Feeling Hopeless...

[ann25]

Last night (at about 10:30), i told my H that from now on until we can adjust her sleep schedule (which involves him not just sleep all day in her swing), i'm sleeping when the baby sleeps in the evening after my D's go to bed. I'm too exhausted and it's not safe or healthy. He was mad and tried to make me feel bad about the boxes that need to be unpacked and stuff. how hard it is to chase watch the girls without the house being done. i told him that i'm sorry, but i need some sleep and i don't get any at night, so i need it earlier. I told him exactly how much i've had over the last week (came to about 12 hours.) I also told him that it was his decision to want to watch the girls and if he can't handle it, we could make other arrangements. then i went to sleep until 12 am, when baby woke up and fed her. i helped unpack some then. he didn't talk to me after that, but that's ok.

ok - so this got long and will probably just sound like more excuses as to why my M isn't getting better, but here it goes anyways...

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

I'm working on reading through her sitch, there is a lot there and i do have to work a little during the day...

I'm really trying not to do more of the same. I feel like i have changed my attitude and behavior and I'm working on more.

Precise examples of YOUR excuses and more of the same. I've seen this pattern all along. You are in effect enabling his behavior.

Here is a problem that i seem to have with a lot of people, my H included... it seems as though putting in effort and doing the best i can is never really good enough. My H wanted a D... Why? Cause i couldn't guarantee an immediate change and my best effort and vow to work on it wasn't enough. So now here i am, saying that i'm doing my best to read through someone else's thread (heaven forbid i have to work at my job) and i'm making excuses. It was meant to be a light hearted comment, not an excuse, but at some point, there are just reasons for things and not everything is an excuse.

Sometimes i just don't have time for everything. Call it an excuse or whatever. I work full time (1 hr commute each way and 8.5 hours at work). I am a full time student in college (about 1-2 hours per day, more on the weekends). I average about 12 hours a day doing that. Then i have 3 daughters that need me. I cook dinner when i get home each night. I do laundry and clean. Every once in a while i try to squeeze in a couple hours of sleep. Could i easily just sit back and, in essence, go on strike... YES Could i tell him he needs to do it and then wait until there are no clean clothes and no food to eat. YES Would you have me live in a dirty home, not worry about what my kids eat and sit back and expect him to grow up... if you were me, what would you do? If you were my H, what would make you wake up and say "oh wow, i have a wife and 3 beautiful little girls, i better grow up"

Stop accepting excuses from YOURSELF.

You can only guarantee changing YOU. Your only hope for success is to change YOU, first! Actually do it now, no "trying". Then MAYBE he'll change over time (months to years).

I have changed alot since i first came here. I'm sorry if you can't see that. I stand up for myself on a regular basis, yeah, sometimes i don't, but we all backslide. I've yet to meet anyone perfect at this. Everything that went wrong in my M can be traced directly back to me letting him get away with stuff, so yeah, i have to make a lot of changes and i am making them, i am a work in progress and i'm getting stronger. I am by nature a push over. I've always let people walk all over me. I've always been the nice one. I'm a people pleaser and i hate that people could not like me for any reason. Since i came here all that hasn't changed completely, but i have gotten stronger. I can't control what my husband does or says (i don't try anymore), but i can control how i respond to it. When he yells and screams and tries to start fights with me, i won't yell back or even talk to him until he calms down. When he says something disrespectful, i tell him. When he gets critical about things being done well enough, i tell him that he can help or deal with it like it is. Outside of that, i've hired someone to help me with my house every other week. I've been seeing a MC, alone and against my H's request. I've been trying to take more time for myself, when i can. I'm sure there is other stuff, but i can't really think right now.

Advice i've gotten has gone from don't expect anything to expect more of him. Don't treat him like a child, but tell him he can't take naps, shouldn't play video games. Reassure him, but tell him that we can't keep talking about OM. don't ask him about seeing a MC or IC, but he needs to see one. probably, i'm just not understanding, but it gets a little confusing.

what kills me in all this is that H is the one who came to me and said he didn't want the D and that he really wanted to work on our M. he wanted to make me fall in love with him. that was almost a year ago. he's not doing such a good job...

fb2 - i didn't mean to vent that all towards you, but it just kinda got dumped on your response. I don't want you or anyone else to think that i don't appreciate the help and the 2x4s that i need. I do. I TRY (yes try) to follow the advice to the best of my ability. Sometimes it goes well and other times it does not.

yesterday I read what everyone wrote and i started to reply, but i wanted to think about it first. I was really overwhelmed and what came out seemed more like me whining than anything else. Then i get online today, after feeling like i had done pretty well last night and here i am with "more of the same" and "enabling him" and "me making excuses"... and i decided that i did need to say something, if for no other reason than to vent.

A few questions for anyone whose actually gotten this far:

1. what's the difference between an excuse and a reason that something happens or is done.
2. How do i expect him to grow up from him without nagging and acting like his mother?
3. How do i expect anything of him and then not be dissappointed when it doesn't happen?

it's funny that I feel like i have to stand up for myself here too.

take care ann

[fb2]

Dear Ann,

"1. what's the difference between an excuse and a reason that something happens or is done.
2. How do i expect him to grow up from him without nagging and acting like his mother?
3. How do i expect anything of him and then not be dissappointed when it doesn't happen?"

I really think you are quite capable of answering your questions. I'm no expert on this so take what I way with a pinch of salt. I could be wrong but I thought you may want to read this article. I saw myself in it http://www.coping.org/relations/martyr.htm

And remember we all love you.

[ann25]

Hi Sandi,

Thanks for the post. I think that i felt a lot of the same things you felt too. My H went from acting like he loved and wanted me to wanting a D and just using me for sex when it was convenient to him. OM made me feel better about myself. He told me everything i wanted to hear. when i think back, it kinda reminds me of those telephone psychics, where you tell them just enough for them to figure out what you need to hear and believe them... you are right, i don't need anyone to make me feel worse about it than i've already made myself feel.

there are lots of OM's out there. Funny how that doesn't bother some men. I know for me, unless i end up divorced, there will never be another man. I know why i went there and i will make sure it doesn't happen again. I don'think H believes that, but i know it, so it's ok.

I do need a plan. Maybe that's why i'm having such a hard time. I feel like i keep getting mixed advice and maybe it's just that i'm not understanding. What kind of consequences should he have? What kind of consequences do you give a grown man when he doesn't want to act like a dad or wake up from a nap?

If he doesn't know that these things upset me then he is more thick headed than i ever thought. i tell him when he says something disrespectful or mean. he may be depressed, i've thought that, but he won't go to the Dr. or see anyone, so he'll just deal with it in his own way i guess. I've made him Dr. appts, but he says he forgets or gets to busy.

He hasn't forgiven me. it's been almost 11 months since he found out and i ended it. He can't let go of it. I'm sure it takes a lot of time and I don't expect him to have forgiven me yet, but that doesn't mean he can act however he wants. OM has way more of a hold on H than he ever did on me. H now dislikes anything that has to do with the military. Didn't even watch one of his favorite shows recently because it was a support the troops episode. He also makes a lot of derogitory comments about hispanic people. Nothing to them and he doesn't actually treat them any differently, but OM was hispanic, so he makes comments a lot. i told him he needs to stop that in front of his Ds cause they'll pick up on it. He was mad, but has been better about it.

thanks ann

[Dom R]

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

fb2,

I had just written a long email to Ann, that was already "tough and to the point".
She didnt need more of the same. That just made her feel set-upon, and overwhelmed.
Plus, it diluted the points I was trying to make to Ann, to where I think she has now missed them.

How about easing up for a while?
You suggested that Ann talk to forrestgump, for more 2x4-age.
But I dont think that's what she needs.
if once doesnt get someone's attention, then more, is just going to be bruising, not helpful.

[ann25]

Dear Ann,

"1. what's the difference between an excuse and a reason that something happens or is done.
2. How do i expect him to grow up from him without nagging and acting like his mother?
3. How do i expect anything of him and then not be dissappointed when it doesn't happen?"

I really think you are quite capable of answering your questions. I'm no expert on this so take what I way with a pinch of salt. I could be wrong but I thought you may want to read this article. I saw myself in it http://www.coping.org/relations/martyr.htm

And remember we all love you.

I think i'm going to regret having written that...

I actually can't answer those questions and that is why i asked... I'm trying to ask the people that said i am making excuses because i obviously can't tell the difference.

i don't expect you to be an expert and i'm a little sorry i let your post take all my venting. I don't expect you to know how i feel or exactly what is going on because you don't really know me, so i try not to take stuff too personally. (again with the trying)doesn't always go so well.

The article was pretty much me in a nutshell, except that i have made changes in an effort to make things better and they've gotten better in some areas and worse in others. My only problem with it is that what i read, with where i'm at right now, told me to get out of a bad situation. Unless i leave him, i'm going to be a martyr until it gets better, right.

please don't take anything i said too personally either. We obviously all care about each other or we wouldn't be here trying to help.

thank you!!! ann

[ann25]

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

fb2,

I had just written a long email to Ann, that was already "tough and to the point".
She didnt need more of the same. That just made her feel set-upon, and overwhelmed.
Plus, it diluted the points I was trying to make to Ann, to where I think she has now missed them.

How about easing up for a while?
You suggested that Ann talk to forrestgump, for more 2x4-age.
But I dont think that's what she needs.
if once doesnt get someone's attention, then more, is just going to be bruising, not helpful.

i agree and that is basically what happened. Luckily, i get over things quickly... no harm done.

Since i am trying and really do want to see positive changes and don't want to be a martyr... can you help...

I feel like i don't know how to expect him to be a grown up and expect him to be a man if i'm treating him like a child. If i'm telling him what he can and can't do, how is that making him grow up, isn't that just more of the same?

Also, there have been a couple times when i've brought up the fact that he said he'd make an effort to change. He continues with the excuses that i don't want to be accepting. So, how long do i accept his, "i will" and other excuses before I start just doing my own thing. I guess i already kinda am... we haven't had dinner together in a week. The girls and i go into their room and read books and color and stuff, but we don't see him. I go to bed when i'm tired and i don't wait for him... Should i be giving him more time to try or do i just keep going and see if he even notices.

i'm going to reread your other post and respond, just to be sure i don't miss your point, cause i probably did!

Thanks!! ann

[Dom R]

HI Ann,

i'm going to attempt to write a 'short' post to you

Great job on standing up to your H, about your need for sleep.

Here is a problem that i seem to have with a lot of people, my H included... it seems as though putting in effort and doing the best i can is never really good enough. My H wanted a D... Why? Cause i couldn't guarantee an immediate change and my best effort and vow to work on it wasn't enough.

I think that's a really interesting point. And you should definately bring it up to him, when the issue comes up about you wanting HIM to change his treatment of you, and him pushing back about him not being able to "do everything right away"

if you were me, what would you do? If you were my H, what would make you wake up and say "oh wow, i have a wife and 3 beautiful little girls, i better grow up"

I have told you exactly what I think you need to do, as you

The bottom line is, you cant "make him wake up". And you probably wouldnt want him all grown up, about EVERYTHING... that might get kinda boring
You can, however, choose in what areas his irresponsible behaviour, is no longer "ok".
That's not to say you should harp on him about EVERYTHING at once. There needs to be quiet, non-pressure, relaxed times, too.
Still, though, when something important happens... dont just let him get away with it.
(the occasional glass of ice water may help )

I can't control what my husband does or says (i don't try anymore), but i can control how i respond to it. When he yells and screams and tries to start fights with me, i won't yell back or even talk to him until he calms down. When he says something disrespectful, i tell him. When he gets critical about things being done well enough, i tell him that he can help or deal with it like it is.

I think this is Great! Just keep doing what you're doing, and be consistent about it

oh well, so much for short, here goes more..


A few questions for anyone whose actually gotten this far:

1. what's the difference between an excuse and a reason that something happens or is done.

I'd say, it's the difference between "cant" and "wont".
An excuse, is pretending a "wont", is a "cant". if you get my meaning.
Even having "a reason", can still be an excuse in that light.

"Oh i cant go shopping today, it's raining".
is really, "I WONT go shopping today, because I dont feel like putting on rain gear, etc..."


2. How do i expect him to grow up from him without nagging and acting like his mother?

tricky. you have to choose your battles. You cant "make him grow up" on the inside. But you can choose what you accept from him as "ok", and choose when you do and dont pick up his slack. Compensating for him, says at some level that his behaviour is ok. Sometimes, you have no other choice. Sometimes, you do have a choice.
You definitely had a choice, with his napping.



3. How do i expect anything of him and then not be dissappointed when it doesn't happen?

Also tricky.
It probably starts with having reasonable expectations.
Also, in some areas, you SHOULD be disappointed. (in the sense of telling him, "I really expected better of you there!", rather than being personally broken up inside about failure)

The "zen" method of beng the active working partner, in an unbalanced marriage, is by attempting to have ZERO expectations, while still occasionally trying positive actions.
It's not quite "expecting to fail", but just deciding ahead of time, that if you/they dont succeed, it's ok.

Then, if it DOES work... you get to feel really happy!
But if it does not work... well, you were ok with that anyway.
What i'm describing, is essentially "detaching" from the hurt of unmet expectations, instead of "giving up".
You "let go" of the expectation, rather than the relationship.

OM has way more of a hold on H than he ever did on me. H now dislikes anything that has to do with the military. Didn't even watch one of his favorite shows recently because it was a support the troops episode.

I think you're going to have to just let that run its course.
Accept that he is hurt, and that's the way he feels, and allow him to feel hurt.
It may take a few more years for it to get better.
It will probably take a year, AFTER the point that your marriage is good again, for his hurt in that area, to subside, i'd guess.

Hang in there. You're doing good things.
It takes time.

[Dom R]

ok an actual short one this time

So, how long do i accept his, "i will" and other excuses before I start just doing my own thing. I guess i already kinda am... we haven't had dinner together in a week. The girls and i go into their room and read books and color and stuff, but we don't see him. I go to bed when i'm tired and i don't wait for him... Should i be giving him more time to try or do i just keep going and see if he even notices.

It sounds like you are doing great, in managing your own frustration level, and "doing what needs to be done".

The only thing you have to watch out for.. and be VERY careful about... is to not drift completely into the "separate lives" trap.
Show him that you would still LIKE him to join you for dinner, sometimes. etc.
If I forget to remind you... you'll have to remember after a month of this... if he hasnt noticed, and isnt making more of an effort to join you... you'll have to try something else, to get him to "engage" with you more.

Put a notice to yourself in some computer calendar or something, maybe?

Plus, even from right now, maybe you should make sure that both of you, have fair and equal "chores" to do, for the family?

That might help him not just totally disconnect and hide in his room all day.

[Racefan]

Hi Ann, OK I'm going to change. I'll be tough and to the point, here goes ...

fb2,

I had just written a long email to Ann, that was already "tough and to the point".
She didnt need more of the same. That just made her feel set-upon, and overwhelmed.
Plus, it diluted the points I was trying to make to Ann, to where I think she has now missed them.

How about easing up for a while?
You suggested that Ann talk to forrestgump, for more 2x4-age.
But I dont think that's what she needs.
if once doesnt get someone's attention, then more, is just going to be bruising, not helpful.

i agree and that is basically what happened. Luckily, i get over things quickly... no harm done.

Since i am trying and really do want to see positive changes and don't want to be a martyr... can you help...

I feel like i don't know how to expect him to be a grown up and expect him to be a man if i'm treating him like a child. If i'm telling him what he can and can't do, how is that making him grow up, isn't that just more of the same?

Also, there have been a couple times when i've brought up the fact that he said he'd make an effort to change. He continues with the excuses that i don't want to be accepting. So, how long do i accept his, "i will" and other excuses before I start just doing my own thing. I guess i already kinda am... we haven't had dinner together in a week. The girls and i go into their room and read books and color and stuff, but we don't see him. I go to bed when i'm tired and i don't wait for him... Should i be giving him more time to try or do i just keep going and see if he even notices.

i'm going to reread your other post and respond, just to be sure i don't miss your point, cause i probably did!

Thanks!! ann

{{{ann}}}

You sound very frustrated, this can all be so draining on ones mind. Some times it makes you feel like your spinning your wheels getting no where can totally empathize. Doesn't help that you are spread pretty thin with work, school, kids and very little sleep. If you don't get sleep you can't process clearly as I'm sure you know, I think that should be a priority before you crash.

I will try and answer your 3 questions:

1. An excuse is something that is said to cover ones tracks and to get them out of trouble for the time.

A reason is somthing that is said to explain why a certain event happened and to be able to accept ones mistake and take responsibility for it.

2. How to get him to grow up...

My thought here is the same as I would do with one of my kids, if something is done wrong then there are consequences for it and they must be enforced in order for growth to take place.

3. I guess the best way to answer your 3rd question, is this way if we 'expect' someone to do something aren't we just setting the situation up to fail? If we don't 'expect' something then there is no true disappointment.

Of course this is just my perception of the questions asked so break it down to what you can get from it.

Be patient with yourself and get some rest...

Brian

[ann25]

i'd like to say i'll keep this short, but i haven't ever kept one short yet, so why try now... hehe

first of all, Thank you!!

When i asked what you would do, i was actually talking to fb2 cause he seems to think that what i've been trying to do is the same old thing... but thanks!! yes, i know what you think i should do...

I'd say, it's the difference between "cant" and "wont".
An excuse, is pretending a "wont", is a "cant". if you get my meaning.
Even having "a reason", can still be an excuse in that light.

"Oh i cant go shopping today, it's raining".
is really, "I WONT go shopping today, because I dont feel like putting on rain gear, etc..."

WOW - i make a lot of excuses. For me, i don't consider it an excuse so much as a reason if the other thing takes priority. For instance, when i said i had to get some work done so i couldn't read posts. Yes, i was physically capable, but getting work done is more important. When i went to wake him up, the first time, i had more important things to tend to immediately. I shouldn't have let him keep resting, i should have just gone and done what was urgent and gone back to wake him up rather than letting him sleep...

You definitely had a choice, with his napping.

I think this is an area of my confusion. How do i have a choice in letting him nap. If he says, "i'm going to go take a nap" do i say no? or when i go to wake him up and he says he needs more sleep, do i say "no" at that point, aren't i taking mother role and not wife? I'm not arguing the point, just looking to better understand.

What i'm describing, is essentially "detaching" from the hurt of unmet expectations, instead of "giving up".
You "let go" of the expectation, rather than the relationship.

I get that. That's kinda already how i look at it. i pretty much expect to fail when i'm asking for things. I think i'm so used to not expecting anything from him, that once i got over the being personally hurt by it (like he did it to hurt me) that i started expecting him to not help/be nice/etc...

It will probably take a year, AFTER the point that your marriage is good again, for his hurt in that area, to subside, i'd guess.

like i've always said to him and here, i know it will take time. i know that no amount of my apologizing or wanting it to feel better will help. whenever he wants to talk about it, i do and i reassure him. Occassionally he'll say something mean or hurtful about me and i do stop him there, cause it is in the past, but if he wants to talk about how he's feeling i always let him. Forgiveness i can wait forever for. falling in love i can wait forever for... the only thing that i can't wait forever for is him to change how he treats me and how he acts as a H.

Show him that you would still LIKE him to join you for dinner, sometimes. etc

i do. Last night, i asked him if he'd like to take a break from whatever he was doing and come down and have dessert with me and Ds. He asked if i needed him to come and I said no, that i'd just like to spend some time with him. He said he'd really rather finish what he was doing. So i went down and at with the girls and we watched some silly new reality/game show with a bunch of dogs... it would have been nice of him to join us, but we had fun anyways.

Plus, even from right now, maybe you should make sure that both of you, have fair and equal "chores" to do, for the family?

That might help him not just totally disconnect and hide in his room all day.

ummmm... that sounds like a nice idea. not sure how to get him to do "his chores" (now i sound like his mom). Right now, we are unpacking, so that will keep him busy. He has lots of electronics and toys that he'll be unpacking. help is help right, i can't be too picky!

last night, i found out that he smacked my D4 in the mouth for yelling at her sister and arguing. Don't get me wrong, this deserves punishment, but that is not something we ever talked about. Spankings and timeouts, taking away priveleges or something like that, but i'm not ok with what he did. The last time i confronted him about how he treated the girls, it backfired. Any ideas on how i should approach this?