Hang in there. She recognizes changes in you and finds them attractive. That's a good sign, if what you want is a restored marriage. It doesn't guarantee that, but you are in better shape than a lot of folks. That probably doesn't help ease your pain much, but she's showing that there is something to work with here. Only time will tell where this goes.
It sounds like your W is experiencing the pain, perhaps even a bit of denial, of parts of herself that she hasn't seen before, or perhaps fully acknowledged before. This can be a very painful process, as most of us don't want to do this work. She's not likely to quickly say to you or the MC, "You know, you are right, I am ....." or "I really was wrong to ....." Most of us don't own up to our faults quickly or easily. We prefer to blame others, or circumstances. Many people remain stuck there, so give your wife some space, try to resist your anger at her venom, and ask yourself how much you are willing to take and how long you are willing to wait to see if she changes to a healthier person, one you can have a beautiful relationship with. It sure sounds like she's pretty far from being that person right now.
Be careful about "believing is seeing." You seem determined to interpret things as proof that it's over. Maybe it is over, but maybe not. You don't seem to have final proof one way or the other right now. So, ask yourself why you are reacting that way. What fear or anxiety in yourself is being triggered? Abandonment? Something else? Was there something in your past that leads you to this conclusion?
I experienced last summer what you wrote about in your last post. I was sure it was over right then and there. I misinterpreted many things, because I had made up my mind and then went looking for evidence to prove I was right. Believing leads us to see what we want to see, and ignore or discount other possible explanations.
Wow! I'm surprised you view that as more of her trying to leave the R..I just dont read it that way at all! She sounds rather confused..she is wrestling with what she had talked herself into was a dead situation, then it leaks out of her (in a short para in the middle) that she has noticed and been surprised by the changes you have made and that this has impacted her view of things. I really wouldnt give up Purr, but keep doing what you are doing! And then she is away for 2 weeks and that might be a good thing, as it will give her time and space to think.
But anyway..SHE emailed you! SHE suggested meeting! This is important and she wanted to squeeze in seeing you before she went away. I think there is a glimmer of hope here, I really do.
Having said that...how did the walk go !!??
Ali
Me:40! H:37 Together: 12yrs IDLY & left 11/07 ADs 03/08 OW 8/08 Reconciled 05/09 now married! my thread
Re: believing is seeing. I think I'm catching on to what you mean here, that maybe I am ? too negative about the prospects? If either of you could say more on this, it would be helpful because I think this is a bit of a blind spot for me or is somewhat foggy.
I'm going to head off shortly to see her. I'll try to use my formula that helps me get grounded:
1. listen and validate her experience--doesn't mean I accept it or support it or agree with it.
2. stay somewhat neutral and avoid getting drawn into debates re: "the way something is/was".
3. avoid foot in mouth by keeping the inside voice INSIDE.
4. be calm and positive without being fake.
5. try to avoid steering things toward an ultimatum (have to watch for this as it's been lurking around inside me to do so...I think it's the anxiety of her leaving for 2 weeks and feeling like the bomb awaits upon her return).
6. PRETEND TO BE CALM, even though it feels like lots is riding on it. It's only one conversation, and like a friend told me: if it's over today or upon her return from her trip, it won't be because of one conversation or because of the trip. It will be because of her choices based on everything else along the way.
Off I go. Press PMA button now, even press FAKE PMA button now.
Wow, I am drained. We went for a walk and spent about 2 1/2 hours talking. It was tough. I did really well with listening to things that I didn't want to hear and keeping my ears engaged more than my mouth...well at least at first. There was lots of stuff about how she "wasn't ready to work on things...yet". and "I'm not ready to work on any of this...right now". I thought this was somewhat promising because it implied that maybe a change could be forthcoming, but no. When trying to explore this, it didn't really go anywhere. I asked what she would find helpful and she said she felt the MC and I were "ganging up" on her sometimes to work on the relationship (this is really quite distorted, I have to say. She acknoweldged this too, later). Then it went to stuff that she just is clear that she doesn't want to work on any of it, and why can't that just be accepted by the MC and by me.
Then it led to maybe wanting "a break" from our relationship. I said, "okay, what would that look like to you?". She kept saying she didn't know just so she could live her life and me live mine for awhile. I asked if that would involve seeing other people and she said maybe yes, because she does think about dating others. In putting it together I said, "okay, so you don't want to work on the relationship with me now, you want to see other people, including possibly being sexually with others. That sounds like you are wanting to end the relationship". She said no, maybe we wouldn't have to end the relationship. I'm like WTF--how would that work...you and I would be seeing other people, sexually involved with them, but still sort of in a relationship with each other (and no doubt, a non-sexual one). She said that sometimes people take a break and then get back together after being with others.
I was putting it out there saying "if you are really saying that you don't want to be with me and you want to end the relationship, then maybe that's what should happen. I don't understand how we can be together but not together and with other people." I reiterated that staying with me because she doesn't want to hurt me really doesn't make much sense if that's all that is holding things together.
I was so confused by what she was saying. She said she felt confused and stuck between a rock and a hard place.
We walked further and I was more withdrawn. I said that I just felt sad that this is the way it is unfolding, and that the last 4 months has been very hard to hold my heart open. I said that I need a partner, someone who wants to work on things, who wants to be with me because they want to, for the relationship to work. I told her that for 4 months I had only heard from her how she needs time, space, doesn't want to work on anything, etc, again and again, and that this was very hard to hear and confusing. I mentioned that I hadn't even heard her miss me...she was shocked and said she had of course missed me and told me so (untrue entirely). I had some tears at this point but was trying to hold it back. She then held on to my arm and pulled herself close to me as we walked (which she has never done in 4 months).
Then she said she wondered if we could try dating for 3 months or something (but it sounded totally non-committal and like just another one of these off the wall ideas). She cried and I hugged her. We held each other for nearly 10 minutes. I apologized later for saying anything to "persuade" her and that she should do what she needs to do for her, not to be with me "because she feels bad".
Then she seemed quite upbeat all of a sudden and later we walked back to the car with her again holding my arm. We agreed that it still was very unclear what was next, but she said "let's think about it". She acknolwedged that that's what she's been doing but she said that there was some new stuff discussed today to consider. I wished her well on her trip tomorrow and she asked me to email the next MC appointment so she didn't lose it.
I came home and had a good talk with a friend. I was so confused because of the range and contradictions all over the place in what was discussed. I did not feel that the idea of "trying" for 3 months was at all serious, and felt like it was in reaction to me being upset. I realize that upon her return from her trip in a couple of weeks, if there remains this sense of no interest, I may need to bring it to a close myself. This is very difficult, but I really feel like she doesn't want to lose me, but definitely doesn't want to work on things. I think I won't be willing to sustain that.
For now, I have had (another) huge cry. Nothing further will likely happen on this until she's back, so there's a couple of weeks of breathing room for us both. I can't believe that I may have to be the one to pull the plug on this. It's the last thing I want to do, but how much more can I hear this "I don't want to work on it, nothing will change, I love you but, I want to be with others, I'm confused, etc"
Purr... I dont know where to begin, really I dont!! Theres no way she was saying all that stuff just because she doesnt want to hurt you...this is about her and her feelings (confused). My god man, you want to pull the plug and shes throwing you life lines left right and centre! (they're not long enough to reach you yet, but shes throwing them out all the same). If pulling the plug is the last thing you want to do, then DONT DO IT !!!
I seriously think she is having some major transit of sorts that is making her want to break free and rebel, but she is also concious that you mean alot to her and she is confused. I dont doubt that it hurt a tremendous amount to hear her say she thinks maybe you should have a break and date others..but then she suggested getting back together at the end of that!? She didnt just say that for your benefit, no way.
I said it before...you need to be the big person here and if you truly love her...let her go. Tell her you understand she is struggling at this juncture in her life with whats gone before and the next stage of her life, shes trying to reconcile some childhood issues, some long standing issues, that its tough for her, she feels got at, pinned down, trapped... that she needs a period of time to spread her wings and find out what she really wants...and that as you love her, you give her your blessing..
The next bit is up to you, but if you can handle it and your prepared to wait, I wouldnt be surprised if by letting her go, she comes back to you eventually. You sound like a lovely man, shes 43..realistically...decent partners are thin on the ground at that age! They're either M with kids, or going through MLC themselves !! And the ones that are perpetually single still, are probably not worth bothering with ;-) She'll find out...
You said she started out by admitting shes not ready to work on things yet (she still wants her freedom)..but when you pressed her it didnt go anywhere..well, I guess thats because she hasnt worked through all her feelings yet and is afraid of making any promises or commitments to you, she still wants to be "free"
She doesnt seem very happy though does she? Life is not a bed of roses for her...she cried when you got to the car! And hugging for 10 minutes? Thats amazing, thats really intimate and shows a strong bond between you both still.
You said.. She said no, maybe we wouldn't have to end the relationship. I'm like WTF--how would that work...you and I would be seeing other people, sexually involved with them, but still sort of in a relationship with each other (and no doubt, a non-sexual one). She said that sometimes people take a break and then get back together after being with others. Ok, that must have been tough to hear never lone contemplate. I think its a bit nonsense really, shes clearly very confused but the overriding message I get from all of the above (whether she manages to see someone else or not, and cross that bridge if and when it happens)...SHE WANTS TO KEEP YOU IN HER LIFE ! Its not over for good.
And its really positive she wants you to not only make the MC appointment, but email it to her so she doesnt forget!? Remember you were saying in a previous post how it was all over, so much so you didnt imagine she'd even go to another C session ! You see, you were wrong about that...you just dont know, you cant second guess.
I think you need to work on how you interpret things. I know I did this on my thread (and others would be shouting at me..BUT THIS IS POSITIVE! Why cant you see that?) and it is harder when you're in the thick of it...but seriously, you seem to have interpreted it as pretty hopeless, but I didnt ! Why do you think you are intepreting it so negatively? Is it just that it hurts so much? Another example...you had assumed (or thought the worst) that she doesnt miss you, and when you said this, she looked shocked and said she does! I guess she hasnt been that open with you, so what else can you do but assume the worst, with so little feedback. But just bear this in mind..things arent always what they seem. Look at her actions..she ended it, then keeps you in her life, hugs you, is weepy, is committed to MC, wants to meet you before she goes away...it all builds up a picture of a confused woman running from something, but that she isnt done with you.
I think she doesnt want you back now, or to work on things, just yet, but if you DO want her back one day, then this is very much a case of time here I think. You need to give her time and space and almost give her permission by the sounds of it...sounded to me like she was almost asking for your approval. About the MC, I'm not sure about that, if she feels got at and under pressure, maybe its counter-productive at the moment? The MC is about working on the R and if she really doesnt want to yet, it cant be helping the sitch I suppose. Anyone else got any thooughts on this??
Thinking of you as always, sorry you got so upset, but remember...you are a great catch !! Shes lucky you're still hanging around giving her all these chances :-) Ali x
Me:40! H:37 Together: 12yrs IDLY & left 11/07 ADs 03/08 OW 8/08 Reconciled 05/09 now married! my thread
You ar in the same exact spot as me. No different what so ever. Onlt that you are still seeing the MC. I think the MC will do youno good what so ever until she wants to work.
This is really hard. I spent time last night thinking of pulling the plug also. I haver caught my W isn so many lies lately it is increadable and all she wants to do is argue. So hard. I am going to see my L tomorrow.
Hang tough and remember you are giving this one heck of an effort.
Well, you had quite a night. I'm so sorry to hear that it was so hard, but what a rollercoaster you are on! I can only second Ali's thoughts here. She has given you a lot of wise advice and insight. Her comments could almost fit my W perfectly as well, as far as I can tell from a distance.
I really do think what happens next is up to you. If you have had enough, pull the plug. But if you still think you want to give this a shot, you must wait. Time is your ally, provided you want to see if there is a shot here. As you wait, you will endure a lot of pain from not being with her in the way you would like, and pain from hearing her say awful things, and pain from watching her do mean things to you. If you can endure that, you might get to a point where the two of you can really work. She doesn't sound ready to walk away completely. She is confused. Try to empathize--what was in her life, perhaps going all the way back to childhood, that might make her respond this way now? Empathy is not a blank check to walk over you at all costs. You have the power to decide when you've had enough, but empathy also helps you grow and creates potential for greater closeness.
As for believing is seeing, I read that somewhere last summer, but I can't remember where and so I can't point you toward a book, study, etc. However, I take it to mean that we all have conscious beliefs, as well as unconscious thoughts, about ourselves, others, and life in general. We are more likely to be trusting, optimistic, or the opposite, depending upon our life patterns (and no doubt biological makeup too; so much of emotion seems tied to chemicals). We don't change those beliefs easily, even when we are aware of them. When we are unaware, I'd say it's almost impossible to change those beliefs. Thus, when we are presented with information, we tend to make that information conform to our "default" way of seeing the world. Even if the information doesn't look like it will fit, we will search for a way to do so. We will deny things, come up with alternative explanations that fit, etc. In sum, I think it means that people want to stay in their "comfort" zones, and thus rush to interpret events so that they fit into that zone. We do this even when dealing with hard issues. So, if I am someone who has abandonment fears, I will interpret events to confirm that I will be abandoned when in fact the person who is "triggering" those fears may have had other intentions. However, if the person doesn't tell me what is going on with him/her, or if I don't stop to ask myself "Am I being abandoned, or is there another possible explanation here that I am not aware of yet?" I will assume abandonment. I think the key thing is self-awareness. We need to try to dig into ourselves to see why we view something the way we do (why did that make me happy? sad? fearful?), and then not rush to judgment. There are many possible explanations for things. Our initial beliefs may prove correct. Maybe your marriage is over. But initial fears may also prove wrong. Maybe your marriage will be saved.
The more I think about things, the more I'm drawn toward seeing life as hard, if not impossible, to predict. We try to predict because we want control (even if the prediction is a negative one, convincing ourselves that something bad is going to happen can be a coping mechanism by giving us a sense of "control"). Growth comes when we give up control. The currents of life will take us places where we never thought we'd go; some of those destinations will be unpleasant, but others will be unexpected delights. Pain comes from frantically resisting the flow, from trying to fight against the current. We can't control our spouses, and so we must give up trying to do so.
