Well...

[SDFoundGirl]

Well...it sorta helps that it wasn't a PA (though I think the long term effects on *me* are worse than if it had just been about sex). I've actually been with them together, and she's not interested in him. I *do* think she knows he'd been interested in her (women know these things, and *I* knew it before I found any proof), and I *do* think she keeps him strung along by being all flirty and calling him and stuff. I think it makes her feel powerful and attractive. Incidentally, I found a picture of her online recently that shows she's gained tons of weight and looks old as hell. I am WAY cuter than her, and I would never interfere in someone else's marriage...which she did, back when this all started.

Know why I haven't said anything? I don't want my source of snooping to dry up. Let him think I don't know anything...and then I will choose for myself what I want.

It makes me tired, though. I didn't know until recently that he'd never stopped contact with her. There was nothing in his actions that said otherwise, so I guess I'm wondering if I should even worry. She is a symptom, yes? So then I have to be the solution, provided I'm willing and able to be that person.

Right now I'm willing to keep trying. I did, however, label her birthday on my calendar as "Fat Ugly Whore Day!"

I wish I could let it all go...contemplating going back into IC so I can keep working on me. Ultimately, that's all the control I have.

SD

[Rob1231]

Hi SD,

I'll echo Jen's sentiment - although I'm sorry you are having a rough time, I am always happy to hear from you. Missed you!

OK then, let's see what we can do for ya. First, let me just say that I wish I could smack your idiot H upside the head with a 2x4. What a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say!

And I have to say, your post sent a little shiver down my spine. For full disclosure, I will confess that every very great once-in-a-while I too succumb to the snooping temptation, even with no real hints of trouble to make me "go there." I'm thankful that I've never found any bad surprises - but I fully understand how hard it is to completely give up those insecurities that came from being bombed. (((Serious hugs)))

So, let me harp a little on my usual rant about OW. She's not important, an icky band-aid, remember? Whether she's fat and haggard, or a nympho supermodel, doesn't make a bit of difference. She could be hit by a truck tomorrow (don't get any ideas!) and it wouldn't make your marriage one bit stronger. Because if it wasn't her, it would be someone else - if your H is not committed to your marriage, there are always going to be plenty of opportunities for him to stray. So instead of her, let's focus on the real problem - his attitude.

It's been a while, and I confess my memory is vague. Did you ever confront H, so that he knows all about your having read The Letter, way back when?

Here's why I ask. It sounds to me like H is downplaying to himself the significance of his EA. ("Heck, we never even did nuthing.") Telling himself that as long as it doesn't grow into a PA, it's just a little harmless fantasy. SD getting all upset about it her own problem, blowing things way outta proportion. Does that sound about right?

Well, if that's where he's coming from, I think it's high time for that to change.

You said:

Well...it sorta helps that it wasn't a PA (though I think the long term effects on *me* are worse than if it had just been about sex).

Does H really get this? Does he understand that you know the full depth of his emotional betrayal of your marriage, and that this is EVERY BIT OR EVEN MORE damaging than if he slept with her? Betraying you with his body is one thing, but betraying you with his heart - only someone who's been where we have been could really know how much that wounds us. It's not all in your head, SD, and there's nothing trivial or inconsequential about it. If you don't think H truly comprehends the devastating impact of his past actions, then I think you need to spell it out for him - because that's the root of why a "harmless" 20 minute phone call sends you into a tailspin.

Bottling this up is clearly eating away at you. Maybe if what you're doing isn't working, then do something different...?

Now, before this thread gets totally off into the weeds of the dark side, I want you to tell us a lot more about the GOOD stuff. You said things have generally been positive between you - share some that! What's been good lately?

You said you're stepping up spending time with each other. GALing for yourself is always important, but so is GALing together! Don't just settle for getting back to having a mostly-happy marriage. You have already become the Jedi Master of Personal Growth; now think about how to generate some Relationship Growth as well. It doesn't have to be all heart-to-heart conversations and bare-your-soul weekends, either. Just make sure you are putting that time and effort into having FUN together. (Just for example, W and I are still taking dancing lessons, among other things.)

Hang in there, SD, and keep smiling!

Rob

[SDFoundGirl]

OK then, let's see what we can do for ya. First, let me just say that I wish I could smack your idiot H upside the head with a 2x4. What a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say!

Yes. Yes he is. And you have my full permission to whack him a good one. :-)

And I have to say, your post sent a little shiver down my spine. For full disclosure, I will confess that every very great once-in-a-while I too succumb to the snooping temptation, even with no real hints of trouble to make me "go there." I'm thankful that I've never found any bad surprises - but I fully understand how hard it is to completely give up those insecurities that came from being bombed. (((Serious hugs)))

I'm glad you've never found anything. And yes, someone who's never been in our position can't understand that compulsion...that sense of never being 100%. I miss that trust and faith so much, and I don't see that I will ever get that back.

I have to say, I'd actually backed off a lot from it. However, after Christmas I put forth some extra effort to get access to something to check it all out. STRANGELY I was sort of comforted to find out that contact didn't start up again all of a sudden; it had just never ceased. I know that may sound weird, but if things are generally good with us and contact is still happening AND I never noticed anything, then it becomes less of a worry/crisis. That may make no sense to anyone else, but the best thing I did was dig deeper than what I'd originally found to see the big picture.

ONE thing I am sure of is that H doesn't fake anything well, so I'm pretty sure nothing is going on.

So, let me harp a little on my usual rant about OW. She's not important, an icky band-aid, remember? Whether she's fat and haggard, or a nympho supermodel, doesn't make a bit of difference.

Ah yes, but it gives me a perverse pleasure to know she has become EVEN MORE of a hag. Surely you can give me that sweet, sweet pleasure. And I don't want to run her over with a truck. However, I'd just ADORE it if she developed a horrible flatulence problem, her teeth turned funky green and black, and she started sprouting long gray hairs from her chin.

Yes, I know she's a symptom, and it's not even about her. It's about H...about how dang frustrated I am to have gone through as much MC as we did and to have personally worked as hard as I have on our M only to have him doing the same sh*t that contributed to the demise of our M in the first place. He still holds onto stuff and pretends it doesn't bother him. He's all wrapped up in the enlightenment cr*p, believing that he's able to just let things go and not have human feelings. Which, no matter how much we work on ourselves, is just not possible. So, instead of saying, "Hey, SD, you really ticked me off when..." or, "You know what I'd like more of? When you want to jump my bones in the morning," or whatever.

This I cannot do FOR him. I have expressed my desire to hear what he has to say, many times, in many ways. I have told him my fear is he will just hold on to things like before instead of letting us work together to address our issues. I don't know what else I could possibly do on that front. At some point it has to be his responsibility, right?

It's been a while, and I confess my memory is vague. Did you ever confront H, so that he knows all about your having read The Letter, way back when?

Here's why I ask. It sounds to me like H is downplaying to himself the significance of his EA.

Well, if that's where he's coming from, I think it's high time for that to change.

You said:

Well...it sorta helps that it wasn't a PA (though I think the long term effects on *me* are worse than if it had just been about sex).

Does H really get this? Does he understand that you know the full depth of his emotional betrayal of your marriage, and that this is EVERY BIT OR EVEN MORE damaging than if he slept with her? Betraying you with his body is one thing, but betraying you with his heart - only someone who's been where we have been could really know how much that wounds us. It's not all in your head, SD, and there's nothing trivial or inconsequential about it. If you don't think H truly comprehends the devastating impact of his past actions, then I think you need to spell it out for him - because that's the root of why a "harmless" 20 minute phone call sends you into a tailspin.

I finally told him I knew about The Letter at the end of December. He said that his IC had told him to write it as a way to express himself and get his feelings off his chest. I asked if she'd told him to write multiple drafts including one that begged her to consider him, and he had no answer. His main response was, "That was TWO years ago!" I also told him then (as I'd told him a couple of times before) that his emotional attachment had hurt me in a way that sex with her never could...that the emotional attachment was by far the worst thing anyone had ever done to hurt me. I don't know how to spell it out any plainer than that.

Can I confess something here? You might remember I developed a friendship with a guy while H and I were going through all of this...he was going through something similar with an ex-GF. Although we kept it platonic, we were both really attracted to each other. Ultimately, we ended our contact with each other out of respect to H as we were reconciling.

Well, there are times I wish I'd gone ahead and cheated on H. Let him feel even a fraction of the pain he caused me and has NEVER apologized for. Still doesn't get or care...or maybe can't accept that he did such a horrible, human thing. 'Cause H is the "good guy" to everyone, considers himself an upstanding human being, and to admit what he did and how badly he hurt me might be impossible to his self image. He preserves that picture at all costs...hence the martyrdom.

There have been times, lately, where I've fantasized about calling my friend up and doing just that. Not nice, but it's honest and true and I would never act on it.

Now, before this thread gets totally off into the weeds of the dark side, I want you to tell us a lot more about the GOOD stuff. You said things have generally been positive between you - share some that! What's been good lately?

You said you're stepping up spending time with each other. GALing for yourself is always important, but so is GALing together! Don't just settle for getting back to having a mostly-happy marriage. You have already become the Jedi Master of Personal Growth; now think about how to generate some Relationship Growth as well.
Rob

Well, generally we get along. Things have been pretty smooth. We go out to eat, to movies, etc. However, most of the really good stuff has been in the past month, and it's mostly because I've really stepped it up myself. (I wish I didn't have to do all the work...H wants things, but he won't ask, won't mention them, just waits for me to figure it out. Mostly I have to snoop to know anything...and I use that information to work on us. *sigh*)

So, in the past month I have made sure that when we're together, I do nothing else. I can multi-task really well, but you're never fully present when you do. So, if we're watching TV together, I snuggle up next to him and we chat about what we're watching. I have been suggesting activities--movies I want to see, restaurants I want to go to, people I want to hang out with, etc.--instead of waiting on him. I have been initiating sex more often and being available more often. ML has actually improved a lot in the last month, and that has everything to do with me trying to set the other stuff aside and just enjoying the sexual contact.

I have also really ramped up the way I dress. More dresses and skirts, more cleavage (tasteful, not hootchie), more heels. I make the conscious effort to accessorize and always look amazing. It's been good for my PMA too.

I journal every day and consciously work on letting go of the small stuff, working on my PMA so I am pretty positive. I would love it if I could have a bad day though and just be grumpy without it becoming a bad thing. I am a real person after all, and I do have bad days. I'm not much of a pretender.

I also initiated two big home improvement projects that have made a significant impact on our home. H is beyond excited about that.

Yesterday he told me I've been amazing lately, that he's so proud of me. I don't know what to think of that; I sort of feel like he's my parent or my teacher. So I earned a gold star? I want to be loved because of me, not because I've been a Very Good Girl. Incidentally, his number and duration of contacts with LW have decreased significantly since I stepped it up. Not gone, but way less. Stupid nasty band aid. You know, that gooey one floating in the pool.

So, that's it. Glad you chimed in as you always make me think. Plus I miss you guys...we spent a long, long summer and then some together.

I just wonder when I won't worry or wonder anymore, you know?

[Rob1231]

I'm glad you've never found anything. And yes, someone who's never been in our position can't understand that compulsion...that sense of never being 100%. I miss that trust and faith so much, and I don't see that I will ever get that back.

Part of me says that's part of "growing up" - putting the innocence of youth behind. But, that's just the cynical old fart part of me talking.

I have to say, I'd actually backed off a lot from it. However, after Christmas I put forth some extra effort to get access to something to check it all out. STRANGELY I was sort of comforted to find out that contact didn't start up again all of a sudden; it had just never ceased. I know that may sound weird, but if things are generally good with us and contact is still happening AND I never noticed anything, then it becomes less of a worry/crisis. That may make no sense to anyone else, but the best thing I did was dig deeper than what I'd originally found to see the big picture.

Yeah, that actually does make sense to me.

Ah yes, but it gives me a perverse pleasure to know she has become EVEN MORE of a hag. Surely you can give me that sweet, sweet pleasure.

You got it! Just more proof that the typical screwed up MLCer "trades down", eh?

Yes, I know she's a symptom, and it's not even about her. It's about H...about how dang frustrated I am to have gone through as much MC as we did and to have personally worked as hard as I have on our M only to have him doing the same sh*t that contributed to the demise of our M in the first place.
...
I don't know what else I could possibly do on that front. At some point it has to be his responsibility, right?

Yep, yep, YEP!

I finally told him I knew about The Letter at the end of December. He said that his IC had told him to write it as a way to express himself and get his feelings off his chest. I asked if she'd told him to write multiple drafts including one that begged her to consider him, and he had no answer. His main response was, "That was TWO years ago!" I also told him then (as I'd told him a couple of times before) that his emotional attachment had hurt me in a way that sex with her never could...that the emotional attachment was by far the worst thing anyone had ever done to hurt me. I don't know how to spell it out any plainer than that.

Good for you! I know how very tough that must have been. But I think that, in your case, that you needed to get that off of your chest.

Ya know, I have never confessed all of my snooping to my W. I applied the rule "Will this get me closer to my goals, or not?" and this was the best answer. However, if she was still in contact with that PoS OM, I believe it would be a much different story at this stage of the game.

Can I confess something here? You might remember I developed a friendship with a guy while H and I were going through all of this...he was going through something similar with an ex-GF. Although we kept it platonic, we were both really attracted to each other. Ultimately, we ended our contact with each other out of respect to H as we were reconciling.

Well, there are times I wish I'd gone ahead and cheated on H. Let him feel even a fraction of the pain he caused me and has NEVER apologized for.
...
There have been times, lately, where I've fantasized about calling my friend up and doing just that. Not nice, but it's honest and true and I would never act on it.

I hear ya, SD. I think everybody has revenge fantasies from time to time. But, bottom line, you're better than that.

Still doesn't get or care...or maybe can't accept that he did such a horrible, human thing. 'Cause H is the "good guy" to everyone, considers himself an upstanding human being, and to admit what he did and how badly he hurt me might be impossible to his self image. He preserves that picture at all costs...hence the martyrdom.

Maybe that's your lever. You COULD just keep peeling away that veneer of the "good guy" with regards to his contacting LW. You know, regularly ask him out of the blue, "So, had any long chats with your adulterous b!tch mistress today?" Nah, I don't think you should do that. But it's tempting, eh? Tear down that fantasy.

Jumping through lots of very good stuff to my favorite part:

Yesterday he told me I've been amazing lately, that he's so proud of me. I don't know what to think of that; I sort of feel like he's my parent or my teacher. So I earned a gold star? I want to be loved because of me, not because I've been a Very Good Girl. Incidentally, his number and duration of contacts with LW have decreased significantly since I stepped it up. Not gone, but way less. Stupid nasty band aid. You know, that gooey one floating in the pool.

Now this time, I think you are over-thinking it. Take it at face value, girl. You HAVE been amazing lately. Hell, you've been amazing for quite a while, but it's nice that he's finally noticing. Don't spin his being proud of you into something insincere or condescending. You are a terrific woman, and any man with half a brain would be D@MN proud to have you. Just smile and enjoy the compliment.

So, that's it. Glad you chimed in as you always make me think. Plus I miss you guys...we spent a long, long summer and then some together.

I think of you and Jen (and lots other DBers too, but most especially you two) as some of the best friends I have ever had. Any time you want to just keep in touch without the DB atmosphere floating around, don't forget that we're over in the Alternate Universe too. Be happy to see you there.

Speaking of which, really cool news! W, D16 and I are going to take a trip to the UK this summer (assuming we don't lose all our savings in the financial mess, that is.) I'm already lining up Jen to go out to a London pub some afternoon. Is that cool or WHAT?

I just wonder when I won't worry or wonder anymore, you know?

I do know. It keeps improving for me with time - long, long periods go by now, where I don't think back on the Bad Old Days. Life is good, and getting better all the time.

[SDFoundGirl]

Hooray on the trip! I'm jealous...although H and I have been talking about spending 2-3 weeks in Europe with a Eurorail pass and no set plans this summer. It would be a HUGE 180 for me...I like structure and planning. But I'm working on letting go and trusting that H will get things done...he always does.

I think what I really need to do is go back into IC to work on this issue. For my sanity, I need to let this go. I can't control anything H does, and I have to find my way back to personal peace one way or the other. Skanky whore or not. (Couldn't resist!)

SD

[Rob1231]

Hooray on the trip! I'm jealous...although H and I have been talking about spending 2-3 weeks in Europe with a Eurorail pass and no set plans this summer. It would be a HUGE 180 for me...I like structure and planning. But I'm working on letting go and trusting that H will get things done...he always does.

Wow, no planning? Outside of my comfort zone, WAAAAAAAAY outside of my W's. Hope that works out OK!

Gee, maybe you can arrange to be in London around July 15-20. Now THAT would be a party of epic proportions!

Gotta point out, I found these two quotes from your posts really interesting, side by side:

He's all wrapped up in the enlightenment cr*p, believing that he's able to just let things go and not have human feelings. Which, no matter how much we work on ourselves, is just not possible.

I think what I really need to do is go back into IC to work on this issue. For my sanity, I need to let this go. I can't control anything H does, and I have to find my way back to personal peace one way or the other. Skanky whore or not. (Couldn't resist!)

I hope that you find a happy middle ground on "letting go" that does give you some peace, somewhere between "I need to do it" and "It's just not possible" - it kinda sounds like you have your work cut out for you!

I know you'll "get there"! Keep being wonderful!

Rob

[SDFoundGirl]

Wow, no planning? Outside of my comfort zone, WAAAAAAAAY outside of my W's. Hope that works out OK!

Gee, maybe you can arrange to be in London around July 15-20. Now THAT would be a party of epic proportions!

Well, we've booked the trip! We found crazy-good airfare to go during my spring break, so I'm going to take a few days off before that week and we're going to go. Right now we're getting a sense of what we'd both like to see, travel times on rail, etc. When I say no planning, I mean not booking lodging or planning to be in a certain city on a certain date. I've always wanted to travel that freely...it is going to stretch me, but I can do it!

So, today is V-Day. Honestly, I've always hated V-Day. There's so much pressure and hoopla around it that it seems contrived. I'm much more the type of person who appreciates and enjoys the small or large gestures throughout the year. For example, H bought me a bouquet of flowers in September because I was stressed out about work, and that meant tons more to me.

And yet, my H is a romantic. He *does* do the small gestures, but he also really likes V-Day without going into debt over it. Given where we were just a few weeks ago, I was thinking it was going to just be low key. Yet H got up early this morning, and when I came out he was sitting there with flowers, a card, and a gift certificate to my favorite spa. Tonight we're going out to eat somewhere that he says we both love but isn't a part of the traditional valentine's hoopla.

What surprised me was how I felt about it...it was actually nice. I didn't second guess the really amazing things he wrote in my card, and I didn't think about BFUW (LW's new acronym) at all. Something has shifted in both of us...I feel like I've begun to surrender.

The contact with BFUW has been nearly non-existent lately...so maybe my hard work and refocus is paying off. Or maybe H just read my journal where I've been writing about giving up and not guaranteeing I'll stick around. It doesn't even matter why...things are working between us a lot better.

So now I'm going to go take a nap and rest up for tonight.

Hope all of you are doing well and having a nice celebration!

SD

[Rob1231]

Hi SD, Sounds like a great V-day indeed! Good for you, just letting go of the dislike-it-because-it's-so-commercialized vibe and just enjoying the good parts.

Wow, you are brave "winging it" on a big trip like that. Can't wait to hear how it goes!

[SDFoundGirl]

So, as I posted here not so long ago, I'd found out H was still in contact with LW after he'd agreed on no contact but work. I've been working really hard to dealing with my own reactions and feelings to that, but still feeling irritated because he was lying to me simply by hiding it. How do you move forward if you don't have trust in your partner?

Contact had reduced considerably over the past couple of months, and H and I have both really stepped it up on our own to work on our M. Things had definitely shifted, suddenly, for us. Still, every time I saw that they'd had contact, I got upset and would withdraw a little each time. I've been journaling, making art, and processing it all with a really good friend, but I never said anything to H because I feared he'd just become a better liar.

Well, in the past 2-ish weeks, I've run into LW THREE times. Mind you, I've never run into her out and about before. Yet, in the space of 2 weeks, I have to see her ugly mugs three different times. I don't believe in coincidences; this was too extraordinary.

The first time she nearly hit me with her car in the parking lot when I was going to pick up some lunch before a meeting I had to attend. My stomach ended up in my throat, and it really rattled me. I congratulated myself for not cussing at her or ramming my car into her SUV (a strange car choice for a single tree-hugging woman, but okay).

The second time I ran into her at the Y where she works. The thing is, she didn't use to work at that branch, so I didn't expect to see her there.

The third time was today as I was sitting and getting my hair cut. In she walks to get her frizzy hair dyed by the stylist directly behind my stylist. I know she saw me...and just ignored me. I was thankful for that, and I just followed her lead. But, WTF??? The salon is nowhere near her house, her work, or the former branch she went to. It's not trendy or anything other than an ordinary salon. Yet somehow it's HER salon too, and she's scheduled an appointment at the same dang time I'm there.

I had a moment of sheer panic, and I have never been so happy in my life that my male stylist is over the top funny. He kept cracking jokes and I honestly had a great time for the remainder of the time I was there. I gave him an extra big tip.

So, I came home, and H asked how the cut went, how my day was, etc., and I made the decision then to just say it all out loud. I told him I was pretty sure LW was stalking me (not really), as I'd run into her three dang times in the past two weeks. We ended up having a really long conversation where we talked about the following things:

1. How I knew he was still talking to her. Initially he said, well I work with her, and I said yeah, but a 40-minute conversation and her being the first person you call when you get back into town after we just had tough time over the holidays isn't work related. He then admits that he called to catch up with her since he "couldn't" go to her Xmas party (then shifted to "didn't") and it was just friends stuff.

2. I told him that the reason I can't let this go is that he's lying to me about having no contact, and that if it were really on the up and up, he wouldn't have to lie to me. I told him I wasn't willing to have a marriage where we lie to each other. It keeps us apart. I told him I'd rather him tell me he wasn't going to stop talking to her than to just become a better liar.

3. I also told him that a real sticking point for me is he's never admitted that he crossed a line that really damaged our marriage. I told him I considered what he did an affair and explained about emotional affairs. I told him that was why I couldn't accept a friendship between them. H really listened to me and admitted that he'd done something that damaged our relationship and that he'd realized that and pulled back to work on us in MC eventually.

4. H said he really was just friends with LW, and that he doesn't believe in or even know how to drop someone as your friend. How could he explain that to her? I asked him how he could shift from having feelings for her to just seeing her as a friend. He told me it was just a decision he made, because he was with who he wanted to be, me. He said he chose me, chooses me daily, and loves me. I don't know that I completely buy the whole he just switched off his feelings for her thing, but I do believe he's committed to me.

5. We both agreed that things are getting really good between us as we've both been working really hard on the R.

6. H said that if it was really going to hurt our R, he'd figure out a way to end his friendship with LW. He doesn't know how you do that, but he said that was his problem and not mine. (Me, I say it's just you don't answer her calls and/or cut them short when they drift toward non-work subjects. But that's his learning, not mine.)

It was a really calm, really good conversation. I just told H I didn't want a marriage where we couldn't be honest and real with each other. I want the truth, and I don't want there to be anything we can't talk about.

I am so proud of myself and how far I've come. I actually said what I wanted to say and needed to say, and let go of my fear/worry of how H would react. I spoke up for myself, and everything is on the table about what I know and how I feel about it. It feels so darn good.

How long did this take? Nearly three years. H started mooning over LW in February of 2006, he bombed me in May 2006, and I feel like I have the opportunity to really let go and really move forward in March 2009. In the process, I've learned to be brave and honest and authentic. That's pretty darn good.

SD

[theotherhalf]

keep your eyes wide open, and be very careful SDG. Been there done that...

Good luck and lots of prayers.
TOH