Hi there, I started a couple of threads here a while back, but, I live over in Separated. Infidelity is present and I can use some help figuring things out.
W moved out in April to start a "break" from the insanity of 3 kids and from me. She rented a room from a professional guy for 3 months and got involved with one of his friends. She moved to a new place and stayed in the family home for a week or so during which time I drained the cell phone of the text messages etc. I had been running a keyboard logger and after the cell snooping, I accused her of getting pregnant, having an abortion, and screwing around with multiple guys. She denied it all and said that my snooping was the last straw, that was it, we're done. PDT and a few others responded that with that much smoke there was surely fire. Well, the old me that entered into a co-dependent relationship with my W 18 years ago would bear anything and swallow anything to keep the girl.
I've been growing partially due to DBing and because I've been working on me in other areas. Last week, the new me, the one with self-respect who isn't willing to put up with the same crap gained ascendancy. I reorganized the text messages into threaded order and I've read through them several times.
Based on other history and her texts and email and phone conversations etc., I believe that my W has had sex with 5 other men including possibly before moving out. Right now, it looks like she has one primary OM and another that she sees a couple of times a month or less and one that she is dodging, but, doesn't want to cut off contact with completely.
I don't have solid conclusive proof, aka photographic evidence of naked bodies wrestling in the sheets, but, I'm convinced she is screwing around.
Since the blowup in late July about my snooping, I had quit snooping for a while, but, more importantly, I started really DBing very much a LRT. At our last MC, I had 2 goals, that she would agree to come to MC again and she would not file for D for 6 months. She agreed.
Since then I've seen a couple of very small changes that are heartening. We argued over the phone 3 weeks back, but, it lacked the vitriol and rancor of previous fights. Then, she left me a voice mail referring to the shot record requests for the kids for school and said "you got the papers when we were at the pediatricians, I'd be amazed if, I'd be great if you'd sent those in already, but, if not we really need to get them sent in." The "I'd be amazed" part is a nicer slam than I'd have gotten a few months ago and then she stopped herself and got more polite. There is no other way to read that except that the negative emotions are draining away. Last week before the holiday weekend, I asked what W was doing as I expected her to be partying with one or another of her OM. She told me that she was planning on taking the kids somewhere fun on Monday and that I could come along if I wanted to or take a break. I got back to her a couple days later and told her that I was planning on going to the Taste of Colorado and that she and the kids were welcome to come with me. We did and it was a great time. In fact, one of her complaints about me has always been how harsh I am with the kids and how often I raise my voice etc. I didn't have any of those behaviors during our outing. She gave me a kiss before leaving, but, it was cold at the start and then warmed up. Lastly, my birthday is in a little over a week and I asked her if she would spend Friday evening and Saturday with me for my birthday. When I asked yesterday, she asked where would we stay, would she stay at the house, and then she suggested that we spend all day Saturday together going on a long hike.
I'm heartened by how much better we are interacting, but, that's not the end of the story. Last night W only worked until 7pm and then I could see she stopped by the liquor store and called OM#1 at 8:30. To help finalize and confirm for myself that she is involved with OM#1. I finally tracked down his address, went over and spent a while going through our van and the cell phone that OM#2 gave her that she left in the car when going into OM#1's house. I'm thinking that they don't know about each other. Oh, I could cause so much drama for my own amusement, but, I doubt it would help me reach my goal. PDT, I know you took a more active position exposing everything to the light of day, but, given the changes I'm seeing, I'm not sure that I want to go there.
Here's where I can use some help. I'm a little concerned about the multiple affairs, it seems quite different and I don't know how to read that. I'm having a very difficult time deciding what to do. I've accepted the infidelity. Part of my struggle is that she's the only woman I've ever been with and I made peace with that a long time ago only now I'm finding that peace shattered and I really don't know how to reconcile that with this infidelity. I'm having a hard time because I want things to work out with my W, but, I'm hurting and lonely and feeling the weight of the responsibility while she is out running around so carefree. I want to cast my responsibilities to the side and party like I'm 22 again. So, it feels like the pain is more than I can bear and yet I can't bear to hurt the kids with the D and I'm afraid to change what seems to be working.
Bah. That's why I'm here, I could use some perspective from some folks here.
Well, you have a big, big problem on your hands. I am going to tell you something that I don't think I have told anyone else before. I agree whole heartly with Puppy about exposing your W's affairs.....all of them and all at the same time and all to one another. Now, Puppy and I have kind of went round and around about this idea of "exposing the WW" but in this case, I'm all for it. The reason is this......your wife has a very serious problem and you can DB your butt off and she is not going to stop what she is doing. She is juggling two or more men at the same time and having a ball at doing it. She is on a "high" like no drug could do for her.....but in the end, it will be her undoing. She is headed for a downward spiral that will end in total dispair if it isn't stopped dead in its tracks and right now. So, don't mess around with the usual advice about how to win your wife back into your good graces, etc. Tell these men what she has done.......and made a fool out of them, and then tell her family.
I only hope that somebody can get her to a professional shrink b/c this woman is in for a really bad time of it. MC is not going to do the trick......I can tell you that. You are wasting your time to even try to talk her into doing that and besides, they are not qualified to do what she needs!
Don't let her one little day of being "nice" fool you too! To her, you just boosted her ego into letting her know that she has you wrapped around her little finger......just like all the other men. She doesn't respect you and she will not love you. In a sense, I think she wanted to see if she could get a "reponse" from you when she kissed you, so it was like a (excuse the expression) notch on her belt. Whatever you do.....don't have sex with her. And, don't be surprised if she doesn't approach you about that very thing. She will want to see if she still has the "power" to string you along like her little puppet. Some women "get off" by thinking they can control men. It doesn't mean she is ready to go back to you or even that she is still in love with you, only that she wants to see if she can still control you. Besides, who knows what she may have picked up by sleeping with these men?
You must take the responsibility here and do what she needs......not what she wants. She needs help or she will continue to hop from one man to the other until she hits rock bottom.......and then, she will likely not want you. The reason is b/c she will kill all of her ability to feel any love or true sexual desire for anyone. It was reading a book about all of this that scared me into seeing what could actually happen to me! She is just beginning, so hopefully, you can stop it before she gets any deeper and causes more damage to herself.
Sorry to be so harsh but somebody has got to get your attention and let you know that you must act quickly and effectively. You must use tough love like never before. And, know this.......she may hate you for the rest of her life for exposing her.....but you may very well save her life. In doing that, you will prove your love for her whether she returns it or not. Can you do that? Do you love her enough to do that for her and take the chance that she could hate you in return? That's a lot to consider for some people, but that is what I think unconditional love truly is all about......loving another person whether they love you back or not.
I find it hard to believe that I am actually telling somebody to do this, but that is how strongly I feel about it. I wish you all of the best. You will need strength like you have never had before and don't allow her to sweet talk you, make promises, beg, plead, or threaten you, in order to make you stop exposing her actions. That is when you will truly need strength. But, I don't think she can stick to her word b/c she is in a addiction that is stronger than her word. Puppy can help guide you with the steps you need to take.....as he has been through the process.
I hope you will continue to come here and post. You may find others that disagree with what I've said and in the end, it is your decision in how you deal with your W. I just don't see anything working except very tough love.
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
If you're only "a little concerned" about her multiple affairs, then there's not much we can do to help you. We cannot manufacture, for you, what ought to be your own healthy amount of self-protection and righteous indignation.
I know you don't want to lose her, but let's face it, you've lost her already. She's a serial adulterer, and with the intel you're armed with, the fact that you're doing nothing about it means that you're enabling her.
Time to take a stand, dude. I hope you'll listen to me this time.
PDT, I know you took a more active position exposing everything to the light of day, but, given the changes I'm seeing, I'm not sure that I want to go there.
Forgive me for being frank, Dan, but what "changes are you seeing"?? Your wife is having affairs with multiple men, and lying to you (and presumably, to them) about it all. By "changes," do you mean she's being nice to you?
Define "nice." In my book, it doesn't mean screwing around on me. You need to define "changes" as being her movement AWAY from other men, and back toward your marriage. I see no evidence of that yet, at all.
Hello Sandi and PDT. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my thread. I'm not sure that I need to advice now and I'll explain why.
It's been an intense year/couple of months/couple of weeks. For most of my life I've been trying to fill the hole inside. For 18 years, I've been trying to take from my wife in order to be complete. I no longer need something from her to be complete. I am enough. As I look back at our relationship, I'm struck by how all of our interactions had an underlying drama and high emotional content. It was like living in the midst of a hurricane each of us with an underlying motive, trying to get from the other what we perceived that we needed to be whole and each of us with nothing extra to give.
I've been working on me for a while. I've been growing. Last week, the new me gained ascendancy and I was strong enough to face the information I have and no longer willing to put up with anything and everything to keep the girl. My wife has known subconsciously from very early in our relationship that she is in the power position. I allowed her to define who I was by accepting her definition of what was acceptable behavior.
I have plenty of circumstantial evidence and she denies that there is anything amiss going on. I know that she is unfaithful, but, I need concrete evidence. I need it because there is a part of me that wonders if she is correct and I'm screwing things up. I know I'm not wrong, but, part of me won't believe. I need that evidence so that I can trust myself again. I may also need it as a club to force from my wife a frank honest conversation about where we are and where we are going. At that time, I will give my wife an ultimatum that she can either choose me or a divorce and choosing me means moving back into the family home, working hard on our marriage, individual counseling with my input, complete transparency to me and no further contact with any of her friends that she's made since summer 2007. My estimation of the probability of her choosing me is essentially zero.
I see no benefit in exposing her affairs to everyone. She is already judged by her family for her drinking and is thus nearly estranged from them. She spends minimal time with the children and if she notices the changes in our interactions, she undoubtedly attributes the changes to her moving out and her decision to divorce me. My FIL is an alcoholic with a gambling problem. He took his family through bancruptcy twice before my MIL divorced him over his several affairs. Then, his second marriage ended because of his drinking and gambling. He finally quit drinking when diagnosed with pancreatitis and being told to quit or die. I didn't see any difference in his behavior when his relationships fell apart or when his family turned away from him. Like her father, my wife more than most people I know responds very poorly to being pushed. I see nothing to be gained by outing her. Additionally, she is an attractive woman, if the men in her life right now disappeared, she would only go find others. As best I can figure, she is firmly in the middle of a mid-life crisis and except for a few more wrinkles that botox can't fix, she has regressed back to who she was when we met.
I've read her private communications. At times, she experiences guilt about being away from the children and she does know that she needs personal counseling. However, right now the dark side of her personality is in control. The lessening of negative emotions between us is a step forward as that perhaps points toward the possibility that we can parent together amicably. For nearly all of the last 18 years, I was the source of all her problems. I want out of that role. I want her to feel guilty and know that the guilt isn't from me, it's from inside.
I don't hold out hope of saving my marriage right now. I only hope to provide for my children the most stability that I can in the midst of the chaos. I think that if I can help my children to come fully into maturity before they marry and help them to choose wisely their spouses, I'll have given them a wonderful gift.
We should have never married one another. I look at her now and wonder if beyond the 18 years together and the kids, if I met her today and got to know her, would I marry her? She is a woman with low self-esteem who has never learned that she must combine hard work with her talent in order to have success. She is an asthmatic smoker with a drinking problem who struggles with depression and ADD who has all but abandoned her children and is cheating on her husband. It sure doesn't paint a pretty picture when put that way.
I love the good side of her and I hate this side of her. The good times have been very good and the bad times have been very bad. Perhaps at this point, all that is left is to spend peaceful time together doing things with the kids.
Dan, let me say that I know this is so very painful for you to face and to accept. Of course you will always love the "good side" of her....that is who you fell in love with. But, I'm afraid you will see less and less of that person as time goes by.
I don't hold out much hope in her returning to the M under the conditions you have purposed, but it is the only way that I would accept her back if I were in your place. Since you have told about her father and the role model that was set before her growing up, it explain some of her behavior since we do tend to turn out a lot like our parents. However, in the end, we must take responsibility for our own actions. I doubt she is ready to feel guilt for her own wrong doing b/c she has been able to blame you for all her problems over the years and has gotten by with it.
I know this is a harsh statement and I'm not trying to upset you, but I really do not see her being capable of taking care of the children in an environment that they should be exposed to. That is a nice way of saying that she really is not fit to raise them right now and that you should fight for full custody of them. I would not even attempt co-parenting b/c first of all....even though she may have twitches of guilt about the kids, the more she is away from them and getting more involved in her party lifestyle.....the more she will be around them less and less. I have seen this in other stitches and it keeps the H/father so upset all the time b/c co-parenting with an adult acting like this is next to impossible. Giving her visitation rights would only be fair to the children b/c they do need to see their mother.....but they do not need her on a consistant basis while she is living like this. Her influence on them could be very damaging. So, I hope you will consider getting full custody of them. That is the only way you will ensure them of growing up into responsible adults and having much of a future. They need a strong father figure and especially since their mother is bombing out, so I pray you will step up to the plate. You sound like you are ready.
Again, this will take more strength than you have ever needed before, but you sound like a good man and one who is willing to work on himself and to make a good home for his children. It will hurt to have to turn her lose to her own distruction, but you must think of your own future happiness and your family. As I told you before, we don't usually tell somebody right up front that they need to move on unless it really sounds hopeless, but I believe there is better out there for you.
I would call her bluff and if she is really so innocent.....she will do whatever she can to hold her family together. But, I don't think she is.....and neither do you. The truth hurts really bad, and I'm sorry. You will go through a bad time, but you will get better......okay? We have seen this happen many times right here on this bb when a man would think he would die if his W didn't come back home to him, but he discovered that he could move on with his life and he could find peace......and eventually even happiness. So, take care of yourself and don't allow her to run your life any longer. Start calling the shots for you and your children's lives.
Let us know how things go.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi Sandi. I've actually been dealing with drama that would make a decent Hollywood movie for the last year. My heart has been ripped from my chest so many times, I had a zipper installed
You know, the truth hurt really badly when I needed her to make me whole. Last Thursday when that changed was the last time I cried about the situation. I'm not saying that there exists no pain, but, it is so small in comparison that I almost don't notice.
As to her good side versus bad side, that's been something she has not dealt with as long as I've known her. It took me a while to figure out why she was uncomfortable around our social peers. It's because she knows that they wouldn't approve of the kind of party lifestyle that she wanted to have. Frankly, closing down the bar is for young adults and divorced people. She has always had the acceptable responsible persona and the party girl persona. The one is looking for acceptance from Mom, the other love from Dad. Well, that's my pop psych eval anyway.
We've discussed a shared custody where the kids stay put in the family home and the parents switch every week. Given how I've seen her handle the two sides of her personality in the past, I believe that this is doable and in fact would be a very good thing as she might go moonbat crazy on the off weeks, she has a very responsible nature when it is in front of her. I believe that part of the reason for her behavior is that she has no responsibilities and isn't under any scrutiny while she is living on her own. When she has been back to stay with the kids, she is a different person, albeit a person who is waiting for their next fix of validation and supposed life. I'm not completely against having sole custody of the kids, but, I'm having a pretty tough time of things right now.
I hate to say it, but, there is a small part of what is driving this forward toward an ultimatum is that I realized that the kids are hurting now and part of that is because I can't give them my best because the job of providing for the family and caring for the kids and the house and everything else is more than I can handle. On top of that, I have no social life and as selfish as it sounds, I'm sometimes only a few steps away from dumping the kids on their Mom and walking. She's in the middle of her little mid-life crisis, well, I've got my share of that stewing around inside as well. Part of what attracted me to my wife was that she was the social one and she had a large social circle. Well, a couple months ago as part of all my personal growth, I finally threw off the fears that had been holding me back socially my entire life and now I can meet people with ease and I want to have time to be social and I can't do that if I'm taking care of the kids 24x7.
I'm just going to have to take things a bit at a time and see where it ends up. Like I said Sandi, I appreciate your input. I'm reasonably certain that I'm past the worst of the pain and my only hope for building a new relationship with my wife is after a divorce.
I do feel for you, and for your situation. Raising your kids yourself -- with regular visitation from their mother -- would be a huge sacrifice.
I also think it's the right thing to do.
My advice to you has been based on trying to save your marriage. If that's no longer what you're trying to do, you can go ahead and continue to try to appease your wife (and that's how I read your descriptions of your interactions and decision-making with her), but even post-marriage and co-parenting, I don't see where it's going to be best for you and for your kids. "Not making her mad" is not going to necessariliy create real, lasting peace in your family.
In my opinion, your children need to see from you a man of character who's willing to fight for what he believes in, not what will be the easier path, or what won't piss off their mother.
Whichever path you choose to go, you've got some tough years ahead of you. I don't see one path as being significantly less painful than the other.
I'll leave you with this final thought: if the roles were reversed (say, you were messed up, and had a gambling addiction or something) . . . wouldn't you want your wife to fight for you, for your marriage, and for your family?
PDT, I understand what you're saying and I'm going to keep allowing information to inform my decisions and potentially change my direction. I'm not married to a single solution.
If I was messed up and had a problem I would want my wife to fight for me and try and save our marriage and keep our family together. Of course, I would want that. I've supported her through some crazy surreal stuff. Non one who knows the story would ever say that I haven't tried and that I haven't supported her, but, this is too much. This burden is more than I can continue to bear.
I'll think about what you've said with respect to it seeming like appeasement. That is a remnant from my childhood and the way we tried to manage my step-father's mood to stave off his violent tantrums.
Look, do you think that I don't know what a divorce is like? I was on the bad end of two divorces. I'm in survival mode right now. I have nothing to give to the kids. I basically check out when I get home from work. Somehow I manage to keep food in the cupboards and on the table and clean sheets on the bed and that's about it. I'm tired, I'm worn out, and I'm close to breaking under the pressure. It's just me, Atlas with the world on my shoulders. At this point, I'm doing the best that I can and I'm beating myself up enough that I can't fix it without getting a beating here too.
PDT, please don't misunderstand, I appreciate that you've taken the time to lend your thoughts to my situation.
