren't content to be a martyr. Ok. What, then, are you willing to create? What are you willing to fight for and transform? What are you willing to do differently that pulls life out of its ruts and starts it skittering into new directions? Sure, it could be a colossal failure. That's the risk we take. Better to fail, though, than never try.

Ask for what you want, and don't be afraid to want it. I think you're thinking too much, trying to conform too much, second guessing too much. Maybe that's valid - only you know your sitch. But if I were you I'd think about this a little more clearly and stop coloring the present with the past. Close the door on that chapter. Start a new one with the existing circumstances. After all, you could D your W and then end up dating someone who is very much like her, in similar circumstances.

So what are you willing to do for the person you claim to love? And if you aren't, why not? Fear? Feelings of betrayal? Disinterest? Figuring that out is part of the journey and part of the process of shedding the baggage.

My $.02. lodo

[LoginName]

Ah, the perfect time to chat online, bare your soul, and maybe even give advice... just drank a bottle of wine wine with a delicious meal, fun with my son, now laying in bed pirating my neighbor's wireless internet...
Hehheehehehe

So anyway...

it's about you. It's about you being jaded and disillusioned

so lodo, do you, can you, believe in love anymore? Intelectually, I said I didn't believe it before the bomb. How can I believe in it now? (I do though. I'm a sap. I don't know what it means, but I know I can still feel it.)

say you aren't content to be a martyr. Ok. What, then, are you willing to create?

I'm creating my

life now. I love my life right now, and it doesn't have to include my W. Why should it? Life is good. A bottle of wine, I cooked a great meal, I enjoyed the cooking, the meal, the wine, and none of it is any less because she is absent. No what I mean? So why put her in the equation at all?

I blurted out, "Watch out, there's only pain and misery ahead

There is, isn't there? Totally changes the way you see movies, read books, listen to love songs. There is pain and misery ahead, and joy, and love, and transendence. And if it doesn't work with this one, it can work with another. Or, if not work, at least go through the highs and lows again. Why fight for this one? Why not try another who may work out better?

failure. That's the risk we take. Better to fail, though, than never try.

So why not try with someone else, or by yourself?

I'm not quite as jaded or cynical as I may apear. I still feel my heart flutter when my W calls and says certain things, or has a certain tone in her voice. I think the separation is a big part of my problem, and something I'll have to figure out how to live with or deal with. I do think I could be at least as happy by myself or with someone else. I think I'd look for someone else to share my life with, if I divorced. I think I'd be happy by myself too. Life is pretty cool, fun, interesting, with or without her.

My answer, today, right now, for "why bother"... I want to share my life with someone. My W is as good and better than most to share it with. Also, I don't think this journey is done. I'm learning something here and I'm not ready to stop learning.

Making the scale smaller, I see that over the years I have developed a negative interpretation of my W's actions. It's so easy to see her actions as cold, distant, and unaffectionate. If I change my interpretation of her actions and words, it changes the relationship. Maybe she has changed. Maybe she is sincere when she says I love you. Why not interpret it positively?

Still, I have and am really enjoying my new life. It will be hard to give it up and to move to AR, and it will be hard to stay married and live in different states.

Whew, good wine. :-)

I hope you all are having as much fun as me, and, lodo, I'm reading your post and hope to have something worthwhile to add in future. Regardless, have fun, enjoy, good luck.

[Aud31]

Sorry I've not replied in a while LN...I wanted to sit down and really process your thoughts before responding, and life has been CRAZY BUSY.

I too think you might be overthinking the issue. Why bother? Why not? It's all a choice. Make it and move forward one way or the other. The fairy tale was overly simplistic to begin with, all butterflies and roses. Real love is a choice. A verb. So much more than a feeling. It's nice when the feelings are there...it's work when they're not. But I think it's worth it long-term to stick it out--like you said, the things really worth having are worth working hard for, being patient for.

I can't answer your deep questions for you...wish I could. I'm getting a sense of resignation and indifference in regards to your M from your recent posts, and while I completely understand your feeling that way, I think these feelings indicate that you're at a crossroads, and you are feeling the need to make a choice. Life *is* hard, it would be nice to see the end of the road before you choose it. But you can't, so you do the best you can. I know you're good where you're at, on your own, but it appears to me that you need to choose a direction and pursue it to find the passion you really want in your life. It'll likely require effort either way. So which way do you want to go?

[LoginName]

Hey Aud, no apologies necessary, of course. We all get busy, and at our stage of peiceing, I think it's different and harder to find the motivation to post. So, thanks.

Here are a couple of my quick thoughts: 1) maybe somethings have to be acted on and not talked or thought about. So the separation my W and I are going through make it tough. We just need to be together to see how things work. 2) you can only do so much with yourself, by yourself. Much of these sitches concern working on the relationship. You can only do that (most of it, anyway) IN the relationship, not just thinking on your own. 3) GAL, etc is really important - then comes another hard part, GAL With someone else.

I'm still trying to figure out what I need, what I'm looking for. Yes, fairy tale was simplistic, but I'm not willing to settle for a lack of passion (do women find it easier to give up that passion than men?). There is a right answer for me, a path that goes away from the false infatuation and the resignation of age, and finds a middle way that has aspects of passion and comfort and choice.

I've had a lot of resignation and indifference, and I've thought a lot about ending the whole M/R. Don't you still think and feel that way sometimes? But I think I've made my choice, and I'm stinking it out, fighting, struggling for my M and R. Sometimes I feel optimistic. I'm also giving myself permission to change my mind if I need to. I don't want to, but I can. It will always be a choice. Each day, a new choice, to stay Married, be in love. Some days will be easier than others, and I hope the easy days start coming soon. :-)

My co-workers are going through marital problems (is anybody happy?). I see them making the mistakes I made and I want to yell don't do it, change, think, look, see, before it's too late. Could they hear me, would they understand, or do we have to go through it ourselves in order to understand?

Happy VD day!! What an evil holiday, but I'll toast to Venus, Aphrodite, Cupid, and the rest. Here's to LOVE.

[Aud31]

Re: your quick thoughts...

1)Yeah, some things do have to just be a decision to follow your gut and act. The separation *has* to make things that much more complex. I get that it's hard to pull up your stakes and move to her when the future seems uncertain considering her emotional distance and her continued communication with OM. (If I remember right, she had similar reservations about moving to where you are?) Definitely difficult to work on it together if you're not physically in the same place.

2)Goes back to #1, I think. But yeah, it takes effort on both parts.

3)SO TRUE: you can't ever let GAL go...but you do need to find ways to do it while connecting.

Nothing wrong with still trying to figure out what you need/want. I don't think you should settle for a lack of passion (I don't think it's a woman/man thing. I think sometimes we get so busy or hopeless we kind of go on autopilot, and that is what gets us in trouble)...I learned through all this that I have to have that in my life, and while I occasionally wonder if I'll ever have exactly what I want, I also accept that my H is who he is, and it's not right for me to expect things of him that are not in keeping with his self. So I've been enjoying what I do have with him...and things are much better.

There is a right answer for me, a path that goes away from the false infatuation and the resignation of age, and finds a middle way that has aspects of passion and comfort and choice.

There is a right answer for you. And you'll find it somehow. Perhaps being aware that you need to find it is half the battle.

I'm past going back on forth on whether to D or not...but I've got these beautiful little kids, and that is a big incentive for me at this point. For sure some days are and will be easier than others...and I hope the easy days start soon for you as well.

I'm with you on how hard it is to watch others make the same mistakes. I think it depends on the person whether they would listen or have to just experience the consequences to understand. What would you have said to someone who tried to tell you what was ahead?

Hang in there. And Happy V-Day to you too...I hope you get to do something nice this weekend. ((hugs))

[LoginName]

Thank Aud, for the comments. I read them, then later talked to my wife. I'm going to write/journal about that talk first, then, if I've enough energy left, I'll respond more to your post.

Talked to my wife: we talked about taxes, kids, day to day life. The talk was nice, as it almost always is. We get along well, we are good partners. Phone call ends. I'm feeling like I'm missing something. I realize what it is - that passion thing, or fun, or I don't know what to call it. That feeling that you're more than just good friends, good business partners. That feeling, spark, tingle. Feeling special, feeling that the other person is special. Anyone know what I mean? Is it too adolecent, immature of a feeling? I don't care if it is, it's what I need and want.

So many times over the years I've felt this way and I've kept it inside. Sometimes I've tried to talk about this with my W. I hate talking about it with her. She hears me saying she is inadequate, not meeting my needs and a failure. I hate hurting her. She tells me I'm needy and immature, I don't like hearing that either. So I've learned to keep a lot of this feeling to myself.

But things are different now. I decide to call her and tell her how I feel. I tell her I need more than just being good friends, partners and parents. After tears, all the normal feelings, she asks what exactly I'm asking from her. Fair question. Hard to answer.

Yes, it is related to sex, but it's more than that. I told her I need to hear her say she misses me, she wants me, she wants to touch me, she wants me sitting on the couch watching her favorite TV show with her, that she feels something special when she thinks of me.

Is that too much too ask? If she can't do that, or at least try harder, I'd rather be alone. About 12 years or so of me feeling this way is long enough. Maybe this is the root, or one of the roots or our problem. Now we're going to deal with it.

Didn't she feel this way about me at one time? Didn't she feel that way about the OM? So she should know what that feeling is, and know if she can feel it and express it toward me.If she can't, then fine. I'll be alone, or find someone else who can.

She can, and has, given me what I want and need, so I know she can do it. She's even done it while we've been living in separate states. Sometimes (not very often, is the problem) she's talked to me via phone, texted me, IMed me, and I have felt like a teenager, my insides melt. I've been married 24 years, I can still feel that way. I still like feeling that way.

I'm not giving up, or in. The situation seems to be a lose lose one. She can never please me enough, I have to life with unmet needs and just keep my feelings to myself. That can't work. How to cut this gordian knot?

The only hint of an answer I've seen is in the book Passionate Marriage. And, as I understand it, it takes time, is painful, and is worth it. It's basically know what you want, make your choice, face the consequences, but don't give up if it is what you really want or need. Don't make ultimatums in order to coerce the other person, but if it's something you can't give in on and still have personal integrity (be true to yourself, not hide part of yourelf)then don't give in. Be ready to face the consequences, even divorce, even being alone.

whew, I'm tired. It shouldn't have to be this hard.