I think we are getting on the same page, and I’m REALLY REALLY glad to see it.
I don't think we're quite on the same page but let's continue to chat -LOL
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Thank you. You are the main reason I decided to post again, after I had decided it was consuming way too much of my time to post here. I kept watching you go down your path over the past few months, saw where you were going, what you were feeling and I though I saw why you were still being hurt. Everyone else was being a good friend to you. They all have you in their best interests, but I think the feel good support was actually digging you deeper into your hole.
Really I think the way to look at it is that I've been filling in one hole by extracting dirt from another. It's unlikely that my overall functioning would actually immediately improve after a life crisis like divorce (whether or not it was a long-term positive crisis). It's clear to me that my bunny has gotten stronger at the expense of a weaker lioness but I think it has been a growth experience overall because it's like I feel as although I don't have any more function than previously, I have more choice in how to "spend" my function. The best I can express it is to say that in spite of the occasional crying jag or fall into a bowl of rice pudding I am actually much happier than when I was married. I'm still a bit lost but I'm not trapped anymore. If I won the Lotto tomorrow and could only keep the money if I agreed to return to being married to my 2bx, I'd give up the cash immediately.
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If you remember, Nop used to focus on guilt as a major driver of self-destructive actions by “the infidel.” More and more I see guilt pushing women to take action (either good or bad) than I see this in men. But that is part of what makes a woman a woman, isn’t it? It makes up part of the mix that helps to create different flavors of empathy. Its just that too much can be bad (like anything else in a relationship).
Well, there are two ways to look at the way my "guilt" affects my sexuality. My father was a classic "nice guy". He didn't have any sons so as his first born daughter he trained me to be a bit of a "nice tomboy". So, like all the HD nice guys on this BB, I was taught that it's alright to be sexual but only if you take care of obligations A,B,C and expectations X,Y,Z first. Sex is like a cookie you get for good behavior. The not-so-nice men that I date were taught something more like sex is meat and you aren't a vegetarian so you better get you some. As GP said "I'm a grown man so I will have sex.". So most if the folk on this BB would advise me that if guilt about "not getting my homework" done is interfering with my ability to be freely sexual then I should concentrate on getting my homework done. I am poised on a tightwire where I halfway agree with this POV because I am my father's daughter but I halfway want to say "F*ck that. I know what sex is and 'getting my homework done' isn't the price I have to pay to get it." The fact is that there is no way in h*ll that the type of tokens I earn for "doing my homework" will ever buy me sex if I don't mix in some coins of a very different denomination. What "doing my homework" earns me is the respect of "nice" people. Obviously, that is something I value or I wouldn't hang out here in Amish land. However, it is also true that Hilary Clinton did her homework but you don't see her navel stapled in the center of Maxim.
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Yes, I can see that, and could that punishment be rejection? Now, if you were doing all those things to subconsciously gain approval from your parents (via the surrogate fathers who were your boyfriends), then maybe you can see why you were headed for trouble. Your recent real-world experience seems to bear that out, doesn’t it?
BUT, if you are having sex because that is central to your values and morality, then I can’t see how someone calling you a “freak” would bother you at all. IMO, you might see such a person not as someone looking down on you, but rather someone who is just not sufficiently enlightened or developed to understand you higher meaning of sex. You might feel sad for that person’s lack of understanding or appreciation of sex, but I would hope you would not see it as having anything to do with you being deficient or a moron. Does this make sense?
One thing I should make clear is that although I do consider my mother's bi-polar-rage behavior during my adolescence to have been emotionally abusive it was not the case that I cowered in the face of it. Pretty much I always fought back with my clever monkey. For instance, I would say the peak of our battles might have been a moment when she was getting on my case about something a la "cow and free milk" and I responded by saying "At least I won't be a whore for marriage like you." The reason I said this was she was a shop-a-holic and basically operated on the premise that that my father owed her endless financial support simply because she was a woman (this wasn't exactly straight-forward because she was more HD though more prissy than my father My parents fought about money a lot more than sex). Probably the reason I feel empathy for a man who will fall for a pretty face is that my father told me that the reason he married my mother is that she looked just like Elizabeth Taylor in her youth and he fell in love with Elizabeth Taylor when he saw "National Velvet" as a boy.
Okay, back to point. Why did it bother me to be called a "freak"? That is a good question especially since FSG really didn't mean it as an insult but I took it as one. Actually, in an earlier phone convo, FSG once suggested that I might "have a little freak in me" and then as though talking to himself said "No. I couldn't be that lucky." So, in some alternative universe where I was somebody who felt like she deserved to be freely sexual, I might have heard his statement as an affirmation that he was indeed lucky because I really am a freak.
Let's review the three main reasons why I can't or don't deserve be freely sexual.
1) I am fat and/or unattractive.
2) The fact that I am HD or a freak makes me sexually unattractive for some kind of reverse psychology reason. If a man senses that I actually want to be f*cked he will lose the desire to f*ck me. Thus, I carry an aura of anti-attraction.
3) I am broke and my affairs are in a bit of a mess. Any kind of "mess" in combination with sexuality makes me a bit of a slut almost by definition.
Here's how I'm doing on solving these problems.
1) Lots of progress made. Dumped H who came from family of anorexic and/or little bird-like women and therefore was not strongly attracted to me ever. No problem whatsoever getting dates with men who like tall curvy women. For some reason, when we were out in public, GP would always point out all the guys who were attracted to me and laugh about it so that was helpful.
2) There is some truth to this but it is limited. It's just like there is an awkward moment in the sexual dance where I either have to jump in the air with confident expectation of being caught or step back gracefully and allow the guy space to take the lead. Not a big deal if one is self-aware, observant and empathetic.
3) Where I am currently stuck. Do I clean up the mess first like a good girl or self-affirm/validate my sexuality regardless of mess? Is there ever an end to messes in life?
The other thing I am upset about is that it has become apparent to me that my insecurities have caused me to behave in ways that the men I've dated have probably read as rejection. I'm such a nutcase that I thought men were propositioning me just to be nice and I was actually thinking that a man who is practically a robber baron might sexually reject me because I currently have a bad credit rating. Well, I hope you guys are fond of me 'cause clearly I need many more years of therapy and I can't afford the real thing (sigh).
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
But wait... she did grow up with it. Just not with her mom. Her dad showed all the cuddliness she could want, right? So why would she be driven to choose a man that's like her mom?
That's right. Both my father and my maternal grandmother were present and cuddly in my life. I often had the thought that my 2bx could have been my brother. That is because he was cold like my mother and ineffective like my father. What I want is a guy who is warm like my father and bold like my mother. It's kind of interesting that GP actually reminded me of my grandmother because he treated me like a pet but was also street-smart and tough like her. FSG seems much more like a peer. For instance, GP always insisted on opening doors for me. FSG was opening doors for me but then didn't so I just stood by his car waiting and he was all like "Remember I told you I was just opening doors to get you." and I was like "Taking me for granted already, huh. That's not going to fly." So then we were both totally cracking up but he opened the door anyways.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Something just occurred to me. Perhaps guys don't pick people like their mothers; instead the wife starts acting like his mother because she gets more of a reaction when she uses the same signals his mother does, and over time she tends to do more of what works. I could see how that would work on women as well.
But if the guy didn't get the same familiar reactions from the girl from the get-go, the two would have never made it past the first date. I don't think people can change so easily to start pushing different buttons. I think they tend to push the same buttons, only in different ways, but he fact that they "have" to push a particular button means they will tend toward a certain type of woman, just like dear old mom. Remember, even mom was a nice, loving person at one stage in her life.
The other thing I am upset about is that it has become apparent to me that my insecurities have caused me to behave in ways that the men I've dated have probably read as rejection. I'm such a nutcase that I thought men were propositioning me just to be nice and I was actually thinking that a man who is practically a robber baron might sexually reject me because I currently have a bad credit rating. Well, I hope you guys are fond of me 'cause clearly I need many more years of therapy and I can't afford the real thing (sigh).
Hmmm. It is interesting to me to see you outline where your insecurities lie... not so much different from my own... yet when I chose to 'self-soothe' I did it with alcohol. You seem to be doing it with men.
The varying responses you get from these men can send you into a tailspin... the varying responses I was getting from people who were picking up on how much I was drinking sent me into tailspins... because I, as an otherwise intelligent woman, felt a great deal of shame in the fact that I was having a hard time holding it together, and using drink to self-sooth. Then I would completely abstain. Go the other way... but in any event... I was operating in extremes. I can STILL do this.
Some people have lots of sex. Other people spend way too much money. Some people get excessively depressed... but in any event, no matter what your 'poison,' it seems to be a binge/purge type of behavior... LFL referred to it as manic... I refer to it as bouncing...
And I think, no matter what your FOO... this tends to be a... uh... typical reaction to major upheaval in someone's life. Long way of saying... honey... you are STRESSED. Stress is nothing to screw around with... especially high levels of stress, experienced over long periods (you qualify).
I'm not so sure you need excessive therapy as you do a rigid and sure fire plan to get yourself into some realm of normalcy. I personally think you'd benefit tremendously by reading that book on the 7 stages of grieving (you know... on death and dying...).
You have experienced a death-like experience, Mo. Nothing short of it. You WILL go through each stage... it helps if you know what you face, so you can figure out what to do, or who to contact when you feel yourself getting stuck.
But no matter how nutty you feel, or how 'insane or erratic' you think your posts might be coming across... keep posting. You can go back and see yourself, your behaviors, your patterns... for YOURSELF... people, knowing you... can bring attention to certain behaviors... people here... care about you... and if you can't help yourself... are willing to help. You just have to be honest enough... brave(?) enough... to kinda... crash in public. You kinda let everyone know what's going on in a time when you don't necessarily trust yourself all that much. A safeguard against yourself, if you will.
It can be really embarrassing... but... it somehow keeps you in the game.
No. Sex is not like alcohol or cookies. Sex is something essential to my well-being. I am currently having sex with a man who professes to "really like me" and I am quite fond of him too, even if or maybe because he is a robber baron type. It's great that I want to have sex with him and vice versa and it's normal if I might feel a little hurt if I was rejected. Case closed.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Mojo, I think you should (and all of us should) look at sex as one of the basic necessities of life like eating or sleeping. It's interesting how the psychology of dieting is similar to the attitude you expressed about sex, namely, if I get my homework done, then I get to have sex. Or I can't have regular great sex until my finances are straightened out. It's similar to "if I have half an unsalted soda cracker and a cup of weak herb tea for lunch, I have EARNED the right to a chicken breast and 1/4 cup of broccoli for dinner." When you (or anyone her) were dieting, didn't you often have the thought, "I cheated on my diet at lunch, so I don't DESERVE this meal, treat, ice cream, etc." It wasn't a matter of nourishment or needing food to survive, it was a system of reward and punishment and a constant test of character.
So if you decide that sex is a necessity like food and that you don't have to skip it until you have six months' pay in your savings account (does ANYONE have that?), or all your boxes unpacked, or lose that last 5-10-20 lbs... what if it is just something it's okay to HAVE, whenever you want as long as the opportunity is there (whether in marriage or out of it).
This addresses the non-sexual partner who has to have everything just right in order to have sex, AS WELL AS the nice guy who has to have his wife's To Do list completed before he can approach her.
Let's just fcuk whenever we darned well feel like it! Whoopeee!
