Chazz, I don't believe I've posted to your thread before -- interesting title.
Where is God...?
Short answer (just to get it out there): He is right there suffering right along with you.
Long answer: I truly understand a lot of where you're coming from. But as I read your words I hear the echo of a person I once was long, long ago. So much cynicism and contempt for the Church, professing an utter disdain for "Organized Religion".
I might be what you call one of those "lifers", having been born and raised in a family steeped in Christian faith. As such it was part of the culture I grew up with and thus part of the backdrop to which life's other experiences played out. I was born again at age thirteen after a very emotional revival, much to the surprise (interestingly) and delight of my parents.
But then soon after I entered college I became greatly disillusioned with "Organized Religion". The conservative values I had grown up with and continued to agree with came at odds with some of the political dealings at the top of my denomination. I was shocked to find out that my own church and its offerings were being (ab)used by the World Council of Churches to fund Marxist-Leninist revolutions in the Third World. I listened intently as my embarrassed local minister struggled to find word to explain the scandal at the top of the church hierarchy, that they had allowed the wolves into the fold, but seemed powerless to assure us they would be expelled. I had a falling out with religious institutions and became acutely cynical of evangelicals and other high-profile religious leaders.
But all the while I still held my faith in God. To this day I refuse to hold Him accountable for the sins of Man. I can believe in God, in His son Jesus Christ and in the Bible and easily reconcile that against the failures of mankind, even in the areas of religion.
I hear your own words of cynicism and my heart goes out to you. We are all sinners, Chazz, every last one of us. We all put Jesus on that cross, each and every one of us, including even the most pious of saints. And yet I sense you somehow expect so very much from the institutions of mankind, when they are all so fallible, even the religious ones. Yes, they are all accountable for any misdeeds and you can be sure they will all be held accountable, but not by you or me. Please don't let their shortcomings be a stumbling block to your own salvation.
I have learned to look upon each church, each group and subgroup of Christ's followers as we are to look upon individuals: by their own merits. Some are good, some not-so-good.
Since my long years of standing outside of the church, I have rejoined my church -- even my own denomination, amazingly to me. And you know who it was, ironically, who helped lead me out of the cold to again enjoy the full warmth of the Holy Spirit I find with others of like faith? None other than my W -- yes, my (now lost) STBXW. Do I blame God for her betrayal? No, she has her own free will and has exercised it, though for ill. I am thankful at the least that she did get me to atend church again, to regularly partake, as I like to put it, of the eternal waters of the spirit -- in fact, if there was nothing else, aside from my two S's, I would be eternally grateful to her for getting me back on track. But it is a sad, tragic irony.
I can say that I have been very fortunate to have attended some very special and wonderful churches since returning. Even so, I temper that with the realization that these are all mortal people here, even the minsters. The church I attend now is always working hard to extend the hand of generosity to those less fortunate, increasingly in locales around the world, and far from here. Here too, I know they really mean well, but I fear they are overextending themselves afar, when they may not really have their eye on tragedies in their own midst. How many in this one congregation are suffering threats to their families from divorce, substance abuse, financial troubles, wayward children and the like, while the church itself presses on with trying to manage and fund missions in distant countries?
But now of days I've learned to bear a bit of compassion for my church and for any such church. I don't really like it, but they're only human, after all, and thus prone to the same myopia we all suffer from, from time to time.
A favorite saying of mine now is that we all tend to forget that the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a country club for saints. We also tend to forget that the clergy are also patients in their own hospital.
A favorite saying of mine now is that we all tend to forget that the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a country club for saints. We also tend to forget that the clergy are also patients in their own hospital.
Time limits my response so I will just reply a little on your closing comment.
First off thank you for participating my thread and for your simple honesty and humility I sense in your reply. It is refreshing and encouraging.
There is little you say that I do not feel the same way about. I agree that Churches should be hospitals for sinners vs country clubs for saints. Thanks for the colourful and meaningful analogy.
Perhaps my experience has left me feeling that I have been more around the latter. I dont know and I do not wish to judge. Part of me also feels dumb and a little embarassed for falling for the Corporate Church party lines. Although it would be a natural thing.
As mentioned, I in no way disbelieve the Bible. In fact as life unfolds, I believe it all the more. I just feel frankly alergic to having it presented to me by people and organizations that I am not comfortable with. Perhaps this is Gods way of having me seek him out more directly.
There is a distrust for said individuals and organizations that I also have to work through. Again, I have no right to judge. Yet my discomfort is real. That is my burden. That is my journey to walk through and work through.
I often recall a book I read in part, "The Jesus I never Knew" by Philip Yancey. He sought to de-romanticize Jesus as he had been portrayed to us through art, literature, and much of historical artistic license.
I have not yet heard a rational person deny that Jesus was the most influential man ever to walk the earth. Even others of other faiths tend to believe this. I personally believe his is far more than an influential man. I do believe he was God incarnate and that he died for the sins of the world. I do accept that I am one of the people for whom he died.
Some of the details of how salvation works are still a mystery to me. yet I am content to leave that for another day.
So be relieved that I do indeed believe. I am just at this stage uncomfortable with the cutlure in which much of (not all) of western civilized "Christianity" functions. And I am not fully sure why.
So I hope to dialogue further. I will look you up on the threads. Check back with me... I have a few things more I would like to comment on and welcome your replies and perspectives.
Long answer: I truly understand a lot of where you're coming from. But as I read your words I hear the echo of a person I once was long, long ago. So much cynicism and contempt for the Church, professing an utter disdain for "Organized Religion".
NoCode... some further reflections on another part of your reply....
In my experience, groups of people working on a common goal or for a common purpose run the risk of deviation from their intended purpose. Often, where the perpetuation of the organization itself (I will refer to descriptively as "the machine") begins to overtake the simple carrying out of the original intended purpose.
Issues of money, prestige, and pride are common elements that seem to be waiting to take root and begin the overtaking. Whether the group of people are organized to be a company, team, volounteer group, family, church, or any other collection of people with a common purpose, all seem to be suseptible to this type of variance.... dare we even use the word "corruption"?
Is this not the case with many churches. Interestingly, I was sharing with my current wife a short while ago, my experiences as a young Christian being a new believer and member of an exciting new church. The church was headed by a volounteer pastor who made his living in his non-pastoral career. This was a man of impecable integrity with talents galore. With a heart to reach and serve people. He supported the church financially from his outside earnings. Church meetings were in a rented auditorium. Members all pitched in and set up for Sunday and mid week meetings. Home group meetings sprung up all over our area. And the church grew amazingly.
We had a close kinship with each other and there was a level of simple honesty in our church group. Many people were reached and lives became better by applying what we all learned together.
Now fast forward 20 years. The pastor is now on salary... as is his wife and some of his now adult kids and their spouses. While non family members are asked to volounteer to serve doing similar jobs for free that the pastors family is paid to do. The building purchased mainly by donations of the faithful members is titled to the pastor. The pastor has a TV show that consumes a large portion of the donation and tithe budget. The pastor and his family are frequently away at speaking engagements internationally.
Multitudes of competent and sincere believers have gone through the church. The progression usually is showing up, getting involved, finding that the Pastor has full control of everything and makes decisions often in favour of his family, feel discouraged, often get used for their talents, then leave.
Many of the early married couple members are now divorced. Many kids of the early generations are not living Christian lives and have deviated to drugs. There are numerous pregnancies out of marriage and single parenthood. There are affairs and betrayals of every description. Self serving business people market shamelessly within the congregation. One ripped a bunch of the members off in an investment scam and is serving at least 10 years.
My point is not to criticize. For I am one of the now-divorced members and a recovering drug and alcohol addict. Which I did not start even using drugs/booze until the past few years.
So what are my points?
Well first off... organizations of people seem to be poised to eventually become corrupt and deviate from their original intended purpose.
If the organized north american church is supposed to be God's people who study and live in the keys to the universe and life, how is it then that we are indistinguishable from any other collection of people in our culture by virtue of our tendancy toward corruption? Shouldnt we be just a little bit better? I am not looking for perfection here. I just see very little distinction.
Christians are not alone... please do not think I am just picking on us. If the movie "X" on famed Muslim social revolutionary, Malcolm X is an accurate portrayaly, their organization suffered the same type of corruption. What about other religious groups? I dont think any are imune.. Yet we claim to have some sorts of higher understandings?
So again, if religious organizations have a connection to God, how is it that we become corrupt indistinguishably from other organizations? No different than a government or any other grouping of people. Corruption almost always sets in. I do not mean the incidious evil corruption. I simply mean diversion from original purpose and issues of pride, power, fame, and/or money overtake or intertwine in the organzation.
To me, these organizations cease ot be relevant and effective in their intended purpose because they become distracted or preoccupied with issues of pride or perpetuation of the machine.
I want to know God better. I want to connect with God. I want to know Jesus on the level that I once felt I did. I too had a born again experience. It was early in my adult life in the most unlikely of circumstances and it was an experience that I could not and still can not deny.
Compare this simple closeness to the complex quagmire of a modern church, and thus you have my dilema. I felt my initial experience with God drew me to fellowship with likeminded people. Yet my many experiences with likeminded people always have ended up in corrupt organizations.
My search and longing is for something different. Surely there must be. Perhaps "something different" describes the early beginnings of movements like The Alpha Course a few years ago, or the Vineyard Church in the 70s, or the Pentecostal church at the turn of the century or the Lutheran Church hundreds of years ago.
And my relevance to this Divorce community is that my church experience where it once helped build strong marriages... in the end could not help those of us whose marriages fell apart. So what happened? Where did we miss it?
I guess I am saying I am disappointed. I guess I am feeling foolish for being a part of a church that taught families how to be strong.... only to end up living in what feels like the most striking contradiction to what I once lived and believed. And yes, I guess I dont trust the people I once did and that is always a tough thing to come to grips with.
I want to know God and be in community with other believers without going down the corruption pathway. I am affraid to buy into someone else's self serving agenda disguised as "ministry".
This is the paradox... we need community... we need fellowship... but our organizations of people so frequently self destruct. An not usually quickly. Usually slowly and painfully. Like the frog in the pot of hot water.
Ok.... this has gone on and on and on. But in doing so, I am becoming clearer in my own understanding of the issue I wrestle with. I want fellowship but I do not trust it. I want God but feel challenges in being in his community.
I am not affraid of this stage of my life. I feel I am seeking as honestly as possible and in doing so, there really is nothing to fear. But I am uncomfortable, uneasy, dissatisfied.
I guess I am saying I am disappointed. I guess I am feeling foolish for being a part of a church that taught families how to be strong.... only to end up living in what feels like the most striking contradiction to what I once lived and believed. And yes, I guess I dont trust the people I once did and that is always a tough thing to come to grips with.
Chazz,
You make some very good points. I agree with most of them.
I do sense a lack of authenticity I felt it back in the day with out "informal" Saturday night gatherings. I need to get of my a$$ and seek out a group like that one.
As for trust in people, I honestly have next to zero. Of course this was greatly impacted by my experience with my exW. That will probably take a long time to get over.....
Take Care,
RMG
"The bad things in life open your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before." from "Good Will Hunting"
RMG... when I look back on my posts and see how long I have been posting on this topic... it surprises even me to see how impacting these church experiences were. And how long I have been seeking a reconciliation of the events and the discomfort I feel.
I know I will get there.... it simply feels like a long journey. Thanks for joining me along the way.
RMG... when I look back on my posts and see how long I have been posting on this topic... it surprises even me to see how impacting these church experiences were. And how long I have been seeking a reconciliation of the events and the discomfort I feel.
I know I will get there.... it simply feels like a long journey. Thanks for joining me along the way.
Ciao.
Chas
Chazz,
I am right there with you..... I do not know if I will ever reconcile the events and the discomfort..... Right now, that is okay.... It is truly a process...
I thank God you are here walking with us......
Take Care,
RMG
Last edited by RMG77739; 11/05/0803:36 AM.
"The bad things in life open your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before." from "Good Will Hunting"
I believe it was Billy Graham who said (or something to the effect of), "A boat doesn't sink because it is in the water; it sinks because the water gets into it."
He used this in an analogy to explain how Christians tend to fail to live their lives as they should. He went on to say, "We don't fail to produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit because we live in a sea of corruption; we fail because the sea of corruption has gotten into us." In other words, we fail not because we live in this world, but because this world has gotten into us
I would add that because this can and does happen to individual believers, even to the most devout of clergy, this analogy holds true for an entire church or a religious denomination as well. The Church / Individual, as the boat, is meant to go out into the waters of the World. And all is as it should be: the boat can participate and interact with the waves and the currents of the World, in meaningful harmony -- so long as the boat keeps the waters out. But once the boat allows the waters to enter it, it ceases to be.
The problem I (and many others) see with the Church of today is that it tries too hard to be all things to all people -- such that it loses its very purpose. Too often in today's world you hear Christian leaders fall for the thinking that the Church and the Faith needs to change to accomodate so-called modern issues, lest it become "out-dated". Sadly this often includes accomodating ideas and beliefs that are at direct odds with the core tenets of our faith.
That, I beleive, is the real problem with Religion today. I used to think rigidity of doctrine was what was causing the faith to stray from its purpose, but instead that is really only used as a means of proposing it be "modernized". Of course, there is a balance, and that balance is Christ Himself.
I once opposed Fundamentalism as stridently as Liberation Theology and so-called "Christian Socialism". I considered Leftists and and Right-wing extremists just as wrong as the other for twisting the purposes of God to their own petty ends. Whether they are conscious of it or not, the scandals and betrayals of faith, the disllusionment they foment in the lives of fledgling and other precarious believers, all serve the purposes of the Enemy. Likewise, the indiscretions of local leaders could be and have been just as damaging.
I have been the cynic among cynics for a great portion of my life, and I lapse into it all too easily even now. You won't hear my argue against you when you castigate the institutions of Man. Even religion of any faith is subject to moral entropy. I don't hold out a lot of long-term hope in any assemblage of human beings, especially where they stray from God's word.
Still, we are born into this sinful world with all its ills on every front -- and we have to play the hand we are dealt. God has taught me -- often in not quite so subtle ways -- that I am not allowed to simply cop-out on my fellow humans, like I did for over ten years. Instead He has shown me that I can indeed find meaningful fellowship with others of like faith and convictions -- and unsurprisingly, I find that more often in a Church setting than as not. The difference now is that I have been forced to learn patience for my fellow beleivers because we all struggle with the difficulties and temptations this life throws at us. No one, not even the most faithful, is immune to being subject to such distractions and diversions away from God's purposes. In fact, the Enemy makes Christians the primary target -- the closer your walk with God, the more the Enemy concentrates his fire.
But I truly believe that God wants us to continue to try to have communion with others. And for all it's ills, the Church is the first line of defence for believers to congregate and to rally around. I concede that it is not the only such front however.
When my WAW betrayed me and abandoned our M, I found my "boat" capsized. I got lost in the last few years leading up to this catastrophe, having sacrificed time with my spouse, my family and with my Lord to hold onto a thankless career. Frankly, I had allowed a dangerous amount of water into my boat by becoming so preoccupied with the things of this world rather than the things of Christ.
So, after my W left, having scuttled the marital union on the reef of infidelity, I found myself struggling to survive tsunami-sized waves in the midst of a great hurricane. This has been worse than anything I could have ever imagined. And yet instead of drowning, I found myself bouyed by the Holy Spirit. I somehow found God's grace was still there for me, and He wanted me to cling to Him as I weather out this storm and any to come. It hasn't been easy, but it I am continually amazed at how Providence has kept me afloat, despite the odds.
He led me to so many people who have helped me along the way. My C, my DivorceCare group, the friends I've made in church and various other support groups, this forum -- all have been a blessing. I'm not perfect by any stretch -- no way. I still have a long, difficult road ahead of me. I still feel the pangs of depression grasping to pull me down, and I get frustrated sometimes at the failings of my neighbor. But unlike in times past, I feel a great deal more compassion for my fellow man, knowing they too are struggling as hard as they can.
NoCode.... you give much compelling to reply to and ponder over. Dare I say you are as verbose as I? Not that it is a problem.... I just enjoy recognizing this similarity.
Two of your points stand out the most to me...
Quote:
The problem I (and many others) see with the Church of today is that it tries too hard to be all things to all people -- such that it loses its very purpose. Too often in today's world you hear Christian leaders fall for the thinking that the Church and the Faith needs to change to accomodate so-called modern issues, lest it become "out-dated". Sadly this often includes accomodating ideas and beliefs that are at direct odds with the core tenets of our faith.
You put this well. I concur with this observation. In attempting to do too many things, the Church perhaps has diverted from its primary purpose and thus become corrupt. This would be a natural phenomenon and describes corruption of any purpose. Spreading ones self too thin. I did this in my marriage too... which of course is a fellowship of individuals that started with a primary purpose and later become corrupted. So the phenomenon is indeed commonplace.
I belong to a fellowship that abides by 12 hard-won traditions. One of which is...
"We have no opinion on outside issues, hence our name ought never be drawn into public controversy".
Another of which is...
"We ought never endorse, finance, or lend our name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose".
These plus 10 other simple principles keep us focused and have caused our organization to spread worldwide in just over 70 years. Our founder, who refused to be held in esteem... having refused the pulizer or nobel prize and refused to be Time Magazine's man of the year so he could remain simply another member with no more status than any other, never accepted a penny for his efforts.
The organization is amazingly effective and meets multiple times per day in virtually every city in the western world. It has achieved what centuries of medicince, science and religion could not. It got alcoholics sober.
I am talking of course of AA. Which of course was founded by devout Christians and uses Biblical principles. So your observation about churches taking on too many outside issues really rings home to me. Thanks for making the connection.
In this fellowship, I have found my current connection and expression of my faith. It has been fabulously healing. It has proven the Bible truer to me than any other experience in my life.
Yet, I am sure my threads and dialogue indicate that I am at a stage where I want something more. Perhaps I have reached a level of healing where I am now ready to add to my spiritual experience. AA does not compete with my Christianity or longing for God. In fact, I feel it has freed me up to seek honestly again.
Quote:
But I truly believe that God wants us to continue to try to have communion with others. And for all it's ills, the Church is the first line of defence for believers to congregate and to rally around. I concede that it is not the only such front however.
I agree too. I feel I have reacted and thrown the Baby out with the bathwater. Yet, I fellowship with many Christians in my AA community. It does not however feel complete. I quite simply wish to fellowship with simple seeking honest believers who are more interested in truth than conformity.
Who do not try to manufacture answers when they dont have them. Who are not affraid to say, "I honestly dont know". Who are not threatened by those who believe differently. That would be refreshing to me. I am sure it exists. I feel that largely in this dialogue.
So thanks.
BTW... sorry to hear that you are a fellow left-behind. I know how agonizing that was for me. Betrayal too.
I know I will get there.... it simply feels like a long journey. Thanks for joining me along the way.
RMG and Sol ...
I too am please to be on this journey with you, NoCode, Donna, DoDo, and numerous others who have shared dialogue on these threads.
Perhaps this is a stepping stone to whatever is next for us all in our respective lives.
We have a saying in AA....
"One alcoholic helping another is without parallel".
I believe this is true also of us divorced Christians who have also found ourselves uncomfortable with our church experiences. When we hear our story told by someone else who is simply describing his own life.
Nobody can understand another like someone who has been there. And if we can avoid the pitfall of comiserating together, we can help each other journey through our respective circumstances.
In AA, we try to limit the "drunkalogue"... which is essentially the endless telling of war stories of our drinking days. We certainly need to refer to them, however, this needs to be done in the context of how we discovered a way to change and what life is like now.
Similarly, I think if we can avoid church-bashing, which I feel we have mainly avoided doing, we can accept that we similarly went through troubling circumstances and are working our way through them.
Interstingly, when I read the Bible and how God intervened in peoples lives, he more often delivered them THROUGH circumstances rather than FROM circumstances.
Anyway... thanks for keeping the dialogue progressive, honest and caring.
