Feeling Hopeless...

[ann25]

So... this is me starting a new thread cause my last one got waaaay too long.

here is my most recent thread for anyone that's interested.

My Most Recent Thread

Things are basically the same. Thanks Dom for the advice. I'll respond to the post in a little bit. I really appreciate you laying it out for me, i think that is really the only way to do it at this point.

thanks HS - i appreciate your insight as well. I'll respond to everything later.

thanks everyone!!! ann

[ann25]

I am merely saying that you cant 'fix that'. or at least not right now. you gotta focus on your #1 priority first: your marriage. Fix THAT first, and then your children's issues will become a whole lot easier to help afterwards.

Until that time, you might try to protect them or divert them, or just encourage them to be not around "dad" as much, if he doesnt seem to want them around him.

Thanks. I know that i can't make him be a better dad. I can't make him be nice to them. I have started just keeping them away from him, especially when i know he's in an especially bad mood. When he starts yelling at them, i tell him to let me handle them and he normally just goes back to whatever he's doing. I think when i ask him for help with them and he doesn't want to it's like he takes it out on them. Any ideas on how i can get him to help me with the girls (something on my list) without him being bitter about it and taking it out on them?

he has to realize what changes he needs to make, and why he needs to make them.
Right now, I think he believes that he does not have to make any changes... because you will eventually give up and do everything he says. (or close enough for his liking)

That's pretty much the way i am. I have a lot on my plate and it's always been easier to submit to what he wants than to fight it. If i had realized that it would get me here, i would have suffered the headaches then cause they are about 100 times worse now.

The most important thing, is to let him know, up front, cooly and calmly, exactly what you need to see from him.
As I keep stressing, this needs to be specific actions.
It's tough to make "specific actions", about him talking disrespectfully to you, i admit... that's an exception. You MUST confront hiim when he does that. No way around that. That doesnt mean yelling, though.
What he has to do on his part, is listen to you when you confront him. If he doesnt, that becomes part of his "required actions" that you demand.

Thank you. i'm putting listening to me at the top of my list...

also, DO NOT SETTLE for breadcrumbs.
Make sure that he really gets committed to FULLY meeting your needs, before you reverse things.

this will probably be the hardest part for me. How am i supposed to know that he's going to keep doing what i need or if he's just doing it til i stop asking for it.

This is really tough stuff, as I said. It will take tremendous willpower to see this through, given your previous patterns with you.

I'm doing ok so far. I kinda feel like this is my last chance to make this work, not because he's going any where, but because i can't handle it. what you said about once i'm prepared for a real divorce that i'll be less likely to want to fix it. I think i've already kind of prepared myself and that's making this hard, but i'm going to try realy hard. thank you for always helping me along even when i'm not very good at taking advice...

[ann25]

Wow ann I just spent close to 3 hours reading this entire thread

WOW... thank you

I know it has for me, when my wife moved out and said she wanted a divorce, I wanted nothing more than to work on the R/M more passionately than I ever have wanted anything before in the past.

i'm sooo hoping it doesn't come to that.

I understood what dom is trying to say also about how your little girl's will be worse off post-divorce, yes he may not be treating them very well at all right now, but going through a divorce will throw a lot more "scary" people at them that you cant protect them from who just want to divy them up like they're nothing more than good china. So still think seriously about whether, even though they are being treated bad, that putting them through that wouldnt be worse and would last a hell of a lot longer(their whole lives)

I get that too. i guess for me, i have to determine what level of emotional abuse i'm willing to let mey girls suffer through. For me, if he was physically abusive to me or them, i'd be gone already. There would be no working on it, i'd be gone. To me, while emotional abuse is not the same, it still hurts and leaves people (especially young children) scarred. If it were just me, i'd probably just deal with it, but it's not just me.

I know I may not be providing much help but I hope that at least I could help in someway.

you've been helpful. Even if you have not advice and simply stop by to say hi, it's encouraging and that is helpful!! Thanks!

God does love you and wants nothing more than to keep your family together, but your the one who has to do all the work. Good luck

I know that God doesn't want to see my family fall apart, i remind myself of that as i sit in church every week alone. Maybe one of these days i can get him to actually come with me when he says he will...

[ann25]

ok - so now that i've responded, i'll give a little update.

We are in the process of selling our home because the rent keeps going up and with gas prices, i need to be closer to work. He works from home, so that makes it easier. On tuesday last week, his friend offered to rent us part of his home (has a very large home and is a single guy) so not only would we be closer, but we could save some money cause he wouldn't charge us what it would cost us anywhere else. We talked about it and got advice from some friends and family and decided that this would be the best thing right now.

From my perspective, outside of the money saving aspect, H tends to be a little nicer when other people are around and while this guy is out of town alot on business, i think it could help him think about the way he is treating all of us.

Friday-
i had a dr. appt and stuff during the day, but i figured that Friday night, after the girls went to bed, would be a good time to talk to him. i had pretty much prepared myself all day. I wanted to be able to tell him what exactly i needed without getting too emotional and without letting him interrupt me.

We needed to go out and get some things from the store, so we all went. I asked if maybe we could all have dinner out after we were done. i thought it would be a nice thing. I'm on a diet, but i can find something pretty much anywhere. He said it was fine and that he wanted a specific restaurant. When he came up to the freeway entrance (freeway goes to restaurant, otherwise we head home) he asked what we were doing what had i decided. i told him to go where he wanted. Apparently, i had an attitude (i don't recall that, but he said so) and he got mad. He got quiet and wouldn't talk to me. Everything he said, he yelled.

He stopped by fast food and ordered something for the girls. he asked what i wanted and i told him i didn't want anything. that made him mad too. Anyways, we went home, he went inside and shut himself into his office, then spent the rest of the night in our bedroom (he even ate in there).

Normally, i would check on him, see if he's ok, see what i could do to help his mood, but i can't keep doing that. He came out cause he said he needed to go out for a little bit and i took that time to try and talk to him.

I told him that we couldn't keep going on like this. I told him that I need things to change because if things keep heading down the path they are on, our family would fall apart. i told him that i need him to be more respectful of me and less insulting. I told him that if he doesn't know what to do or what I need that i at least need him to listen to me when i tell him that something bothers me because i'll tell him specifics as they happen.

I told him that i need him to help me more with the girls. I told him i don't care if you play with them or help them with things, but if i'm doing something (cooking, cleaning, homework...etc) that i need him to change diapers, get drinks and make sure they stay in bed at night. That if one cries, i need him to check on it.

I told him that sometimes i just need some space. Just because i don't want to sit right next to him on the couch doesn't mean i'm cheating or want to leave, just that i need my own personal space sometimes.

I also told him that i need him to accept me as i am. If i tell him that i've done my best, that's it. He's not getting anything more than that out of me. i always try my best to keep things going well and that if there is something extra he'd like to see done in the house that i would appreciate his help with that cause right now, i'm doing what i can.

I asked him if there was anything he'd like me to work on or change because i want to be the best wife i can be.

he said no.

I told him that i needed him to tell me he'd work on these things. i said that i didn't need him to do everything right this second, but to start working on it so that I know he cares enough about me to try.

he said, and i quote, "fine, i'll try"

i told him that i appreciate it.

Later, he told me that he feels like i'm acting the same way now as when i was talking to OM. That if i just want to leave him i should just tell him now rather than asking for him to do things that won't even help. That when he told me what's been bothering him lately was dealing with moving (he's been acting strange lately) that it wasn't he was thinking about me being with OM. I never was, but he was imagining it... i told him that i was sorry he was feeling that way and maybe next time, he could talk to me about it rather than just imagining things for weeks and keeping it in. he said "yeah, whatever" then told me he was going to bed. He went to bed and was asleep by the time i got eveything in the house shut off and the baby in the bedroom.

We haven't talked much since. It's been a couple of busy days. He's been gone all day today, so maybe we'll talk tonight if he comes home. We'll see...

ann

[Dom R]

Wow.. big night for you! I'm going to reply to your other stuff, but a quick mini-reply here to not get things mixed up:

Any ideas on how i can get him to help me with the girls (something on my list) without him being bitter about it and taking it out on them?

Given how volatile your situation is... I think i would recommend that you not even go there. I think that it might be best, if you instead asked him to help with Other things, that in some way helped you deal with the girls better yourself.

if you need time away... I think you would be best off, arranging for babysitting directly, yourself.

Given your current mental state, I think it is likely that, whatever your initial intentions... any attempt by you of bringing up the subject of your girls.. will eventually head down the road of "they're your children too, why dont you spend more time with them, ....".

So... better to just not go there.
At the very most, ask him for money for babysitting(if you need it), but i suggest not asking for his direct involvement in any way there.

Even if he DID choose to follow what you ask in that area... it would build resentment from him. So.. not a good idea, i think.

thank you for always helping me along even when i'm not very good at taking advice...

you're welcome. I just always hope that my advice is actually useful and helpful to the person

[Dom R]

Sigh.. another mini-post.. another one coming later.. stay tuned.. :-)

Friday-
i had a dr. appt and stuff during the day, but i figured that Friday night, after the girls went to bed, would be a good time to talk to him.
.... Apparently, i had an attitude (i don't recall that, but he said so) and he got mad. He got quiet and wouldn't talk to me. Everything he said, he yelled.

He stopped by fast food and ordered something for the girls. he asked what i wanted and i told him i didn't want anything. that made him mad too.

and now for the meat of this post.
Sounds like you need a little "Male translator" help.

We're generally pretty dense about female moods... but sometimes, even we can tell "something's up"
He somehow could tell you were gearing up to something.

It's really, REALLY important that you understand this aspect of him. Because ONE of you has to... otherwise, this sort of thing will keep reoccuring.. and HE's not likely to get struck by the lightning bolt of revelation

guys want to "fix things".
he could tell "something's wrong".
When something's wrong, a guy wants to FIX IT!
You not talking, made him unable to fix it.

You saying you "didnt want anything", translated in his mind, that, "something's REAAALLY wrong... but you wont talk about it. ".

Which, to the average guys' mind, kinda registers like, "well, there's this great big bubbling water heater, that's at max pressure,boiling at around 200 degrees, it's going to blow up... and I have no idea where the pressure release valve is, or what else to do."

he really really wanted to fix it. but he didnt know how to.
When confronted with this sort of situation, guys tend to do one of two things:

a) pound it with a sledgehammer (metaphorically speaking), or
b) run away and hide [either to avoid admitting failure of "i cant fix it", or just to avoid an "explosion"]

Anyways, we went home, he went inside and shut himself into his office, then spent the rest of the night in our bedroom (he even ate in there).

Guess what he did?

-----

PS: alternative theory:
while everything I said can be true of a male in general.... it is also worth considering that your gearing up to talk, made you tight-lipped and snippy... which really could simply be taken as having "a [hostile] attitude".

SO.. there's a grain of salt for ya

[Dom R]

AWWWRIGHT, now my comments on the
final stuff of your post.. your "big talk" with your H...


Hmm.
not the best timing, but better to be said, than not said.

overall, sounds like you did a pretty good job of laying things out for him.

I hope you will still keep in mind what I wrote about him helping with the girls, above.
To that end, when you "need help watching them when you are cooking/cleaning/wahtever".... consider giving him HIS CHOICE, of either watching the girls, OR, doing the cooking/cleaning/whatever himself. you might be surprised at which he picks.

Later, he told me that he feels like i'm acting the same way now as when i was talking to OM. That if i just want to leave him i should just tell him now rather than asking for him to do things that won't even help.

Final, critical comment!

I think it's really really important for you to go back and tell him the truth about how you feel. That is to say, tell him, that ;

yes, you feel just like you did about him, when you started talking to the OM. That is how badly you feel about things.
The key difference this time, is that this time, you are choosing to try to deal with your feelings and problems, the way you should have the first time: by confronting him about them.

(which is the only real and fair way to reach mutual resolution of them!)

The above is a very concise set of words, yet has a very powerful impact on many levels:

1. it lets him know just how serious things are.
2. it acknowleges to him, that you did not handle things right the last time. (which should actually shut him up a bit on that)
3. it sets a new expectation from here on in, that when you have major problems with him, you will talk to him about them, rather than just running away from confrontation.

If you can get these things through to him in this way... I think it could set the stage as the turning point in your marriage.

Lots and lots of work to do ahead still Mostly, from you, making sure to speak up each and every time he talks badly to you, etc.
But if both of you can come together on those 3 things... I think that you two could head towards having a great marriage together. You would start to shovel "junk" OUT and away from your lives, rather than burying yourself in more of it



PS: (it's odd that he said he thinks these things "wont even help". But some men really dont understand how important you think those things are.
He could probably use some reassurance from you that yes, they really will help)



Ok, now i'm done for the night. happy reading and I hope you find something useful in all that.

[ann25]

WOW - Thanks Dom - You were busy...

In regards to the first post and asking him for help. I don't need his help, i just want it. i can handle it and you are right, it's better that i don't even ask.

It's not even so much that i want him to spend time with them, but just treat them a little better. i know i can't focus on that, but it still kills me.

At the very most, ask him for money for babysitting(if you need it), but i suggest not asking for his direct involvement in any way there.

The last time i needed to get something done i called my sister. She loves the girls. She doesn't understand why he can't watch them, but i just told her it's easier for me this way, so she helps me out.

I know that i can't focus on the girls and him, but his inability to grow up and be a father just tends to make me think negatively about him. I've always wanted 4 or 5 kids. He should have told me if he didn't want any.

You saying you "didnt want anything", translated in his mind, that, "something's REAAALLY wrong... but you wont talk about it. ".

I do appreciate what you are saying here, but he knows that i'm on a diet and i try not to eat fast food. 99% of the time, when we pick up something and take it home, i'll eat whatever we have at home. He knows this, so it shouldn't have been so bad.

PS: alternative theory:
while everything I said can be true of a male in general.... it is also worth considering that your gearing up to talk, made you tight-lipped and snippy... which really could simply be taken as having "a [hostile] attitude".

I can also appreciate this except normally, if i have an attitude with him, he's really quick to mention what a b**** i'm being. It's not something that comes up often, but he certainly doesn't miss a chance to point that out. Maybe he was just being nice? doesn't seem likely.

now onto #3

Hmm.
not the best timing, but better to be said, than not said.

I agree, not the best timing, but if we have many more of these nights when he goes off into the other room and throws a fit, there will be nothing left to talk about, so i figured i better get it out.

To that end, when you "need help watching them when you are cooking/cleaning/wahtever".... consider giving him HIS CHOICE, of either watching the girls, OR, doing the cooking/cleaning/whatever himself. you might be surprised at which he picks.

I actually did that last night. I was cooking dinner and he told me that D2 needed a new diaper. I asked him if he could change it since i was in the middle of cooking. He said she'd probably be fine until i was done. I told him i'd just prefer to clean her up now, would he mind watching the food for a couple minutes so i could change her and he said he was doing something maybe in a little bit. I just turned off the stove and went and did it. I know that he knows i'll do this, so i probably should have just waited for his help (if he ever would have), but i'm not going to leave her in a dirty diaper if i don't have to... So, basically, he chose neither.

yes, you feel just like you did about him, when you started talking to the OM. That is how badly you feel about things.
The key difference this time, is that this time, you are choosing to try to deal with your feelings and problems, the way you should have the first time: by confronting him about them.

So, here's the thing. I don't feel like i did last time. That was a totally different situation. He was sleeping in his office, he still wanted a divorce, we weren't talking, we didn't spend anytime together and he wouldn't even touch me. I was trying to figure out a way to either get him back or get over him when i met OM. i was in a totally differnt place, so for me to say, i feel the same is crazy. I don't even know how he has any idea how i was acting then cause we never spent any time together. I might be acting similarly cause i was miserable then and at least in my M i am miserable, but my feelings - no way near the same.

everytime we talk about it (it usually comes up because i confront him about something) I tell him that the difference this time is that NOW, i know why i did that before. it was because i just hid how i was feeling and didn't tell him how badly he was hurting me because i figured it would go away and this time i'm telling him cause i won't let that happen again. I told him that it was the biggest mistake i've ever made, but i did learn a lot from it about myself, so i know what i need to do to prevent it from happening again.

PS: (it's odd that he said he thinks these things "wont even help". But some men really dont understand how important you think those things are.
He could probably use some reassurance from you that yes, they really will help)

I think he feels like it's inevitable that i'm eventually going to leave or cheat on him. He's never trusted me or anyone for that matter, so i think he doesn't think anything can help. I did tell him that those things really will help not only me, but our relationship. But there is a catch, he actually has to do them... Yesterday, he went over to where we will be living to help them move some stuff they had in the empty rooms. When he got back, the first thing he does when he walks in the house is say "i guess it will never really be clean, will it" not hi or anything else, just his disapproval... he asked me if i was going to work on it more this week. I told him of course i was and i asked him if he could point out what wasn't clean enough for him so that i could work on that. (to me, it was clean, so i'm not really sure what his problem was) he says, that if i can't even tell, he'll just have to deal with it. then he said, you know, you always say it'll get better, but it never does. i told him that if he could tell me what he wanted, i could do it. He said that he might as well just start doing everything himself cause that's the only way it will ever get done... i told him he was more than welcome to.

here is my question: how do i confront him about the fact that he's completely ignoring the things that i asked him to do. Helping with the girls or other stuff so i can handle the girls. and being super critical of how i clean the house. I probably should have said something right away, but what i wanted to to say and what's good for my M, are on opposite ends of the spectrum, so i figured it was best to leave it alone.

it's frustrating cause i feel almost like one of those women that got M thinking that their H would change or that they could change them. It would be different if i had met him now and this is how he was. That's probably just how he's gonna be, but i just expected him to grow up a little bit from 16 to 26. The only difference now is that he keeps a job and then he couldn't. other than that, he's the same boy that i started dating 10 years ago... i really thought he'd grow up...

Thanks again Dom for your advice...

[Dom R]

Wow. complicated.
Interesting that you pointed out that things are different now, from when you were pursuing OM. Good to know and be aware of.

I actually did that last night. I was cooking dinner and he told me that D2 needed a new diaper. I asked him if he could change it since i was in the middle of cooking. He said she'd probably be fine until i was done. I told him i'd just prefer to clean her up now, would he mind watching the food for a couple minutes so i could change her and he said he was doing something maybe in a little bit. I just turned off the stove and went and did it. I know that he knows i'll do this, so i probably should have just waited for his help (if he ever would have), but i'm not going to leave her in a dirty diaper if i don't have to... So, basically, he chose neither.

yes, he chose to do nothing... and you let him.
This has to stop.. And there's no time like the present.


My take on how you could have handled it better;
"She needs to be taken care of, NOW, not later. Would YOU like to sit around in crap for a few minutes?
This food also needs watching, right now. So, are you going to change her, or come watch the food?"

In situations like these, I think you have to stop being so "polite". No more of the "I would prefer it" language. He takes that as "I can ignore it".
Stop letting him feel entitled to just loaf around the house goofing off.



Personally, if you're both home, and he's basically just goofing around... I think you should have him handle dinner more often.
Particularly while you have the newborn. Right now, I'm presuming he handles dinner at home, let's say... never?
Even if he just decides to call and have something delivered, that's one less thing you have to deal with.
Just so long as its not drive-through every time?


Good job on handling the house cleaning argument. Possibly even a little stronger, would have been better. You know there's going to be a next time, so for that time, perhaps something like,
"I do the best that I can do. If you want it 'better than the best that I can do', then you need to either hire someone, or do it yourself. Or just ACCEPT HOW I DO IT. "
(remind him about you telling him a few days ago he needs to accept you )
Then, ask him to pick which one it's going to be.

No more just letting him silently sulk at your attempt at self-defense, yet still letting him repeatedly bring it up to gripe about later. Make him actually pick a RESOLUTION to this long-standing problem, there and then.

i just expected him to grow up a little bit from 16 to 26. The only difference now is that he keeps a job and then he couldn't. other than that, he's the same boy that i started dating 10 years ago... i really thought he'd grow up...

Thanks again Dom for your advice...

As far as I've heard, the path of turning little boys into men, involves selectively expecting more out of them than little boys' behaviour. Then, and only then, do they start growing into responsible adulthood.

[Tomato]

COME OUT ...COME OUT ...WHEREVER YOU ARE!

Ok it has been a week since we have seen you. I hope you are experiencing some joys during this "no posting" time. Let us know how you are, ok? I'll keep praying.