I don't know much about your wife's side of things. What was her turning point in realizing her part of the mistakes? How did she eventually open up enough to see the whole, big picture? Was there an event that occurred? Has she read your thread here?
Taking these in reverse order:
"Has she read your thread here?"
My wife does occasionally lurk on these boards, but I don't know if she's seen this particular thread.
"How did she eventually open up enough to see the whole, big picture?"
By myself taking the first steps toward repairing our marriage, after I had read enough to have some ideas as to what to do. Within just a couple of months, I could see the positive changes I had made bearing fruit and leading her to look for changes that she could make in return. From there, we began moving forward together: faltering and regressing as we went, but steadily moving forward.
"What was her turning point in realizing her part of the mistakes?"
After plowing through a few relationship self-help books last fall, I finally found The Sex-Starved Marriage in November, which really spoke to how I had been feeling for a very long time, but had not been able to explain well enough to her. I emailed the link to Chapter 1 to my wife from work that day, and held my breath. When I got home that evening, she met me in tears. She finally "got it." To me, this was the real turning point for her.
We've had a few more mile-stones along the way since then, with my latest one being the impetus for this thread. I hope they keep coming.
Take care,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I really enjoy all of your posts, and I hope you don't mind if I bring up something you wrote in another post - to make a point of my own, not that anyone cares...but hopefully it can provide a good debate if nothing else.
In another post you said: "Pornography is, for a man, what reading a Romance Novel is, for a woman: the indulgence of a sexual fantasy for the purposes of sexual arousal. The different pathways taken by men and women to reach that state are indicative of our gender differences with regard to intimacy and sexual arousal."
Bag - I just want to make the point that pornography is an addictive substance, whereas romance novels are not.
This makes this whole argument into comparing apples and oranges. I have heard so many men make the same comparison, but what they are really saying is "don't give me crap about my porn, it isn't that big of a deal, and I feel entitled to watch it".
I am not saying this about you specifically, just the argument in general.
If a woman is a sex addict, then maybe she could create in herself an addiction to romance novels. But the novels themselves are never going to be considered an addictive substance to the masses, whereas porn is DEFINITELY an addictive substance.
Therefore, in my opinion, expecting a woman not to have a problem with her man viewing porn is the same as expecting a man not to have a problem with his woman snorting coke "once in a while".
I know that seems harsh and way over the top, but anyone who has ever had a porn addiction will know that what I am saying is true. For a person with addiction problems, the substance can be interchangable.
Some men can view porn periodically throughout their lives and never become addicted. But some people can periodically snort coke and never become addicted. Does that mean it should be ok?
Before the internet, none of this type of comparison was ever made, because it was irrelevant. Men (and women) went for 100,000 years without access to heavy porn and did just fine...and now suddenly, every man seems to feel entitled to use this addictive substance and find reasons that justify it to the rest of the world.
Again Bagheera - I don't mean you personally. I just mean this very strange argument that compares two completely different things, one addictive substance and one article of pulp and print.
If you want to respond that would be great, if you want to avoid the topic that is fine too. I am not meaning to "call you out". Just wanted to voice myself.
You're welcome to respond, Dance -- I don't mind at all.
I think that we'll simply have to agree to disagree on the basic premise, however.
I know of many women, my wife included, who have read hundreds, if not thousands of romance novels, in their lifetime, and who will continue to do so. We don't call this an "addiction," but it IS a pretty strong, life-long draw for many, many women.
I have also seen the consumption of romance novels cause many misconceptions with regard to sexual expectations in women. Many young women EXPECT sex to be like in their fantasy, fictional books: with men who are supposed to mind-reading, super performers, who can give them sky-rocketing orgasms with the slightest touch. It makes us mere mortal men look pretty dismal, and disappointing to those young women.
I did mention in my post that:
"The only time pornography is a problem is if it is taken to an extreme, as with almost anything. If it becomes addictive and (I should have said "or" here) the only way that someone can become aroused, then it's time for some counseling."
So I do agree with you that it can cause problems of addition and other sexual problems. But the occasional viewing of pornography, like the occasional glass of wine, is not a cause for major concern, IN MY VIEW (as I said in the beginning of that post).
There is also, of course, the issue of sexual exploitation of the (usually) young women involved. Romance novels don't involve real people: pornography does. I do not, repeat, DO NOT support or agree with the sexual exploitation of women, period. I'm sure there are some who think ALL pornography would fall into this category, but I disagree. If the act occurs between consenting, mature, over 21 adults, then that is their choice. Does pornography objectify women? Yes. Does pornography objectify men? Yes. Everyone is reduced to a pure sex object without personality, beyond what story-line happens to be injected. This isn't necessarily wrong, as all of us at one time or another has looked at another person as a sex object, both men and women.
I do apologize if the post offended you, DanceQueen. I knew it would be provocative. I know that pornography offends many women, and they don't like it when their husbands view it. My desire was to ask you to 'get outside of your own skin' and see the man's viewpoint somewhat.
I agree with you that erotica and romance novels are safer than pornography for both those who make it and view it. No arguments there.
BUT, my original point still remains: Men frequently view pornography to indulge a sexual fantasy and become sexually aroused. Women frequently read erotica (or romance novels) to indulge a sexual fantasy and become sexually aroused. So think twice before putting down your romance novel to yell at your husband for looking at some pornography.
That was my point, DanceQueen.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Thanks Bagheera. I do get your point. I was not offended by your original statement, and I agree with nearly everything you have written in this response, too. Except that I do still compare porn to cocaine, not a glass of wine.
The reasons "why" a man would want to look at it are true and your subject was covered well on that point. We all want an escape into fantasy, and some of us want to do that visually and some of us want to do that mentally.
Also I appreciate your stance on exploitation. You are clearly not a caveman! :0)
But I still do equate porn as a HIGHLY addictive substance, and most men are not like you. However, to a man like you, where you seem so grounded, mature, reasonable, thoughtful, etc, and that you can view porn occasionally without becoming addicted, I am sure that to you - my point will never be heard. Because in your case, you are never going to become addicted to it.
My theory is that in the next 20 years, there will be so many men with intimacy and sexual problems directly resulting from porn addiction, that there will be a mental health emergency. And then a backlash will happen, similar to the backlash of the 60's and 70's. After those free love, free drug years, people realized that there are costs to pay when you think something is free. I believe this will happen with the porn phenomenon as well. Men like you will be saying "I don't get what the big deal is". But men (and women) whose lives were destroyed by an addictive substance will be saying "if only I had realized how addictive that substance really was and how it was damaging my mind and my body as I was using it".
Again, we did just fine as a human race without access to heavy porn for 100,000 years. There is no data to support that it is a good or necessary thing. There IS however, data to support that it is a highly addictive substance.
So....I mostly want you to know I am not offended, and I am still only making a debate on a larger topic. Nothing personal at all about you, your wife, me, my man, etc.
In fact, I like porn. And my man and I don't have a conflict there. But the reason for that is because he has been a bad boy in his past, and he knows where to draw the line, he has seen people go down with that ship, he knows how to turn himself on without any visual aids. We have an agreement to only watch it together...and that agreement protects HIM as much as it protects me...because I am not an angel and I need help staying on the right path, too. Just like all humans. Lucky for me, my man will help me and he will allow me to help him.
Also, he came to these conclusions about porn way before I ever met him. I didn't tell him anything new about it...he knows.
Good debate, Bag. You rock.
DanceQueen
(P.S. I detest romance novels and have never read one).
I was going through a box of stuff from the early years of my marriage today, and found some of my old 'underway diaries:' little notebooks I would write letters, thoughts, and notes to myself and my wife in while I was on board the USS Hawkbill (SSN-666) and a few hundred feet under the Pacific ocean somewhere (I was a submarine nuclear plant operator in the U.S. Navy when we were first married). Our sexual relationship had already started to become rocky, coincident with our first child and my being out to sea much of the time. One entry caught my eye:
2 July 1987 (an excerpt)
"When I want to make love, it it not just a physical release, It is because I want to be close to you, loved by you -- to give you pleasure and show how much I love you. I want it to be a true union of two spirits; an extremely close time for each of us; a time to love, and bask in the love of the other."
This made me sigh: it's a wonderful expression of the male half of the Marriage Catch 22, from a 26 year old. It would be another 20 years before we would each stop carrying around all of the classic misunderstandings about each other, and stop making all of the classic mistakes with each other, and really start to set things right.
So to all you kids out there struggling with young marriages: don't do as my wife and myself did (and many others for that matter). Learn to understand and meet the unique needs of your spouse, opposite sex partner that s/he is, and teach them about you, encouraging them to meet your unique needs in return.
The Golden Rule doesn't work in marriage: you cannot treat your spouse the way in which YOU would like to be treated and expect them to be happy -- they won't be. It's so much more enriching and enjoyable to serve that lovely member of the opposite that you married when you stop trying to force them to be like you, and really appreciate, deeply appreciate, who they actually are.
/exit[Soap Box]
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
"The Golden Rule doesn't work in marriage: you cannot treat your spouse the way in which YOU would like to be treated and expect them to be happy -- they won't be. It's so much more enriching and enjoyable to serve that lovely member of the opposite that you married when you stop trying to force them to be like you, and really appreciate, deeply appreciate, who they actually are."
That is really profound! No wonder I don't understand why my H is so angry all the time...
