How am I doing? Need some encouragement......

[Sam1007]

I have been following the threads and posts of those you mentioned. They are excellent help!

I hear you about your C! SOunds like he's just standing there on the sidelines giving you advice that could affect the rest of your life while he's thinking: "Is it lunch time yet?". Kind of funny but then again not funny...

I called my SIL tonight. My W had said that she thought her sister was mad at her after we talked last, so I called her to see if my W had gotten a hold of her and she did. Most of the conversation, she was just telling me stuff she had told my W. I did not say anything about my W and her situation, I just talked about what I am doing, that I am still fully committed, but just had kind of a rough week. I did tell her that I think my W just needs time and space to think it all through, without too much talk.

[sandi2]

Hi Sam, sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner. I wanted to try to reply to some things you said. First of all, what you said about how you and your W could be thinking the same thing and how it sent chills over you.......that is not a bad thing, in fact, I would envy any couple that had that type of bonding. It just sounds as though you both were on the same wave link (as I call it) and thought alike and was like "soul mates".

I still think her drastic physical changes had something to do with her other changes. I forget if you said she had always had a weight problem or not, but if she did and then lost the weight, it is like suddenly becoming a whole new person and she has to kind of discover who that person is. At first, she may really like the attention she receives from men that try to flirt or compliment her, etc. On the other hand, she may be shy and really not know how to handle it b/c she never had to. It is all new to her.......especially if she was overweight in school b/c that just does something to girls. If she came home telling you about particular men that "came on to her", then that was her way of wanting to get your male attention stirred up and maybe if see a little jealously there. You see, I used to say a few things to my H b/c I had never seen one ounce of jealousy in him toward me. But, it always backfired b/c I did not receive the response from him that I wanted. He would act mad at me.........and that wasn't what I wanted.

I think that even she herself is confused about her feelings not coming back. I get the feeling that she does want them to come back, but doesn't know how. Of course, she has never admitted that, it's just a feeling I get from her.

I am sure she is confused about a lot of things right now. She has had like this major "make over" in her personal image and now she is separated from the man she always was in sinc with. You know, I hadn't thought about it, b/c I always thought that would be so great to have that type of R with your S, but perhaps in her case, it assisted in leading her to have that "brotherly" thing and lose a sense of sexual attraction. It is like she thought of you as a wonderful friend and she wanted that a lot, but somewhere lost the desire in the bedroom. Maybe, being separated will help her "miss you" b/c I think that is what needs to happen. She needs to not see you or be able to talk to you. You are detaching and even trying to be dark at times (except where the kids are concerned) and I think that is what you need to do. Hopefully, she will start to miss you a lot.....based on the things she has already said about you not coming by the shop, etc. So, she is taking notice......and that is a good sign. I believe you are really doing a good job by detaching and staying away......and then when you do see her, you treat her politely as you would anybody else, but without any R talks or getting into emotional stuff. So, you are doing great!

Since last year, she has not asked me to do anything at the shop. I get the feeling that she's trying to prove to herself (and to me) that she can take care of things and doesn't need me.

You are probably right about this, but not in the exact sense that you are seeing it. I think she feels she needs to do this on her own b/c it goes back to her self esteem. Most women that have been over weight for most of their teenage and adult years ahave suffered with very low self esteem. Some learned to cover it up pretty good, but they still had it. So, now that she has improved her physical appearance, I think she needs to do this business all by herself to prove to "herself" that she can do it without anybody's help (especially yours, b/c you were the one she always depended on). If she can do this on her own, then her self esteem will be good and hopefully a healthy esteem. That could be when she will start to come around to changing toward you, as well.

Should I call them and ask them not to talk to her anymore about this? I was afraid that if I did that, that they would tell her that too Trying to interfere in her relationship with her parents.

I suppose I need to wait until you tell me about the R between her and the parents. However, unless it is a special circumstance then it would probably be best just to leave it alone. Parents usually don't take the SIL's "advice" about their daughter anyway.....even when they are close, b/c they think they know their child better than anyone and most parents are going to do whatever they want to. But I'll see what you have to say about them later.

Quote:
It is my belief that if a woman's emotional needs are being met that she can even deal with having the physical needs unmet--if she has to.

What do you mean with "if she has to"? Do you mean she could just live a platonic relationship?

Well, at the time I said this, I was really thinking about doing without material things. However, in circumstances where the H has been physically hurt or disabled and cannot make love to her or do other things that he used to do for her........if her emotional needs are met by him, then I think she could handle the difficulty of other things. This is what I tried to tell my son about his M. He is disabled, and it is actually physically painful for him to have sex with his W. But I tried to explain to him (especially after my M problems) that he needed to talk to his wife and assure her of her beauty and talent and everything else. He needed to verbally make love to her and build her self esteem up. Whatever her love language is.....that is what he needed to give her. When her emotional "love bank" is filled, then she can handle the fact that he cannot physically do those other things like get up and go to work and make a living for his family like he wants to. But if he keeps depositing those emotional things into her love bank......she will be okay. He can still hug her and kiss her and hold her and things like that.

I'm not real sure about settling for just a platonic relationship. I kind of feel like that is what I've had to do on a certain level. But my emotional needs are not met, nor never have been, so I don't really know how to answer that part. I didn't really have a platonic relationship in mind when I said what I did b/c I think a woman needs to be in love with the person she is getting the emotional needs met or she eventually will dry up and feel as though she is dead on the inside......or she will go looking for somebody that will fill those needs for her. Now, I am thinking more of a "metal/emotional" need, but a lot of women's LL is physical touch.....and that usually includes making love. So, it would depend on the individual person. Have I made that clear as mud??

The only thing I am unclear of is when do you stop moving away from them when they come closer? When they are "all the way back" and in love or before that? In other words, when do you stop detaching? I was reading below and saw that you should actually never completely stop. I will have to give that some thought!

I have told the story several times about me asking my grandmother on her 60th wedding anniversary if she had any special advice for me. She didn't waste time in telling me that if you want a good marriage....then you never reach a place that you can stop working on it. Can you imagine? 60 years and still having to "work" at it? I think that when a couple has a sepration, and the WAS begins to warm up to the LBS and as you said, "come closer".....then you should repsond to that move. At fist, be careful and take things slowly. It's kind of like wading off into the water instead of plunging off the diving board into the water. In the beginning as she contines to show herself moving closer to you......you continue to respond by also moving toward her. But, if you move too quickly or you see her begin to act in a negative way.....immediately move back away. A lot of LBS are so eager to get back together with the WAS, that they "over kill" their actions (whatever that may be) and it has a negative affect and the WAS begins to back off or react in a negative way. When that happens you do not pursue and try to start talking R again and doing all the mistakes you did the first time......but immediately apply the DB rules. Just detach a little bit until she is ready to warm up toward you. Even after the couple has reconciled and is living together, you still have to keep remembering those DB rules b/c you will be in "piecing your marriage back together" and if you'll read some thread over in that forum here on the board, you will see that it is no easy task. They seem to have a short lived honeymoon period at the beginning, but then some of those old issues begin to show its ugly face again and you have to immediately apply the principles you learned from DB before it gets back into the condition it did before. That is one reason Michelle tells people to improve themselves.....for them...not just to reel in the WAS. B/c after they reconcile, the LBS will stop all the self improvements and the WAS will see that it did not stick and then the same old problems start over. So, we just have to keep working and using the skills we are taught in DB in order to keep a healthy R with out spouse. I hope I am not confusing you more. It is kind of hard to explain some of this.

I have tried that last weekend for the first time after I read your advice on another thread. Not to say that I never take showers! LOL I mean take one just before she comes and shave and put on some aftershave. She did not say anything about it, but who knows, maybe she did notice?

Oh, she noticed! Just b/c she didn't say anything doesn't mean she didn't. I can almost promise you that she did notice how good you smelled. Trust me, it just has an affect on females. The next step is to be sure you are always that way when ever you go out or if you take the kids to her or whatever. Just get into that habit. My son has always done that b/c he took it up from his father (lol) and do you know that I have actually had female clerks in stores tell me how polite, etc. my son is.....and then they will smile and say, "Oh, and he always smells sooooo good!" So, see, all females notice that. My boss, who of course I have never been sexually attracted to at all, wears some type of something scented that just has a real good fresh "clean" smell and I love it (lol). It isn't real stong or too musky, just a fresh clean smell. If it did not appear inappropriate, I would be tempted to ask him what he was wearing that smelled so good......lol. My H has always had the habit of splashing a little after shave or cologne on before he let the house....if he was just going down to the corner store.

I was looking at her sleeping in the car, completely exhausted, passed out... I just get the feeling that she probably can't sleep in her house, constantly thinking about stuff, why she's feeling this way, how come she doesn't feel anything for me when we have such a good time together... I don't know, just a feeling, a vibe I get from her.

In regard to how she was rather underderessed for the concert b/c she left straight from work and she slept on the way back.....I think it is simply b/c she is trying so hard to make her business work and it has her completely worn out. That is not to say she is not thinking about you, Sam. I believe she is going through a transition in her life that she is just going to have to work out a lot of it by herself.......even though you are a part of that stuff she is going to have to work on......most of your part will be to just give her the space and the time she needs to get it all settled in her mind. I know that is very difficult for you.

Well, the thing is that she's not contacting me as much as a couple of weeks ago... I guess it's hurting my ability to maintain a PMA a little, seems a step back, whe other stuff indicates a step forward... I guess it evens it out?

I think you just allowed your hopes to soar a little too high after some positive things that had been said. That is very typical for the LBS to do. It is also very common for the LBS to over analyze every word and deed and that is one thing that makes them nearly have a break down. So, try very hard not to do that. Don't take every word she says and break it down and try to figure out the "meaning" behind it. Don't take every little move.....like when she was going back into the house after the concert, and she stopped as though she almost forgot and was thinking about a kiss. You are placing too high of a price tag on each word and each move she makes. It will drive you crazy if you don't stop doing that. I have seen played over and over again with LBH's (especially) here on the board. I think the men are worse than the women that are the LBS, but maybe that's JMHO.

She's still in pretty bad shape financially, and she told me on the way to the concert that she will have to move into an apartment because it is cheaper. I was just asking questions as to is it nice, where is it, where will the boys sleep and such. Just normal interested friend stuff. Of course, in my head I'm thinking, why the HE!! don't you just move back in!?!? My feeling is that being separated makes it harder for us to reconnect, assuming I can keep the pressure of of her even when living in the same house. On the other hand, us living apart does allow me to freely browse this forum and to be down every once in a a while without her knowing about it... Anyways, it's just been a long LONG time and I hope it's going to get better soon....

A lot of it is her pride. Can't you see that if it were you? Would you move back into your W's house just to have a place to live b/c your business was failing and you could not afford another place to live? Of course you wouldn't! Your pride would stand in your way. You have said that this is something she needs and wants to prove to herself, but you are looking at it as if she just needs to come back home and all her problems would be solved. That is b/c your heart is talking there. You are just want her to come home!

I am just trying to let her do what she thinks will work for her. I mean, from the start of this, she has always maintained that she does want to work it out, but just doesn't know how. The separation (moving out) was her idea and she said that she thought that that would work.

So, now you are thinking with your head. Remember one thing.....and that is if her business fails.....that will be very hard on her pride and self esteem. Think how you would feel as a man if your business failed. Since I don't know her personally, I don't know how she may respond to that. She may be like a hurt animal that wants to go hide and lick her wounds or she may go into a deep depression b/c she feels like 2 marriages have failed and now her dream business failed. I know what you are hoping she will do. You are hoping she will go running into your arms. That could happen, but please, do not hold your breath and don't be too let down if it doesn't. Remember, pride controls a lot of things that we do. If she is the type of woman that wants a man to rescue her......then she may go to you, but otherwise, she probably won't. Just be prepared for anything and do not allow your emotions or anger to get the best of you if she doesn't do what you think she should. That would ruin everything. If the business fails, do be kind to her.....as a friend, but I would suggest that you do not say anything to her about moving back home. Are you listening to me now? I know this has been a long post, but you need to really listen hear and don't fall asleep on me. You are already tempted to ask her just to move back home instead of getting a cheaper apartment......don't do it. She chose to move out on her own......she needs to "want" to come back home to you. I would not offer to let her come back to the house even as platonic friend R. If she asks if she can do that......and that is what you really want.....then that is your decision, but be warned.....don't expect her feelings for you to be changed just b/c she needs a place to stay. It would be better if she wanted to return as your wife and not just as a friend.

Okay, long post....but had a lot to catch up on.

Take care,
Sandi

[Sam1007]

Thanks Sandi for checking in again and giving me so much good advice!!

I still think her drastic physical changes had something to do with her other changes. I forget if you said she had always had a weight problem or not, but if she did and then lost the weight, it is like suddenly becoming a whole new person and she has to kind of discover who that person is.

She wasn't overweight in high school or when she got married the first time. She gained a lot of weight when she was pregnant with my stepson. SHe had gestational diabetes and she never lost any of the "baby" weight. She probably gained another 20 or 30lbs over the years with me. The thing is, even though I thought that she looked better in her high school pictures for example, I have always been attracted to her. The thing that did bother me a little bit over the years is the fact that she saw herself as not pretty and overweight. It's like she couldn't understand how I could be attracted to her, but I was. The result was that when we ML, we pretty much always did the same thing. That is also my fault, for not coming up with new things. I think she just grew tired of doing it the same way and she wasn't getting out of it what she wanted, so it probably became a chore more than anyhting else.
However, I was coming out of my depression somewhere in August/September and saw her in a new light. She had probably lost about 30lbs by then, and I do think it may have helped "snapping" me out of it. The result was that I was just all over her, as I just awakened. At first, I think she did enjoy my attention, but pretty quickly, she became more distant and it felt wrong to me. That's when the bomb hit, she told me that she had been unhappy for a couple of years and that she loved me tremendously, but she was not IN love with me anymore, she thought with my lack of interest in her, it was only a matter of time before I would leave, so she grieved over that and got over it (all without telling me a thing). And now that I am completely head over heels with her again, her feelings couldn't be turned back on like a light switch (like my feelings). She also said that she thought it was a weird coincidence that I became so interested in her all of a sudden now that she's lost weight. I have given this a lot of thought, and I do believe it helped me snap out of it, but I am certain that I have always loved her very much. Having said that, it does kind of wear on you when your W keeps asking you how you can be attracted to her (being overweight and not pretty = her words, she always said she was OK, i.e. not ugly). I always KNEW she would feel a lot better if she lost weight, but I couldn't push it too hard, because then I would sound like I was confirming her (untrue) thoughts. Now that she HAS lost the weight, it feels like she doesn't trust the feelings I have always had for her. The bomb hit extra hard because it felt like it hit right when everything started to come together!

If she came home telling you about particular men that "came on to her", then that was her way of wanting to get your male attention stirred up and maybe if see a little jealously there.

This was early this year and late last year, all after the bomb. And I did get jealous.

Hopefully, she will start to miss you a lot.....based on the things she has already said about you not coming by the shop, etc. So, she is taking notice......and that is a good sign. I believe you are really doing a good job by detaching and staying away......and then when you do see her, you treat her politely as you would anybody else, but without any R talks or getting into emotional stuff. So, you are doing great!

I am just not sure about the shop thing. That was the #1 thing she said (last year) was bothering her: that I was not supportive of the shop. However, I have TONS of things in there to build it up. I am the one that built pretty much everything in there, so she sees all the stuff I have done every time she's in there. So that's not true. When we had a R talk (started by her BTW...) somehow we came onto the subject of the shop and I told her all the things I had done in there. The she asks me, why are you telling me all that? And I said that she had told me I was unsupportive and she asked: When did I say that? The(surprised) I said last year in one of your long emails, that was #1 thing you told me bothered you about me.
That just tells me how confused she is.

If she can do this on her own, then her self esteem will be good and hopefully a healthy esteem. That could be when she will start to come around to changing toward you, as well.

I REALLY do hope so!!! Both the success of the shop AND the changing toward me!

I suppose I need to wait until you tell me about the R between her and the parents.

Well, she's always been the scapegoat basically at home. My SIL, the yougest one, has always been the favorite, by a mile!! I had a conversation with a good friend of mine that works with my W and he brought up a good point. She seems to be constantly trying to gain recognition/approval from her parents by telling them the things she does, the things she achieved, etc, but they are just not impressed. My sister who is a kind of therapist (helps families deal with children with learning disabilities) has told me (and my W) that people will almost always try to "please" their parents, to which my W said that she has given up on that a LOOOONG time ago. But her actions say otherwise: she keeps inviting them over for dinner even though they cancel half the time, she calls them all the time, they don't call her, they do not come over to see the shop. My friend was saying that maybe she can't let the business fail, or it will (once again) confirm her parents opinions. So she's throwing everything at it that she has. Now that I write this, I am not sure how I fit in there, but maybe it triggers some thoughts in your mind?

Oh, she noticed! Just b/c she didn't say anything doesn't mean she didn't. I can almost promise you that she did notice how good you smelled. Trust me, it just has an affect on females.

It certainly can't hurt, so I am going to keep doing it. I do always make sure I look good whenever I know I will see her. Although she never tells me anything.

Don't take every word she says and break it down and try to figure out the "meaning" behind it..... It will drive you crazy if you don't stop doing that.

I know. I am trying hard not to get my hopes up about anything, by just hoping for some really small gesture/baby step. That way, most of the time, anything she does goes beyond what I expected.

I would not offer to let her come back to the house even as platonic friend R.... she needs to "want" to come back home to you

That is exactly what I told her when she said: "You wouldn't want me to move back in as a roommate, now would you? You want me to move back in as a wife." I told her that I want her to "want" to move back in.

You were mentioning in a previous post in here that ther are 2 ways to approach this: be the best friend ever, or completely drop the rope. I thought about that for a while, but I think in my case the James Bond approach might be best LOL :), which I see as sort of combining both. Only a hint of pursuing every once in a while when we see eachother, with periods of no contact in between, to make her wonder a little bit and, hopefully, miss me/my company.

Thanks for all your help Sandi, I do appreciate it immensely!

[sandi2]

James Bond, huh. Okay, let me know how it turns out. Should be interesting. Why do men chose James Bond over Rhett Butler???





Take care,
Sandi

[Joe]

Sam and S2,

Ha, ha! The guys choose James S2 because he has an awesome car and a laser watch!!

Your doing a great job Sam, keep up the good work. Way better then me.

S2, what happened to your thread? Are you starting another? I need a good dose of advice from you. Maybe Ill just go back in time and read.....

Keep in touch you 2.

Joe

[Sam1007]

James Bond, huh. Okay, let me know how it turns out. Should be interesting. Why do men chose James Bond over Rhett Butler???
Take care,
Sandi

It's just a name... LOL. I know I am completely uneducated, but I have not seen Gone with the Wind or Rhett Butler
But do you see anything wrong with this approach? Think it may work? I don't think going completely dark and dropping the rope will make things better because she said her feelings for me have changed because of me not giving her enough attention, so giving her all my attention would be a 180 for me. On the other hand, I don't want to be pursuing.... It is such a fine line to walk.... Does this make sense at all???

Any thoughts about her R with her parents?
Thanks Sandi and Joe for checking in on me!!

[Joe]

Sam,

Rent and watch Gone with the wind!

About the parents. I would have to say to just be yourself. Be courteous and polite as you always probably have been BUT avoid any R talk with them.

For myself, this is a touchy subject because when my W and I get through this, (Notice I said "WHEN"), then thats when my second major battle will begin, with my ILs. My w's parents have pretty much dropped me off a cliff. Same goes for my 2 BILs. I havent heard or spoke to my FIL or BILs since my D7's b-day on Canada Day back on July 1st. Actually, it was the week before July 1st in June that I last talked to them. And they acted fake, like nothing was wrong. I have a BIL that lives 3 mins away from my front door, and that includes parking the car! (We would drive if its raining!!) I have seen my MIL twice, because she has taken my W on 2 trips and so she spent the night before they would leave at our house. And she pretty much ignored me. And these people called me their son for 12 years. (We've been married 13, but Im not counting this year)

After my w dropped the bomb, I went to talk with them and I could see their disappointment in me because I had screwed up and hurt their daughter. But the only thing they told me was that it was best I pack my stuff up and move out of the house. Thanks alot. I can totally accept that they would and should be mad at me. But to send the message loud and clear that they dont support our M??? That its ok to tell my girls that if you have a major fight, to just run away from the problem and not fix it?? BS!! And I called these people Mom and Dad?? To be honest Sam, Im shocked at their approach to this. OOOOHHH honey, just leave them alone, dont get involved.... I really, really wish they would at least have the balls to say fix it- or do your best to get to the bottom of things and keep your m. Be mad for a while, send him (me) a clear message.

So my advice would to you is that if they still are in contact with you, just keep being yourself. Be strong, show them your changes and have confidence. Its funny that I can tell you this, because it is what I lack the most - confidence. But I am also having a tough week. I just told you not to talk with them about the r. But I also hope that they would want to see you and your w fix and make your m as strong as hell. I just dont get that message from my ILs. It makes me have to wonder just how much they totally accepted me into their family. If I was truly loved and accepted by them, no matter what Ive done or did in the past, and they KNOW how sorry I am for what I did to my W, why wouldnt they be encouraging her to stand up for herself. Find that strong voice that says "I will not tolerate anymore of your crap! So if you and I dont get help to fix whats wrong then we are done!"

I fully understand that where we are now is a result of my w finding her inner voice. She just hasnt learned how to use it yet. She still keeps things bottled up in her and refuses to talk to me about us. I am not going to bring it up either, it gets me no where and it is one of my 180s. But I hate to see her struggling because I just know that she wants to end us, but for some reason, wants to keep our r in limbo land. Yeah, I'm just slightly bitter.

Sorry for hijacking your thread and venting.

Joe

[Sam1007]

Joe,

You're not hijacking!! Actually... you are... but that's totally OK!!! LOL

Anyways, my IL's are the excat opposite of yours. They never seemed to care for us (my W and I) too much. Like I said earlier, my SIL the youngest has always been the favorite. I actually see a small, small part of the reason my W and I are in this sitch as their fault! They have NEVER ever watched our boys for us, not even a couple of hours to go watch a movie or something, let alone overnight, so my W and I could go on a short trip together!! My W and I have been on one vacation together (w/o kids) since the boys were born, ONE!! My parents live overseas and they came over here and stayed in our house with the kids so that we could have some time alone.... And her parents live 40min from here!

So I never felt that close to them. NOW, they tell me that they don't understand their own daughter and that they think I am a great husband and father, they don't see anything wrong with me and she should just "snap" out of it, etc... I have told them some things that I know I have done wrong or could have done better, but their reaction to that is one of: we all have our character flaws but that's no reason to completely end the R.

So you see? Sounds completely the opposite! But I am convinced of the advice given here time and time again: the IL's better stay out of it, whoever's side they say they are on!

Had to laugh, when you said: WHEN we get back together, not IF. That is what I say to myself all the time: WHEN we get back together, we will have a R that will be based on such a profound understanding of each other (compared to before all of this) it's TOTALLY worth it!

Keep the faith!

[sandi2]

Hey Sam, how are you (James Bond) doing these days? I know one man here on the board who had a success story and that was his character he looked up to as sort of an inspiration to help him when he felt weak. So, what ever works!

Okay, to reply to a couple of things here:

And now that I am completely head over heels with her again, her feelings couldn't be turned back on like a light switch (like my feelings). She also said that she thought it was a weird coincidence that I became so interested in her all of a sudden now that she's lost weight. I have given this a lot of thought, and I do believe it helped me snap out of it, but I am certain that I have always loved her very much.

Dr. James Dobson, I think, was the one that use to say that men were like microwaves and women were more like crockpots when it came to getting turned on or interested or their feeling revived.....whatever you want to refer to....it all is about the same as far as how we react as differences in the sexes.

I can understand your W's POV to a certain extent. My H always told me he would love me if I gained 300 lbs......but he hoped that I didn't. (lol) He too, would always "wake-up" and show a lot of "interest" in me when I lost weight and got to looking good. It is just human nature. I think that is what your W needs to understand. It is very possible to love another person when their physical appearance is not one of a super model. What if she had been very thin and could not gain weight? A lot of women are in that boat! However, it is simply her own low self esteem talking. To her, she thinks her looks should be so disgusting to anybody.....especially a man finding her sexually attractive when she is over weight.....it is just beyound her comprehension. It is how she sees herself when she looks in the mirror. Those are her feelings talking out loud. So, she gets in an argument with you, but really she is either wanting you to convince her that she is wrong about what she has always believed or she is in an argument with herself. I know that may sound a bit confusing with me playing counselor here, but I am talking from my own experinece as my weight was a yo-yo over my M years. She may even have found that as her last excuse to hang on to as a way of trying to justify her feelings toward you now. It gets pretty deep.

I always KNEW she would feel a lot better if she lost weight, but I couldn't push it too hard, because then I would sound like I was confirming her (untrue) thoughts. Now that she HAS lost the weight, it feels like she doesn't trust the feelings I have always had for her. The bomb hit extra hard because it felt like it hit right when everything started to come together!

That is another reason I think she needs counseling for her weight gain and loss issues. For one....after losing the weight and dressing sexy and then she didn't know how she felt about the men coming on to her or exactly how to handle it......that could be rather scary to some women. Some women even hide behind their weight b/c they don't know how to accept a sexy body. That sounds crazy but it is true. It also can be traced back to something that happened in the early years that make them hide behind weight gain. They feel protected in some ways against men b/c they feel they can't possibly be attractive to them if they are over weight. This is why I think your wife feels so strongly about the fact she doesn't believe you could have loved her when she was that way. I think she subconsciously had a "shield" around her and I think it would take a physchologist to get her out of that way of thinking and be able to accept herself as being an attractive person. Also, he/she could help her accept the fact that you actually could/did love her regardless of the weight, but as nature would have it, you responded to her improved body image when she lost weight. But, again, she needs to realize that it is only human nature to respond to positive changes in anyone's appearance or behavior.

It really broke my heart when you told of her R with her family. I never experienced that with my own (thank God), but I did experience it with my in-laws and it was awful. I was always a person pleaser and I wanted so badly to be accepted by them.....especially my MIL. But that was a hopeless case and it took me over 30 years before I finally realized that I might as well give it up b/c it just wasn't going to happen. When I was finally able to do that, then in a way, it set me free and I did not feel that I had to constantly "prove" myself any longer. I hope your W can reach that point before I did. You can actually become a prisoner to a situation like that.

Back to the "shop thing". I would just show her support when you do go by there or talk to her over the phone or whatever. Ask enough questions to let her know that you are interested, but not prying into her business to see if she is a sinking ship yet.

Sam, I know you men get so tired of hearing us say that it takes a very long time. But it does take a looooong time for that crockpot to start cooking. You just have to be patient and keep showing her your best side. It takes a woman a long time to get back romantic feelings when they are gone. It is not impossible (I hope), but it does take a long time. My hope is based on the story of my own parents and a time my mother went through with my dad. She almost lost complete respect and desire for him b/c of the circumstances they were going through at the time. It was the lowest point of their lives. I remember that time very well. My mother's story is that she mentally reached the realization that she could live her life out in total misery or she could begin to "act as if" she was happy and that she admired her husband and was in love with him. That is what she did......and finally, she reached a point that she was not longer acting as if......b/c it was true feelings. She put her "will" into place and then the feelings followed. Dr. Gary Smalley teaches this and I believe it b/c I saw it happen with her. But, I know by myself that it is the hardest thing I think I have ever done. However, we are creeping along and we will get there.......I am one of thos old crockpots that really take a long time (lol).

Well, I need to get in bed, so you take care and I'll check in on you later.

Sandi

[Sam1007]

Thank you both for checking in on me! I have some little babysteps I want to record (at least in my mind they are).

-We have had several very casual and very relaxed conversations on the phone and in person (when she comes and picks up the kids). Just about all kinds of stuff, frustrations with other people, good news, bad news, her health, etc, just like old times. More often than the last month. Feels like we went through a little dip in communication in that regard, but it seems to be coming back, so I am happy about that.

-She called me earlier this week to vent a little about a frustration with a lady at the boys school. She needed someone to talk to and she called me and it makes me feel good!

-She called again today on where to get some work done on her car. I always used to take care of that, but at least she's not refusing to ask for my help and trying to do everything on her own.

Just wanted to write them down so that I can refer to them and remember them. My mind wanders off into very negative thoughts SOOO quickly, gotta keep my PMA!!!!

Hey Sam, how are you (James Bond) doing these days? I know one man here on the board who had a success story and that was his character he looked up to as sort of an inspiration to help him when he felt weak. So, what ever works!

Well, I think the character thing is not so much what i want to play, but more of an easy way to remember some guidelines to establish consistent behaviour. A lot of times, I have trouble deciding how I should react to something she says or does and then I can sort of think, what would James Bond do? The main idea I get from this is that I will show her unconditional love (expressed in a non-pressuring DB-friendly way of course!), compassion, and a deep friendship when she comes to me, but I will not physically help her with her problems while she's out on her own. For example, I did not help her move out or move to another apartment. When she comes and shares all these things, I will give her my opinion and advice, but I, personally, won't help with that. Thinking of a character like that to help make decisions on how to respond to her may sound crazy, but it seems to help me.

However, it is simply her own low self esteem talking. To her, she thinks her looks should be so disgusting to anybody.....especially a man finding her sexually attractive when she is over weight.....it is just beyound her comprehension. It is how she sees herself when she looks in the mirror. Those are her feelings talking out loud.

Those are the feelings I have been trying to get her out of for years!! LONG Before the bomb hit. NOW she does see herself as looking better (she still says she's OK, not looking GREAT, like I think she does!), so it's only normal for her (in her mindset) to think that her change in appearance was the ONLY reason for me to "wake up".

So, she gets in an argument with you, but really she is either wanting you to convince her that she is wrong about what she has always believed or she is in an argument with herself.

I have been trying to convince her that she is wrong about that, for years, but it seems her feeling that I couldn't possibly be attracted to her (before she lost the weight) just doesn't want to let go. I don't think this is something I can even hope to achieve by my actions or words. She will need to realize this on her own. I will however continue to express my words of affirmation and tell her when I think she looks good (which is pretty much every time I see her). I also tell her why I think she looks good, like today, she had some well-fitting jeans on and I told her she looks good in them. She said that they were too large and she needs to get some smaller ones. She does seem to attach a lot of importance to the actual size she's wearing. To me it's just a number, but I am excited that she's excited when she tells me that she has dropped another size.

She may even have found that as her last excuse to hang on to as a way of trying to justify her feelings toward you now. It gets pretty deep.

That could be! She's not mentioned any of the other things that she brought forward with the bomb since then, except for the one about the "coincidence" of my feelings changing when she lost weight. And I have told her that she didn't lose all of that weight overnight, but my attitude did (her words), so how do you explain that?

It also can be traced back to something that happened in the early years that make them hide behind weight gain. They feel protected in some ways against men b/c they feel they can't possibly be attractive to them if they are over weight.

Did you see my post earlier about her having been attacked sexually long time ago? She has expressed the exact thing you are describing to me herself. It could still have an effect.

I think it would take a physchologist to get her out of that way of thinking and be able to accept herself as being an attractive person. Also, he/she could help her accept the fact that you actually could/did love her regardless of the weight, but as nature would have it, you responded to her improved body image when she lost weight. But, again, she needs to realize that it is only human nature to respond to positive changes in anyone's appearance or behavior.

The next time she brings up R talk and says that she's still open to seeing the MC, I might bring this up in my session by myself with the MC. Would it be too much pressure to bring up the MC from my side? She HAS said that she still wants to go see her during last R talk.

When I was finally able to do that, then in a way, it set me free and I did not feel that I had to constantly "prove" myself any longer.

I think she's still very much in that situation. And it's not just the parents. She's very persistent in not wanting to dissappoint anyone. Everyone in the town where her shop is asks her for help and she rarely ever says no, so she's extremely busy all the time. The person she is dissappointing is me and she said she can't stand to see me dissappointed all the time. That was her main reason for moving out. So I am trying VERY hard to not let any dissappointment show and show PMA when she's around.

Ask enough questions to let her know that you are interested, but not prying into her business to see if she is a sinking ship yet.

I think that is the best approach too. That's what I have been doing for the last couple of months.

My mother's story is that she mentally reached the realization that she could live her life out in total misery or she could begin to "act as if" she was happy and that she admired her husband and was in love with him.

My W actually said something along those lines late last year. That maybe she should just pretend that she's still in love with me, just so I could be happy. I told her that I did not want her to be unhappy and she shouldn't PRETEND to be happy when she's not. Instead we should just work together and see how we can make things better.

Thank you both again!
I'm keeping the faith after my babysteps!