I do think that everything from the greeting cards to the "Promise Keepers" rallies to the endless stream of self-help books and TV gurus do put most of the onus on the men. "Romance her", "court her again", "help more around the house", etc.
In fact, I can only think of ONE mainstream author who addressed the wife's role in this, and for that, Dr. Laura got pretty well crucified.
Well near...I don't subscribe to the all husbands all the time camp. I promise, I do not.
I just read LOTS of posts on many forums, so I see many men saying the same things.
I ALSO read lots of women's posts and see them saying the same things too and yes I DO get on their cases and try to point out their contribution to the problem all the time. I'm an avid reader of anything having to do with relationships and spirituality, and both types of literature I read are always about how you can change yourself, not another person.
Near- I had originally responded to you on your other thread, I now remember and I just re-read it. At some point you simply stopped responding to my points to you...so I just assumed that you didn't want to hear what a woman had to say or what I specifically had to say and I left your thread.
Baghera - sorry for threadjacking. Back to your original programming.
PDT - Have you read John Gray books? In his theory, the onus is on the woman to regain her autonomy and stop expecting her man to provide her life for her.
I want to concur that as a woman, my desire is definitely going to be related to the amount of strength and masculinity my man exhibits. Sometimes strength and masculinity can be expressed in the softer forms of support, caring, and romance. These are a turn-on too, but they will not produce white hot desire. They will only produce a warm fuzzy loving feeling, which may or may not be turned into desire. It needs more ingredients to turn into desire.
I need to feel my man is trying to SEDUCE me. There is a big difference between him coming at me initiating sex, and SEDUCING me.....Wives need the same seduction that girlfriends and conquests need.
A lesson I now have etched in my brain, Dance.
Just as with the Marriage Catch-22, here too the positive feedback-loop aspect of relationships can really get in the way. After years of rejections in a strained SSM, the desire to pursue and seduce, I would even say the ABILITY to pursue and seduce is just not there --> the layers of hurt and resentment are too deep. I can remember a former marriage counselor advising me to romance and court my wife again and my immediate emotional response to this was anger. Why is the onus being placed entirely on my shoulders? Why should I set myself up for yet another hurt?
So instead you find yourself avoiding a direct sexual approach altogether (in a attempt to protect yourself), and you and your wife end up doing this little indirect verbal dance on the nights that you're interested in sex. You say "How are you feeling tonight? Are you tired?", and then your wife has to go through this whole series of mental calculations:
Did he just see a tired look on my face and is just asking? OR is he really testing the waters for sex later on? If I say "Yes, I've had a long day." is he going to take that as yet another no? I hate hurting him. I wish he would just pursue me directly and then I'd be able to respond to him positively: this nibbling-around-the-edges approach is a such a turn-off!
In our experience so far, the only way to break out of this loop is for both partners to TURN TOWARDS EACH OTHER with understanding and compassion. My initial attempts at being more direct, confident, and masculine in pursuing my wife sexually are probably not going to be all that suave and seductive. They may even feel a bit contrived to both of us -- we're out of practice. For my wife's part, she has to really take that Just do it! idea to heart and stifle the old, knee-jerk, habitual "No." Each partner has to take small steps towards the other, and be forgiving if someone stumbles -- it's gonna happen, especially after years of dysfunction. But we can, working together, get back to where we want to be.
Did I mention that this is a long, difficult process?
For most folks on this board, the big hurdle, the MAJOR and NECESSARY hurdle, is getting your spouse on board and working with you to fix your marriage. As Yoda would say, on this all depends.
Take care,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Great post. Sounds like there is a true effort being made there to move together. Now, oh sage, how do the rest of us neophytes get our wives off the dime?
Now, oh sage, how do the rest of us neophytes get our wives off the dime?
Sage-brush maybe, in its most gnarly, stinky form.
To answer your (rhetorical) question, continue my Star Wars shtick, and quote Han Solo: "That's the trick, ain't it?"
Every marriage is as different as the two people in it AND its history. I only know what worked for me, and what I've read works for others. You've got a good place to start now: gain your own self-respect back, and then see if she will come around to respecting you again also.
Safe journeys,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, SSM -- and most of the other books for the "clashing libidos" couples -- put forth that success can be achieved with just ONE spouse starting the process. "Change yourself -- GAL, act "as if", etc. -- and your partner will eventually HAVE to change in response."
You are describing that awkward verbal dance so eloquently, especially your wife's part of it, that you are really showing us that you can and will succeed at this.
I don't know much about your wife's side of things. What was her turning point in realizing her part of the mistakes? How did she eventually open up enough to see the whole, big picture? Was there an event that occured? Has she read your thread here?
and PDT - you are correct, your partner will not HAVE to change in response to changes you do for yourself. I don't know your situation and haven't read your thread. But I think the point is that you do those changes for yourself and not in order to spark them to change. I'm sure others have said that to you before and I am just repeating. Sorry if it sounds kinda lame after hearing it so many times.
I do understand how frustrating all of this is! When I was going through it I was literally having suicidal thoughts at different times because of it! I know that simple words may make it sound easier than it is. But "easy" is not the goal of any good endeavor. Wish I had realized that during my marriage!
Unfortunately, SSM -- and most of the other books for the "clashing libidos" couples -- put forth that success can be achieved with just ONE spouse starting the process.
I agree with the above wholeheartedly. The operative word in "success can be achieved with just ONE spouse starting the process." is STARTING: not finishing, not even getting to the half-way point. In the beginning, at least one of the two people stuck in intransigent mode has to be willing to put down their gun, pick up an olive branch, and make the first moves toward fixing things.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
"Change yourself -- GAL, act "as if", etc. -- and your partner will eventually HAVE to change in response."
There are no guarantees, and even The SSM book contains a section in Part III (for the HD partner) on Accepting the fact that despite your best efforts, things may never be what you want them to be. I hated that little section, because last November I was afraid my wife would read it, slam the book shut, and hand it back to me saying "See, you just have to accept things just as they are." Thankfully, that isn't what happened.
What are your choices, Puppy?
(1) Accept the status quo, (2) get a divorce and try to start over with someone new, or (3) make some positive changes in yourself and how you treat your spouse, and hope that they begin to return the favor.
I still think (3) is the best option, even without a guarantee.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
