no expectations 6

[plentyhope]

Hey Peace,
Thanks - I hope you have fun tomorrow night too. It's good your H is being considerate towards you and the kids - letting you know about him being gone. He seems to be trying to be pleasant and cooperative. Enjoy your break.
-PH

[Rollercoasterider]

he looked at me like he knew deep inside he was doing this really disgusting shameful thing against our M yet he cant stop himself

Take that look as genuine. He is disgusted and ashamed and simultaneously unable to stop. At the same time, realize that as you said, his knowing this was deep down.

all the hurt he causes all 3 of us doesnt matter because he has to do it and justifies it in himself as much as he can until his concious speaks to him in the quiet of his day

If the hurt he is causing you did not matter, he would not feel disgusted and ashamed. Perhaps he is justifying it to himself, or perhaps he is trying to make it seem so publicly--to provide the illusion that he believes in what he is doing. Afterall, there would be less doubt about him being mentally unstable if he were acting against his own beliefs.

Detach, GAL, and refrain from all contact
By concentrating on yourself, you're giving your marriage a better chance to survive.

Tia
ive gone dim before
I spoke with DB coach a few weeks ago
not sure if i want to go NC
In my M , I was absent a lot didnt pay too much attention to H
when I went dim, it reminded me of old behavior
dont think its the right timing now

I agree with Tia. It doesn't seem a Last Resort to me, it is something that is, I feel, a standard tool in the DB/Standing arsenal.
And as for the concern that you didn't him enough attention in your marriage and thus you need to show a change... I see this precise issue as a concern from so many LBSs. Past neglect does need to be rectified, but not until the future. You are not in the Future yet, you are Standing in the Gap between your old marriage and a rebuilt new marriage. Your changes will come through and learned even more in the rebuilding phase.

I was one of those neglectful spouses too. Sweetheart is clingy and needy. He seeks comfort from me. And when in comfort, there is no motivation to change and continue to grow.
Right now is not the time for you to be Wife. If you consider that to be a person who meets his needs and provides comfort. Doing those things (too much) is enabling and creates a Cake-Eater.

charlene cares
she said if God has placed this desire of restored M in your heart
don't give up

So ask yourself Do I want my marriage restored?
Notice what the question is not. It did not address the process, only the end result of a process. It's not about whether you want to Stand; it's about what you can have as a result of Standing. The question to be paired is not Do I want to Stand? but rather Will I Stand?

and I have faith, but that is me
H has no faith in our Situation
he has given up and believes it is over
I feel sad for him as well

Depression is Hopelessness. He believes it is over, but what is there for him to see that would show him differently?
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. - Hebrews 11:1
Recall that since he is presently lacking in Faith, he must have some sort of evidence if Hope. But often such evidence is lacking at this stage of MLC.

MLCers are so selfish, doing whatever it takes to get through the day.

That last phrase is key; they are doing whatever it takes to get through, whatever they feel or perceive it takes to merely survive long enough for one moment to become the next moment.

I said bye "Im praying for you" "hope it all works out"
he stopped I think amazed that I would be praying for him
he turned around and said it always works out
I do pray for H and I am going to remind him I am praying for him on a regular basis

What did you say in response to him when he said "it always works out. "? Sometimes such words are said with another meaning, and other times they are unaware of what they are saying. Either way, you have a specific meaning. Respond with confidence and a smile that it WILL work out. Speak with a reassuring tone.

Considering he's in a crisis, will the reminder(s) make him feel defensive or will they make him feel loved and cared for? If it was me, I would pray about how I'd remind him and also when.

This is an excellent point. I feel what you did was just enough, but be cautious, continuing may be overboard. So a single reminder may be fine, but multiple reminders may instead remind them of how they are not as 'good' as you.

he said who cares what calls I get

Your wife. We are married and standing in our home. Phone calls from inappropriate people are not to be answered in the presence of me or our children.

the outburst my H had...is another way to distant himself since last night we probably connected too much and now he has to put things back in perspective
...b/c I was the problem
every outburst on his part can reinforce that reality
...or else that would mean the problem would be HIM

Precisely. Incidents of positive connection are often followed by what feels like steps backwards. There is a fear of the closeness. A fear that since they are not yet stable, they will fail and hurt you more, a fear that you will get the wrong idea, a fear that does not become fully realized due to avoidance...fear of admission that the problems are internal.

The anger is his response to that guilt

Yes, but Anger is also a response to so many other fears. Anger is Depression turned outward and Depression is Anger turned inward. Covert Depression is often manifested through Anger which may have a chemical response that alleviates Depressive feelings. Anger is another method of avoidance. It is not pleasure, as are some Replay activities, but it is still effective at avoiding Overt Depression.

Jim Conway talked about acceptance being like a wave coming to shore and how it builds.

You discussed the cyclical nature of the tide, how waves come and go. But also consider the proportion of force that is noticeable above the surface versus that below.
For a more visible analogy, consider an iceberg. Only about 10% of the mass of an iceberg is above the surface. Your MLCer is processing things internally and most are not noticeable during the crisis, or during much of the crisis. He appears to be moving slowly because you cannot see the growth. Something you told him a year ago is beneath the surface. It is filed away, but available for processing when he is capable. Perhaps this is one reason Time is twisted.

he hasn't moved a bit inwardly since this began ...all to avoid growth.

No, not to avoid growth. He fears facing the unknown; progress is slow because he is attempting to a void exposure of what he feels must be his true Self. Someone he believes must be a horrible person.

I"m sorry you feel that way"
Seems like this is taught to be the programmed response to MLCers here on the boards. I've never really understood it nor have I tried it because, to me, it seems so disingenuous and patronizing. At least that's how I'd see it if anyone ever said it to me. Not to defend your H in any way, but I can understand why he'd be ticked off if it wasn't said with true sincerity.

When the phrase is first used, it is often not said with sincerity. It is part of Fake it 'til you make it. But sincerity can come with as a person begins to understand what the phrase means. It is not an agreement or permission, it is an acceptance of another person's emotions, and thus a validation. Even so, the phrase will not always be spoken with validatory sincerity. There were times I used it with a tone meaning well that's too bad or tough.
But for the most part, I speak with sincere compassion when using the phrase.

How can I coexsist with this reality that is so unpleasant and hurtful...and H just pretends and covers his eyes to my reality

What is it about the reality that is hurtful? Really? Remember that we choose our emotions. Though he may be behaving in ways that are considered hurtful and would be hurtful to most, you can still choose joy.
You can choose both. Face it, you cannot go through life avoiding pain. But you can choose joy even amidst pain.
Does he cover is eyes to your reality, or is he blind to it?
There is a difference, the first includes choice.
How horrible Depression must be if it robs a person of choice.

he is in limbo too
he may think he has moved on ,but has he
he has no real place of his own that he can bring kids to
He could get an apt and offer to have kids sleep there every other weekend like other men do
he left a nice house and now he(rents a room)
he visits 4x aweek ..seems like a lot

He has created for himself an extended temporary existence.

why doesn't he just file and move on

Because that would be a step toward permanence.

I feel like he keeps me baited

You are interpreting his actions as though they are done with you in mind. It is for himself. Leading you on is side effect of keeping you available for his personal motivations.

I feel like I could move on if I knew he was really done

Move on for your Self. Moving on is something we all should do; it is not mutually exclusive from Standing; it is not the same as giving up without the possibility of rebuilding in the future.

but am I fooling myself

It has been just over a year for you and you have a rather slow MLCer--he seems passive, and has fewer angry outbursts. He doesn't live for long periods in Monster as some do. What does this mean?
Does it mean he is more decent, that he treats you better?
If so, does this make him a stronger or healthier MLCer?
Or does he have some of those same emotions as those in Monster, but is better at suppressing them? Are his emotions more bottled up? and if so, what is it going to take for their release?
In Your Husband's Midlife Crisis, Sally Conway says that if she wants her marriage, Jim asks a wife to "commit herself to living with the situation for as long as five years. "

You have spent a lot of the past year believing, as many do, that your husband's MLC will be shorter than average; he will be the special case. I've said it before; this belief has a negative effect of making the LBS less tolerant; she crashes sooner than those with more realistic Time expectations.
There is the possibility that those who express their emotions in Monster have less Limbo and perhaps go through, not fast, but faster than those who seem milder. I'm not saying this is so; it's merely a thought. I'm also not saying Monster is thus good. What I'm saying is that suppressing emotions is not beneficial in this.

H likes his 2 worlds

Likes is perhaps not an accurate term. There is no pleasure in his Limbo. But not moving forward and not making decisions is easier, and one of those worlds is providing some comforts.

IS It Worth IT?
I believe it is ..b/c ultimately the growth we gain by our stand for ourselves and our kids must be huge

To answer that, you must look at the various outcomes and determine the gains from each. Regardless of the outcome, you will have positive benefits if you choose.
If he comes home to rebuild
Consider whether a new marriage with him healthy and grown--new and improved--is worth it. You chose to marry him before, would you choose to marry him with improvements? That is the outcome for positive rebuilding.
But is it worth it if he Re-Turns rather than Re-Builds, if he tried to come BACK? If he continues to suppress rather than grow and move forward?
At that point, the journey is hopefully not complete. Some come home this way and rebuilding is still ahead, but it is not part of the present. But you get to decide whether you continue together.
What are the benefits from this scenario--from making an effort even if you eventually separate again?
What will you have learned?
Will this experience and growth benefit you in other relationships?

He Never Comes Home
One of you eventually files, or you keep it legal and nothing else.
How have you grown as a person?
What did you learn?
How has this journey and your effort to Stand benefited you--versus kicking him to the curb in the beginning?
Consider my question from above: Will this experience and growth benefit you in other relationships?

Is it a waste to Stand for a few years when a great guy is available a week, month, or even a year after Bomb Drop?
Did you destroy an opportunity for happiness with someone else?
Standing is relationship school for present and future relationships. The overarching goal may be to rebuild the original/present relationship, but it is not the only purpose.

ask God for a sign to show you whether he's going to restore your marriage.

But at what point do you stop looking for signs? Is the lack of a sign a sign? What if you received a sign that was positive for restoration a year ago? Should you still seek signs? (I'm not asking whether you should seek to communicate with God; that is not the same thing.)
Often, God's signs do not include a Timeline, but out subconscious (or conscious) adds one anyway, interpreting it as part of the sign from God. This can have the same negative effects as the when the LBS believes her MLCer will come through faster.

Also consider what you need to do given the sign you received.
God's signs do not free you from actions, you can choose passivity, but God's signs are potentials; they are not guarantees. Choosing passivity--to not do something (even when something is stepping back, letting go and giving it to God) is not God's intention.
Are you recognizing the tools God is providing? Or are you the man waiting for rescue who turns down the Red Cross rescue team because God promised he would save him.. The Red Cross was God's tool!
If God promised you would win the lottery, would you help him out and purchase a ticket, or wait fro one to fall from the sky?

We validate, love unconditionally and they act like we are the bad guys.
I wonder sometimes if this is the right approach.
Are we reinforcing negative behavior????

This is an excellent question, and unfortunately the answer is often Yes.
As with everything in life, Standing is about balance. Imagine if you did not validate or love unconditionally. What if you took the extreme opposite: told him everything he did and felt was completely wrong and hated him without condition. That probably wouldn't bode well for reconciliation either.

What is Unconditional Love, Agape?
Agape is Love in all circumstances; it is without judgment or condition. Love is a gift to be freely given. It is soft yet firm. Loving does not require one to lie across the doormat and allow oneself to be abused. Such actions enable poor and abusive choices and behaviours. Yet Agape is Love amidst wise and poor choices and behaviours.
I copied that from my notes--and perhaps I've pasted it before. For this discussion, what seems key is that Agape is soft yet firm: Tough Love. The thing it is into is Mothering and yet it is Mothering that many often confuse with Agape. Mothering, hovering, coddling, things beyond nurturing.
Unconditional Love and Validation include Boundaries, to be without Boundaries is to offer an all you can eat Cake-Eater's feast.

H has said he doesnt want D
he likes things the way they are
he rents a room from friend and visits 4x a week

If he likes things the way they are and you do not, why are you enabling him to keep things as they are? You continue to insist No Contact isn't right yet. It's become a refrain for you. Consider that this is your fear.

Do I want this back????????

Of course not.

I have a real chance here to get out

but what is it you are getting out of?
Getting something BACK?
Having a relationship with a depressed MLCer?
We all want out of that. But if you make a definitive decision to get out regardless of his changes after your decision...what else are you getting out of?

dont know if H can really change

This is where Faith enters in. You are feeling his Hopelessness.

I cant take seeing him all the time and acting like were friends
and im ok with it all

But you do take it; you are taking it? Why?
Ask yourself what it is about No Contact that you fear.

Do you fear he will go into Monster?
If so, consider the benefit of no longer suppressing.

Do you fear he really will go away?
Consider he may need greater separation to face full Depression. Enabling him to hang by a thread is not helping.

I only want this restoration if our M can be better and ive done my part and more and H is still checked out

Yes, still... Standing builds a foundation, it Paves The Way toward rebuilding; it is not in itself the rebuilding process.

I have done everything to make him see our M was worth saving

To help not make.
But doing this while a person is in the throes of a Depression does no good. It's a waste to do this when the person is incapable of seeing and/or understanding.

said he felt controlled in our M ...
he said he lost himself...
I agreed we did have problems...
He then said this is why he left.

To the MLCer:
So instead of trying to fix the problems and rebuild, you felt the best resolution was to runaway from them?
It doesn't seem as though that has yielded an improvement and greater in your life. On the contrary, you seem worse off.
That last part is a lengthy version of Dr. Phil's 'How's that workin' for ya? '

I was so afraid to tell my ex my feelings. I thought it would push him away. It actually helped

Venting and revealing your emotions are not always Backslides.

when he dropped the kids off
I was here and just about to leave
I asked if he got my VM he said NO
he asked me not to talk or say anything or he would leave

It is your house and thus acceptable to tell him he should leave if he doesn't want to hear you speaking.
I live here, if that is how you feel, you need to leave. Then open the door and hold it for him.

my friend says H wants to keep things status Quo so her opinion is: He moved closer to make sure I wasnt going to change things here
He likes coming and going as he pleases and to have my attention when he visits
I was thinking of telling him we are busy friday..just to change it up 180 for me and change his visitation this week

To me, this just seems more evidence for going No Contact.

why do so many of these MLCers seem to be so unsure?
they move out proclaiming this is what they want, then for the next 1-2 years they keep us on a string waiting for a possible return
so they throw a crumb anytime they sense we may seriously be done

These words are indicative of a person who thinks the crisis is about her. They keep that string in place for them, not you. They throw you crumbs not so you will be lead on, but so you will maintain Hope because they want you there. It is about what they want deep down, but they are not often aware of these deeper motivations.

and why do they want to continue a frienship with the spouse they just abandoned?
many of them have OW.. Why not talk to her?

Since in so many cases an affair begins because two people are able to share their problems when they feel they cannot share the at home, it may seem odd that an OW is not a person for confiding. Why?
Well, he has left you and since according to the problems he was confiding, you were the problem. He got rid of the problem. And yet he is still not happy. He's supposed to be happy now since he is with her. She used to sympathize, but now that she is failing to fix him, she has no patience for his moaning complaints and desolation.

do they really want to come home but still cant

Sometimes, but superficially it's not about what they want. They are often not able to determine wants. It's about avoiding and surviving within each moment. They cannot see far enough ahead to make large scope goals. They focus their desires on each instant.


Throughout this journey I have noticed that you consistently avoid the issue of No Contact, you consistently receive positive messages through meditation and you consistently are uncertain. There's an oxy moron, consistent uncertainty!

You have also maintained the belief that he's at a certain stage which is ahead of the norm--you often feel he is in Depression when cycling or skirting Depression. It takes a long tie to Fall, and during that period of avoiding Falling and the plummet--before hitting bottom, you will see Depression. But you will see a bit of everything else too--cycling.

It's time to cut the apron strings and let him go. You talked about Detaching, which is a good thing, but it is time to take it to the next level which is Letting Go.
Determine the active steps you need to take to do that.

HUGS,
RCR

[tpaschal]

RollercoasterRider,

Wow. There was a lot of good stuff in your post that I needed to hear, even if it wasn't written directly to me. I know you are busy and probably keep up with a lot of posters, but I would appreciate it if you could visit my thread.

Peace,

I've been following your sitch for a while. I think you do a great job of being patient and dignified, and yes, peaceful. I've often said that I KNOW God is giving me the peace and patience to get through this situation, because peace and patience are definitely not natural to me!

I hope this will be a peaceful week for you.

[peacetoday]

RCR
Thanks for reading my thread and responding
I will take your suggestions into deep consideration as you have been a light for me throughout this and i am grateful
peace

[Upside]

Hi peace-
As always, RCR gives us all so much to think about.

I was one of those neglectful spouses too. Sweetheart is clingy and needy. He seeks comfort from me. And when in comfort, there is no motivation to change and continue to grow.

I think this is interesting especially after our converstation the other day. It makes me wonder if our H's are too comfortable thinking we will be there whenever they choose to come home.

I don't know...thinking about this and a few other things made me lose it today. This wwould be a good topic for discussion here.

Hope you had a good weekend.

<3
Upside

[angelica]

RCR will not be able to post to you, because sadly she has been banned. The naughty girl didn't remove her email address. Imagine it gerlz. Smacked wrists all round.

Sure beats smoking behind the cycle sheds for a bad!!

A

[MissH]

Angelica lovey! Where have you been? I've missed you!

[Jeanette1120]

RCR will not be able to post to you, because sadly she has been banned. The naughty girl didn't remove her email address. Imagine it gerlz. Smacked wrists all round.
A

Wait! I did not remove mine either. They did it for me.???

[Upside]

Hi peace-
Are you feeling better? I hope you are. Anything new?

<3
Upside

[peacetoday]

HI Upside thansk for checking on me!
im feeling a bit better ..bad cold going round!



Ive given it all some thought
meditated
and spoke with a few friends
but I am going to continue to allow contact for now
I will see how it goes the next few weeks and reevaluate
strange but I sense My H needs me to be here for him right now and that is why he shys away from any permanent cuts
I am helping him maybe heal in a way
I need to do this
It may still mean our M is over I need to do it anyway for me
peace
H is coming tonight
He came Monday, but I had a small job and had to leave then I was not feeling well , so we had little interaction
Hope I am choosing right