It has been a few months since my Original Thread (started 12/06/07) where I talked about my own situation, so I thought I would check in and share a bit of the progress that my wife and I have made in improving our relationship.
Some time ago, someone on this forum wrote that the amount of time it would take to recover a broken marriage is on the order of one month for every one year of marriage: so for a 22 year marriage like mine, we are looking at an approximately two-year recovery time, and that's with BOTH partners on board and working to make things better. It's not an easy process, and the amount of old baggage to be sorted through (sometimes that you didn't even know was there) can be daunting. To get some help in this department, last February my wife and I began seeing a marriage counselor who is a certified individual, couples, and sex therapist, and we find ourselves utilizing him in all three capacities at times. I can't stress enough the important of finding the right counselor/therapist --> finding one who knows what the heck they're doing and who can remain a good advocate for BOTH points of view simultaneously is difficult, but doable if you shop around.
Last December when I posted, I reported on that glorious breakthrough day when my wife read Chapter 1 of The SSM and finally understood the vital connection between physical intimacy and emotional intimacy for a man. Well, this month it was my turn, and after a series of talks, I finally understood the vital connection between being a confident, masculine, and dominant male and attracting the sexual interests of my wife.
There is, of course, some irony here, as only recently i wrote:
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
In other words, women are attracted to and turned on by masculinity in the same way that men are attracted to and turned on by femininity. EDITED--ADVERTISING NOT ALLOWED.
This was not, however, the path the I had to walk.......
Oh, ho, but was I wrong. This is indeed a path that I have to walk, whilst removing this shoe from my mouth. As I talked about in Alimari's Thread, I apparently bought in to the calls for a sensitive, feeling, ever egalitarian man a bit too much with regard to my relationships with women. In a nutshell (and being a little bit facetious here), it turns out that the man the feminists cried out for on paper is not a man they would actually want to sleep with.
In reviewing the
EDITED--ADVERTISING NOT ALLOWED.
-related posts here on the board, the path that I have to walk is shorter than what some have had to take. I know myself, my purpose, and my goals. I proved my "manhood" to myself long ago, and am comfortable and confident within it. I married a strong, assertive woman, who, in turn, married a stronger, more assertive man --> and it's time that I stopped keeping him in check so much with regard to my relationship, both in and out of the bedroom.
Take care, all,
Bagheera
Last edited by sgctxok; 05/19/0810:26 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
It wasn't: it was a reference to one of several books that I have found helpful and cited in my posts here. However, the moderators can edit posts as they see fit, and this site is supposed to be dedicated to Michele's books and the principles described therein, so I'll keep that in mind in future.
It's all good.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
"...the man the feminists cried out for on paper is not a man they would actually want to sleep with."
You have struck gold!
To a greater or lesser extent, men and women are all a mixture of masculine and feminine traits. Many modern men, particularly the kind that want to marry and have children, tend to have more of the sensitive, empathetic, nurturing feminine traits. There are also a large number of men that, due to their upbringing or other societal reasons, have been conditioned to seek feminine approval. Women that have a maternal instinct i.e. who also want to marry and have a family, find those feminine traits in a man attractive at first, usually enough to get married anyway.
But once the honeymoon and the children are out of the way, these men and the women who originally thought they would make such great husbands, are left asking themselves: Why are there no sparks flying in the bedroom?
The answer is that great sex springs from mutual attraction, not from being a good breadwinner or housewife or parent. Sharing financial responsibility, housework and childcare are to be commended, but can lead to many couples becoming indistinguishable and asexual. There is thus no polarity and no sexual spark. That's a great shame.
The answer for the majority of couples - I really think so - is for the man and the woman to each reclaim and "play up" their masculinity and femininity.
For the man that means strength (physical and mental), courage, presence, direction, energy, passion and relentless optimism for the future. The majority of men in SSMs have lost these qualities, or are waiting for their woman to give them sex before showing them, or are only "faking" them in order to get sex (women can sense this), or never really had these qualities to begin with.
The good news is that any man who is prepared to step up to the plate and accept that being masculine is his responsibility and no-one else's, can cultivate his manhood to an astonishing degree. Masculine qualities can be seen in other men, read about, learned and developed. All this requires is a genuine desire for change, discipline and time.
That process can have a truly profound effect, and not just in the bedroom.
Strong&Alive
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
For the man that means strength (physical and mental), courage, presence, direction, energy, passion and relentless optimism for the future. The majority of men in SSMs have lost these qualities, or are waiting for their woman to give them sex before showing them......
I'm not sure that I agree. I think there are many reasons why a couples' sexual relationship may falter, and it's often the first thing to go when a marriage becomes strained. Each SSM is different.
I will agree that in a long-term SSM, where the husband is the higher-desire partner and he gets turned down regularly and repeatedly over the years, there will be damage to his sense of masculinity. My own self-esteem in the areas of sexual attractiveness and sexual skill has a big, yellow UNDER REPAIR sign on it. But this is just one aspect of what I have to work on right now.
The second aspect is in regard to how I've approached my wife and the relationship in general, and how it was a turn-off to her. I've never had a problem being masculine or being a man out amongst 'the guys,' either at work or at play. But with my wife, I've always been much softer (when I wasn't being angry or distant or withdrawn ), because I thought that was the way I was supposed to be. As I've mentioned, part of this was due to growing up during the sexual revolution, where the old 'Leave it to Beaver' paradigm was under major revision, and part of it was due to not wishing to emulate the household that I grew up in, with a domineering father, submissive mother, and both of them miserable. So for me, the change I am currently undergoing is not a matter of discovering or developing my masculinity, but one of LIBERATING it within the context of my relationship with my wife. To be a bit tongue-in-cheek, this strong, feminine woman wants a strong, masculine man to push against --> and when she pushes, I had better not budge!
It's important to note, however, that there were several other major issues that had to be taken care of first in our relationship, before this issue of roles and masculinity/femininity could be addressed. So while my little epiphany in this area caused several puzzles pieces to suddenly fall into place, the foundation had to be firmly in place for this change to happen.
Take care, all,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
You are very wise and it sounds like you and your wife are on the road to recovering your marriage. I'm so happy to read success stories. Your attitude is what is going to make this a happy ending. Too many times (not picking on anyone specifically) I read men's stories about their wives not wanting sex anymore or not being "into it" enough or never intiating sex, and yet these same men really don't take any suggestions to heart. They simply are stumped by their wives behavior and they can't seem to move forward into the mode of positive change.
So you and your attitude are definitely refreshing to read!
As a woman - who used to be married to a man who "didn't get it" - it pains me to read men's stories who are floundering. I wish I could give them advice but normally, they simply cannot understand that their attitude is the main problem. The same was true with my ex-husband.
So back to you...
I want to concur that as a woman, my desire is definitely going to be related to the amount of strength and masculinity my man exhibits. Sometimes strength and masculinity can be expressed in the softer forms of support, caring, and romance. These are a turn-on too, but they will not produce white hot desire. They will only produce a warm fuzzy loving feeling, which may or may not be turned into desire. It needs more ingredients to turn into desire.
I need to feel my man is trying to SEDUCE me. There is a big difference between him coming at me initiating sex, and SEDUCING me. If you are a man and you don't know what this difference is, you need to find out pronto! Being able to seduce me includes those masuline qualities I mentioned above. Look at it this way - - when you were single and you wanted to seduce a woman, you went about it in a holistic way, correct? As in, you thought out every angle, you bought the flowers, you made the flirty comments and compliments, you placed the hand on the knee at precisely the right time with precisely the right sexy eyes placed upon her body, you made sexual innuendos that you knew would make her stir, and you were being very HONEST with your own manly desires, as in, you were following them to their natural conclusion...having sex with a woman you desired....sound familiar? Wives need the same seduction that girlfriends and conquests need. This is why so many wives are vulnerable to a man outside the marriage who puts these seductive moves on her. A lot of times she hasn't felt that seduction since before she was married!
Another point is (please brace yourselves, men) that a lot of men simply don't have good skills as a lover. How you are supposed to gain those skills after you are married and your wife has shut down sexually, I'm not sure what to suggest to you. But watching porn for ideas is NOT the right way! A lot of men simply don't know what it takes to be a good lover to a woman. I will give a big hint - - it starts with being a good kisser.
Baghera, thanks for posting this. I am sorry if I side-tracked you. I just want to concur and also offer my two cents. Please keep up the good work!
Too many times (not picking on anyone specifically) I read men's stories about their wives not wanting sex anymore or not being "into it" enough or never initiating sex, and yet these same men really don't take any suggestions to heart. They simply are stumped by their wives behavior and they can't seem to move forward into the mode of positive change.
It's incredibly hard, Dance. I would have sounded just like them a couple of years ago. You feel entangled in vines of anger, frustration, resentment, and self-righteousness, and honestly can't move an inch until you can relax and let go enough to loosen their grip on you (and your grip on them).
For me to begin this process, it took a six-month long job-related separation, with myself and my wife on opposite ends of the country; a cold, cloudy, gloomy winter when I hadn't lived in snow country in years; and an honest to goodness Mid-life Crisis where I was (figuratively) visited by the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present, and Future and forced to really take stock of myself, my relationships, and where everything were headed. It didn't look pretty. If I was to live a long, happy life, I knew that things had to change drastically, and the only person that I could change was myself. That realization is the first step.
Now, most folks probably don't have to go through a gut-wrenching MLC to reach this point, especially if their marriage has only been broken for a few years, rather than the 20+ mine had been. But I tend to give these guys a break -- I've been there, and it's hard as heck to get out of those vines.
I'm also lucky, extremely and gratefully lucky, that I have a woman who's love for me stayed true, and who was, herself, able to break free and start moving down this path that we now walk together.
Take care,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I'm also lucky, extremely and gratefully lucky, that I have a woman who's love for me stayed true, and who was, herself, able to break free and start moving down this path that we now walk together.
Absoluely beautiful and true. Wonderful post and good for you~!
For the man that means strength (physical and mental), courage, presence, direction, energy, passion and relentless optimism for the future. The majority of men in SSMs have lost these qualities, or are waiting for their woman to give them sex before showing them, or are only "faking" them in order to get sex (women can sense this), or never really had these qualities to begin with.
I have to say I kind of agree with this statement.... it makes a lot of sense... while my H got frustrated with me for losing my drive and becoming LD~ he shut down and was no longer the Man I had Married.
in all his complaining for me to step it up he even said to me... " when you change and do this for me... I will give you all the things you are asking for."
And I also remember saying to my friend on the phone you know when hubby does"X" it really does not turn me on, I want him to be a Man.
I thought OMG~ what an epiphany~!!!!!! I never had really given it much thought but I heard myself say this so to speak and it made sense.... NO I dont want him to be a caveman and drag me by my hair.. I want respect but I do also need him to be a Man... a Real Man..... to get me hot.
I think we were discussing how he used to let his Mom manipulate him and wouldnt stand up to her.... and I said That turns off when he does not stand up for me and our kids. Huge turn off.
Great post SA ~ as usual!
Just my 2 cents and I hope I made sense,,, I sometimes have a hard time putting in posts what I mean! Take care ~B and keep up the good work... Isnt it amazing when you finally UNDERSTAND~
OOOOPS!