Hmmm...just thinking of your sign off there, J. I was about to agree whole-heartedly that all of these "messes" are unfortunate, indeed.
Then I settled in some, and thought about it. Does part of me wish for my innocent trusting nature back? The absolute certainty I had that CJ and I were in this for life? That we'd never cheat? YES!!!!
But another part of me KNOWS that had this crap NOT happened...neither of us might have have woken up enough to start to repair what was a sinking ship.
At least now I KNOW where the holes are, some have been repaired, some are just patched over, some offer a slow leak, while others turn into geysers at times...
But at least this way, I feel less like the whole ship will just slowly drift under the deep blue...sometimes she lists, sometimes she skims over the water under the bright sun...but at least we have awareness and tools to keep her afloat now!
Might I have preferred a more gentle 2X4...like an actual threat or warning or sign of any kind??? YES...would that have been enough for me to make all of these changes, would things be playing out the same way??? I'll never know. I can only deal with What IS.
Yes, I agree to ALL of what you are saying. I have come to an ironic sort of gratitude over my H's A and the whole mess.
The best thing that can be done with tragedy is to figure out what you learned from the situation, how it can help you grow, how your experience can be used to help others.
I have had some people tell me they think it is just HORRIBLE that I grew up in an alcoholic home, suffered extreme poverty, was molested, etc., etc. the list goes on...
Some people look puzzled when I say, "yes, that was hard, but that is part of the past that made me who I am today, knowing what I know today. I like who I am, and those experiences are part of what made me who I am, so I can't totally regret them, much less feel sorry for myself.
I think this is the same perspective shift you are talking about in looking at your marraige now, isn't it?
Sorry to hijack, Jethro...but I think SB has a very good point & want to concur with it.
So...everyone...I need a reality check, as my head has been spinning and my heart has grown harder.
I have been AWOL lately trying to figure things out and trying to see if the BB causes some undue stress at times. I guess it's that double-edged sword KAW was referring to...
In any case, nothing new or dramatic in my sitch. I have been getting increasingly more frustrated with her lack of effort, however. It's not that she's not trying...it's just that she does just enough to get by. Now that I know what it takes to make things work, I expect more. Yes...yes...yes...expectations. How can I not have some? I think after everything, I'm not off-base.
In any case, my frustration got the best of me and I had a talk with her Saturday morning. It's a pattern to date. I'll mention that she's backing off on trying to "really" work on our R, she apologizes, works a little harder for about a week or so, then lets it go again. I can only imagine that this pattern will continue.
Again, it's not that she's NOT trying...it's just that she seems apathetic. I continue to feel as though she'll never REALLY love me again, and feels this way herself, but has resigned herself to live this life. She doesn't say as much and is really pretty pleasant, but I can't shake that feeling. I know if it were not true, she'd be a bit more assertive in expressing her feelings for me.
So, her response to me bringing this up was, "I'm a tough nut to crack and sometimes you are going to have to remind me. Rome wasn't built in a day." I told her firmly that I shouldn't have to remind her of anything...
In any case, since mentioning this, she has been better, but I have been backing off, withdrawing...feeling pretty crummy...reliving all of the crap. I asked a couple questions about her A the other day and she divulged further information that she had originally lied about when she was supposedly being honest with me (right after I found out about her A). This is extremely bothersome because I've taken her A, put it in a box, compartmentalized the entire thing, but now with the new information, the boundaries are yet, once again, redefined. The new information wasn't staggering...but it really hurt for whatever reason. Now I'm trying to reset the walls of that box and it's making me feel very distant from her.
I've certainly been down the last few days, and she notices, but doesn't really say anything. I think she is just trying to give me some space. She gets frustrated when I ask questions about the past, the A...not in a negative way...but she thinks whenever I bring stuff up from the past it prevents us from moving forward. Hell, I'm still trying to deal with it while she's already moving forward! She just wants to forget everything and not talk about it (however, she is willing to talk about it if I ask). To give her credit, she did say that she's happy to talk about our R, but again, doesn't feel that it helps bringing up the past.
So, what do you guys think? Do I need a 2x4 treatment? Should I just shut-up about the A now? Am I dwelling on things far too much?
let me see if I can help make any sense of this stuff for us.
Quote: I have been AWOL lately trying to figure things out and trying to see if the BB causes some undue stress at times. I guess it's that double-edged sword KAW was referring to...
you may or may not notice that from time to time I only post on my own thread...this is when the bb is getting to me...reading about the goings on and not goings on in others lives can have a tendancy to bring me down...so when I'm already in a state of confusion or just plain down..I don't read much of others stuff.
Quote: In any case, nothing new or dramatic in my sitch. I have been getting increasingly more frustrated with her lack of effort, however. It's not that she's not trying...it's just that she does just enough to get by. Now that I know what it takes to make things work, I expect more. Yes...yes...yes...expectations. How can I not have some? I think after everything, I'm not off-base.
I do recall once my c saying to me that he has had many h's in his office make the statement "she wasn't happy before now how can I make her happy" or even better is a personal example...I let h know that I need certain things...tried not to make it a "everything sucks" kinda convo but just wanted to let him know I needed a tad more as a result of all this. He was a tad defensive and his first response was "so for the rest of my life I'm going to be judged by what I do from week to week?" heck I wouldn't want that life so why should I impose it upon him just because he screwed up in the past?
we have to sit back jethro and think real hard...are we really not getting enough or are we still expecting more because of what happend...if we are expecting more because of what happend then are we not punishing our s's and therefore not forgiving them.
Quote: In any case, my frustration got the best of me and I had a talk with her Saturday morning. It's a pattern to date. I'll mention that she's backing off on trying to "really" work on our R, she apologizes, works a little harder for about a week or so, then lets it go again. I can only imagine that this pattern will continue.
what can we do to break this pattern? how are we acting while they are in "trying harder" mode. I know myself when h is in the trying harder mode (as a result of a talk or an incident) I tend to back off a bit and simply treat him as I would a friend. in other words give him a bit more leeway and drop some expectations.
Quote: Again, it's not that she's NOT trying...it's just that she seems apathetic. I continue to feel as though she'll never REALLY love me again, and feels this way herself, but has resigned herself to live this life.
are you sure you're not me?
Quote: I know if it were not true, she'd be a bit more assertive in expressing her feelings for me.
what makes you so sure? how do you "know" that she'd do anything differently?
Quote: So, her response to me bringing this up was, "I'm a tough nut to crack and sometimes you are going to have to remind me. Rome wasn't built in a day." I told her firmly that I shouldn't have to remind her of anything...
kinda sounds like the "let's just let things happen naturally" line I usually get. but I have to point out to you...why SHOULDN'T you have to remind her of anything? should she always know what you need and how you feel?
Quote: In any case, since mentioning this, she has been better, but I have been backing off, withdrawing...feeling pretty crummy...reliving all of the crap. I asked a couple questions about her A the other day and she divulged further information that she had originally lied about when she was supposedly being honest with me (right after I found out about her A). This is extremely bothersome because I've taken her A, put it in a box, compartmentalized the entire thing, but now with the new information, the boundaries are yet, once again, redefined. The new information wasn't staggering...but it really hurt for whatever reason. Now I'm trying to reset the walls of that box and it's making me feel very distant from her
well then I guess the only thing you can do once you process the new info is to stop asking for more info as it's obviously not bringing you closer together. but also be thankful that she's willing to be "honest" with more stuff now than she was before...try not to look at the previous lie but instead look at the closeness she feels that enables her to share the truth now.
Quote: I've certainly been down the last few days, and she notices, but doesn't really say anything. I think she is just trying to give me some space. She gets frustrated when I ask questions about the past, the A...not in a negative way...but she thinks whenever I bring stuff up from the past it prevents us from moving forward.
I understand how you feel but I think I can also understand how she feels...she wants to put it in the past...and also by your bringing it up and asking her about it takes her back to that place..therefore not bringing you closer.
Quote: Hell, I'm still trying to deal with it while she's already moving forward!
before my seperation I talked about ow alot, was full of questions etc...couldn't deal with it and didn't know enough to deal with it myself. when h didn't seem to want to talk about it with me..one of the things I realized is this...for the betraying partner the "healing" process is easier or faster because they actually on some level have been dealing with it since the begining of deceit..now that it's out and done with they can move on. we on the other hand are new to the info and therefore take longer to process it. imagine if you will a time in the future when you no longer even think about this time...when the a is not something that even passes your thoughts...then all of a sudden w starts to want to talk about it...wants to appologize all the time...or let you know when she get's upset with things that remind her of what she did. how would that make you feel? would you not wish that she would just get over it and put it in the past. I know it's hard to fathom a time when we won't want to hear our spouses say sorry and show empathy and remourse for what they've done...but I'd bet it could and probably would happen that way.
Quote: So, what do you guys think? Do I need a 2x4 treatment? Should I just shut-up about the A now? Am I dwelling on things far too much?
if you have to ask....I think you know the answer.
now if I could only listen to myself things would be great!
Quoting jethro: So, what do you guys think? Do I need a 2x4 treatment? Should I just shut-up about the A now? Am I dwelling on things far too much? jethro
Yes, you should shut up about it.
Why? Because you keep bringing this guy up in her mind when she is getting distance from that. And because it causes you more problems than it solves.
The one thing I've been posting about is having too many expecations. I know if I was back with ex-b, he'd not likely change much. I can't expect that he will. But I would have changed and that is enough.
You have a W who is willing to work on the R. Maybe she hasn't put in as much as you'd like, but at least she is there and putting effort in. That is really good. Instead of just talking about R - maybe you should both do things more that you both really enjoy (if you aren't already). Create some bonds again and don't push her too hard.
Quoting LL:you may or may not notice that from time to time I only post on my own thread...this is when the bb is getting to me...reading about the goings on and not goings on in others lives can have a tendancy to bring me down...so when I'm already in a state of confusion or just plain down..I don't read much of others stuff.
That's a good idea.
Quoting LL:we have to sit back jethro and think real hard...are we really not getting enough or are we still expecting more because of what happend...if we are expecting more because of what happend then are we not punishing our s's and therefore not forgiving them.
For me, it's more that I know what patterns represent what didn't work in the past and I don't want to repeat those patterns. Also, I know what it takes to draw her closer, and she knows (as I've told her a million times) what it takes to draw me closer. This is what we need to work on, and frankly, I do far more work than she...and she will admit it.
Quoting LL:what can we do to break this pattern?
Honest to God, I don't know. I feel I "give" pretty consistently while she does it in more "spurts."
Quoting LL:what makes you so sure? how do you "know" that she'd do anything differently?
Because of how she has behaved in the past, LL.
Quoting LL:why SHOULDN'T you have to remind her of anything? should she always know what you need and how you feel?
Perhaps you have a point. Thing is, I feel as though I become a broken record. Frankly, it's my opinion she knows what she needs to do, but chooses not to out of apathy.
Quoting LL:for the betraying partner the "healing" process is easier or faster because they actually on some level have been dealing with it since the begining of deceit.
Interesting point. Given what you and DFB have said, I think maybe I have to do my damnedest to stop thinking about her A and concentrate on what we are doing today. I just get hung-up when I think that she had a full-blown A for over a year...a year she also put me through hell.
Yeah, I'm dwelling on it... Okay...okay...I'll try to let it pass...
BTW, she called me while you guys were posting and asked how I was doing. I asked her why she was asking me and she said, "because you haven't been yourself lately, and it's throwing me off."
Quote: For me, it's more that I know what patterns represent what didn't work in the past and I don't want to repeat those patterns. Also, I know what it takes to draw her closer, and she knows (as I've told her a million times) what it takes to draw me closer. This is what we need to work on, and frankly, I do far more work than she...and she will admit it.
since you know that these negative patterns exist and you also are aware that she for whatever reason (let's not use the thoughts you have about why) doesn't seem aware or chooses to continue the bad patterns I think then it is up to you to be the one to change first. You recognize the patterns...instead of playing your typical same old role in the cycle why not find a new part to play...change the script..improvise and see what happens.
Quote: Honest to God, I don't know. I feel I "give" pretty consistently while she does it in more "spurts."
how can we throw away our score cards and simply give without expectations. can we notice any trends that coincide with the times that they are giving more, especially when it occurs on it's own and not after some "talk".
Quote: Perhaps you have a point. Thing is, I feel as though I become a broken record. Frankly, it's my opinion she knows what she needs to do, but chooses not to out of apathy.
can you buy a new album? sing a different song, get an updated version, pick a new tunnel to go down?
Quote: I just get hung-up when I think that she had a full-blown A for over a year...a year she also put me through hell.
when you are "hung up" and stuck in the past what good is it doing you? are things better now than they were during her a? are things getting better even if slowly? what about the current r do you like? what about the current r do you not like? what is missing from the current r?
Well, unfortunately, my remarks are not the best here.
Quoting LL:I think then it is up to you to be the one to change first. You recognize the patterns...instead of playing your typical same old role in the cycle why not find a new part to play...change the script..improvise and see what happens.
I HAVE changed first. I've been doing that all along. Do I need to "change" again? Perhaps...but again, I'm tired, LL...I just want to "be." Maybe you'd interpret that as a lack of effort, but one can only "drive" so long.
Quoting LL:how can we throw away our score cards and simply give without expectations.
Ahh...expectations. You know as well as I, LL, that we can only give for so long without expecting something in return...and frankly, for years I have done this...
Quoting LL:can you buy a new album? sing a different song, get an updated version, pick a new tunnel to go down?
So, then, how do I achieve my objective without telling her my needs, as I've been doing? I don't see how I can make it any clearer.
Quote: when you are "hung up" and stuck in the past what good is it doing you?
none
Quote: are things better now than they were during her a?
of course
Quote: are things getting better even if slowly?
Not sure. They were for a while, but maybe it's my own problems with not "getting over it."
Quote: what about the current r do you like?
She's more like her old self before the A. She's purposefully doing nice things for me. She's "softer" and more communicative.
Quote: what about the current r do you not like? what is missing from the current r?
I guess what it comes down to is I'd really like her to express to me that she wants to be with me. She's come around in other ways, such as knowing she has a lot to be thankful for with her current life. Thing is, I want her to want me. Perhaps show a little jealousy...just a little...something to give me a sign she's afraid of losing me. Is that somewhat pathetic? I WANT HER TO THROW ME A BONE!
First, LL...remarkable post! Some of the things certainly rang true for me.
Quote: we have to sit back jethro and think real hard...are we really not getting enough or are we still expecting more because of what happend...if we are expecting more because of what happend then are we not punishing our s's and therefore not forgiving them.
BINGO!!!
I think I am doing exactly this, LL. I AM expecting more now and part of that IS payback.
Quote: one of the things I realized is this...for the betraying partner the "healing" process is easier or faster because they actually on some level have been dealing with it since the begining of deceit..now that it's out and done with they can move on. we on the other hand are new to the info and therefore take longer to process it. imagine if you will a time in the future when you no longer even think about this time...when the a is not something that even passes your thoughts...then all of a sudden w starts to want to talk about it...wants to appologize all the time...or let you know when she get's upset with things that remind her of what she did. how would that make you feel? would you not wish that she would just get over it and put it in the past. I know it's hard to fathom a time when we won't want to hear our spouses say sorry and show empathy and remourse for what they've done...but I'd bet it could and probably would happen that way.
LL this is an AMAZING insight. I need to copy it over to my thread right away.
Jethro, I hear what you're saying. I can see myself months in the future, if CJ drifts into old ways, or heck continues with some current ways!! ....feeling more and more like you do. I already do sometimes.
Like with the sex issue, I'm too weary to "talk" about it anymore (for now ) but I HAVE found that making "suggestions" via e-mail (something we'd never done before) can be fun, a new way to communicate about it that is low pressure.
So you never did tell us, was your break from the BB helpful at all??? I'm on here pretty much daily and wonder sometimes.
Although right now, it works as CJ is online (listening to day 2 of the conference right now) for his course at these times.
Wait, this is YOUR thread. Sorry dude!
(((((((((((((((((((((Jethro)))))))))))))))))))))
P.S. I'd throw you a bone, hon, but it's not my bones you want
BINGO!!!
