Engagement

[Burgbud]

SM, I think you're in good shape. You've been entirely honest with her. You can't possibly know if she believes you this time. You've told her...that's all you can do. Who knows what it takes in a particular sitch? Maybe you'll have to actually file before she takes you seriously. Maybe you'll have to move out. Maybe you'll have to get a divorce. Maybe she simply doesn't have it in her to change. I think this board often makes everybody nuts by trying to figure out *the other person*. All you have available to know is yourself. Be radically honest. Be direct. Respect her as Other and respect your own individuality and let the chips fall. Near as I can tell, that's what you've done.

Sniffing around to figure out what she thinks of you or your sitch at any given time is not going to be effective. You've told her. She's replied. Her next step will either happen or it won't. Your next step after that will either happen or it won't. Actions will tell the tale.

[SolidMechanic]

But this is the question I have been asking. Does she know that the counselor appointment is THE step you are looking for versus the sex issues?

Please stop and read carefully. If my wife does not call a counselor, I will not divorce her. It is not a deal breaker. If she does call a counselor, it does not save our marriage. And I have made it clear that I am no longer willing to tolerate not having a sex life with her, so she knows that getting counseling is just a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

In your last two posts, you keep implying that I have invested the entire weight of our marriage on her calling a marriage counselor. This is not true, and I am sorry if I conveyed that in my posts.

What I am looking for is for my wife to take some initiative in solving our marital problems. She has never done that. Setting up an appointment with a counselor is just one way she can do that. Last week she gave me a foot massage. That was great, not just because it felt good, but because it was her idea. It was a tangible recognition on her part that she is capable of, and interested in meeting my needs, or in working to save the marriage. I can think of all sorts of things she could do. If she asked me for ideas, I would eagerly discuss them with her. In the past, she would say, "Well what can I do?" I would suggest things and she would shoot everything down. After a while I came to realize that her question was rhetorical. She wasn't really asking for helpful suggestions. She was implying that there really was nothing she could do.

Her attitude this time around is different. And my approach is different too. Like I said, I'm brimming with ideas if we can get together in a spirit of mutual problem solving. Or, if she is afraid to come to me, we can use a counselor as a resource. I am just beginning to see signs of her willingness to work on things, for the first time in our marriage. But I am not going to push her. I am not her boss. I am her partner. If she won't own her half of the marriage, it will go out of business.

Just out of curiosity, how relieved would you be if she just simply ignores the counseling and your requests so you can just go through with the divorce feeling like you gave her a chance and she didn't take advantage of the chance?

I would not be relieved at all. How could I be relieved at the prospect of divorcing and dividing my family? Do you think that is easy for me? I don't want that, but I am ready to make that choice if I have to. Relief is not part of the equation.

What does it mean when someone says they want to do something, but then they don't actually do it?
I completely understand those that say it is a clear sign that someone doesn't want to do it. Especially if the person is the type that seems to have a problem with ever saying no.

The passive aggressive angle. That comes into play sometimes, but maybe not in this case. I have plenty of my own aversions. I know what it is like to find my subconscious overruling my conscious intent so that I end up doing something I shouldn't do or avoiding doing something that I know I should.

However I happen to be a woman that may say I want to do something, really do want to do it (if I don't want to do something, I have no trouble saying no) but don't immediately do it IF I'm feeling overwhelmed, tired, afraid, unsure, etc. By no means is this an excuse. It simply is what it is with me. (Feel sorry for Raven!!)

I appreciate that.

SM

[SolidMechanic]

And let me say I applauded your thoughts on "unsolicited rescuing as paternalism".

Thanks. I wish I understood this a long time ago. I have been inclined to jump in and fix things right away. I have had to develop some extra patience to watch others struggle to figure out how to do things. When you rescue, you short circuit other people's growth processes. You also send them the message that you don't think their capable of learning how to do things themselves. You end up hurting more than helping. I mostly learned this from dealing with my kids.

Rescuing my kids is a pretty understandable, if a little misguided, impulse. Doing it with my wife is downright insidious. That's why I labeled it paternalistic. I'm not her daddy.

SM

[SolidMechanic]

What LFL said. How does your W know that this issue is any more important to you now than it was 8-5-3 years ago? How does it look different to her.

This is the first time I seriously talked about divorce with her. I basically layed out what I thought a post divorce life would look like for all of us.

What does it mean when someone says they want to do something, but then they don't actually do it?
It means they don't want to.

So you believe all action is governed by conscious intent?

[SolidMechanic]

Thanks, Burg. I am trying to focus on behavior, in the short time. More on mine than on hers, actually. I know I need to lead. If I persist in a loving, compassionate way, and she actually follows my lead, we might have something to work on. If she can't follow my lead, I need to be ready to move on.

SM

[fearless]

What I am looking for is for my wife to take some initiative in solving our marital problems.

To be clear, I think this intent is great and have thought that throughout this thread. My questions are and have been - does your wife understand this? Does she understand that your expectation is to see progress from her? Have you told her that the foot rub meant a lot to you and that is the type of progress you want to see?

Do you think that is easy for me?

No I don't but I also see it's not easy for you struggling with the marriage you have either. Some of your wording comes across at times as setting your wife up to fail. You might not be and I certainly do NOT think you are doing it on purpose if you are.

Maybe I have not been clear before. I firmly believe that trying to guess what your wife is thinking or what she means is NOT your responsibility. I believe that you should expect your wife to be a loving partner to you. I also believe that communicating with her clearly and honestly, without any hidden meanings or agendas and without covert contracts is the best way to go. If you feel confident that is what you have done, that is great.

Good Luck and whatever happens I hope you have peace with yourself. I think you deserve that too.

[sat567]

Does she understand that your expectation is to see progress from her?

I think he's been pretty clear that, although he may have preferences, he doesn't have "expectations."

Have you told her that the foot rub meant a lot to you and that is the type of progress you want to see?

I don't know about SM or his wife, but if I told MsHdog something like this, she would say something that would either ruin the memory of what had been a good experience (e.g., "Glad it was good for you. Don't expect it every time you whine about your 'needs.'") or she would berate me for mentioning something that did not need to be mentioned, thus making it that much more unlikely to occur in the future.

SM- How would your W react to a statement by you about how the foot rub was the kind of thing you see as "progress"?

Hairdog

[fearless]

HD -I think he's been pretty clear that, although he may have preferences, he doesn't have "expectations."

I haven't seen that clearly and that's why I have been asking the questions I have. The statements SM has written, that I list below, seem to me to be expectations of what he expects her to be able to do if she really does want to save the marriage. They also seem to be judgments of her and her actions too.

SM - Calling a counselor is not that big, in my mind.

I don't think it is asking too much to actually look to her to take that step herself.

Which is easier, having sex after not having any in 10 years, or making a phone call?

Although it's progress, it's still not the actions of someone who wants to save her marriage.

Especially this last statement. Why judge her actions as whether they are or are not the actions of someone who wants to save her marriage? Why not say "Although it's progress, it's not enough for me"?


HD -I don't know about SM or his wife, but if I told MsHdog something like this, she would say something that would either ruin the memory of what had been a good experience

Understood. But in this case SM HAS already told his wife that a divorce will be an option if things don't change. He's told us clearly (I'm just not sure about her) that what he needs to see from her is definite initiative from her toward improving their marriage. He stated in many ways that "one little phone call" seemed a pretty easy way to start and that did seem to be an expectation. I questioned whether she might think she has made progress toward his requests with her foot massage, acceptance of his arousal, and apology for her testiness with him. All I meant was that IF he hadn't specifically told her his expectation of what she needed to show him to prevent him from leaving the marriage, that might be confusing for her.

OTOH, I am not saying that any of it is necessary. He could look her in the face tonight and simply tell her it's too late and move on IF that's what he wants to do... Then he would need to own that decision without anger, not blame her, and move on with confidence and PEACE into the rest of his life knowing that he did the best he could and believe that she did the best she could.

I admit I am a strong proponent of marriage. Even so, for me, if a divorce is the only way a person sees out (especially without abuse, infidelity or addiction), then I would encourage the person to be able to leave the marriage without anger, blame, etc. I've seen too many people be the ones who HAD to leave their marriage and then turn around and be the ones who harass and nitpick their exes even after the divorce. So your spouse was so bad you had to leave in order to be happy and NOW you're still not happy so it's still all your ex-spouses fault??? It's especially painful for the spouse who was left. They didn't want the marriage to end and had their lives devastated and yet their ex-spouse seems unable to quit reminding them that it was THEIR fault that the spouse had to leave. To me, that does not seem like the actions of a person who is at peace with their decision to leave.

Again my point is that if and when a person gets to the point that they feel they MUST leave their marriage, I think it's a good thing for the person to OWN the decision for themselves rather than to use phrases like "If they had just done x,y,z like I asked" or "they forced/made me leave the marriage", etc.

Hdog, that's why I liked your letter to your wife so much. I think it's very sad that your marriage has come to this and that your wife seems so oblivious to what's going on but still you've come to a place of acceptance and I think that's a great thing for YOU.

[SolidMechanic]

What I am looking for is for my wife to take some initiative in solving our marital problems.

To be clear, I think this intent is great and have thought that throughout this thread. My questions are and have been - does your wife understand this?

This is a good question. I have not spelled out any kind of expectation at this point as to how much initiative I think she needs to take. It's kind of a vague marital boundary issue that we need to negotiate somehow. I'm hoping that this is something that a marriage counselor can help us negotiate. I would not call it an expectation on my part. Considering that in the past my wife showed no initiative and substantial resistance, I am encouraged by our current state, in which my wife is showing small initiative and improved receptiveness.

Some of your wording comes across at times as setting your wife up to fail.

I'm not all hung up on success or failure of individual tasks. There are things that we both need to do that are quite difficult emotionally. I expect failure, from time to time, on both our parts. What I have been doing, and what I hope she can do, is to acknowledge failure and commit to trying again anyway. Considering she apologized for snapping at me about the marriage counselor is part of what I'm looking for. If she still has a hard time with it, we will need to have an open, non-judgmental discussion about how to get to the point where she can do it or whether I need to take it over.

I also believe that communicating with her clearly and honestly, without any hidden meanings or agendas and without covert contracts is the best way to go. If you feel confident that is what you have done, that is great.

I reiterate: she suggested marriage counseling. I put together a list of candidates. She picked a first choice, and I accepted it. I asked her to make the first contact. She agreed. There is no hidden agenda.

SM

[SolidMechanic]

SM- How would your W react to a statement by you about how the foot rub was the kind of thing you see as "progress"?

Hairdog

I don't know. I would have to phrase it something like this:

"BTW, I really enjoyed that foot rub last night. Not just the foot rub, but that it was your idea and I didn't have to tell you to do it."

If I leave it unqualified, and if I don't add any requests like "That was great, but maybe now you can...", then she will respond positively. It also might give her an opening to discuss with me what she is going through during this process.

I agree with Fearless that I need to reinforce, in some way, when she exhibits the kind of behavior I like. I have been stingy on praise, and I think it is something that would make her feel loved (a la 5LL). I want to avoid a lot of heavy relationship talk though. I'm thinking of the kind of talk where I tell her how I feel and what I need and she gets defensive. When I tell her what I want, it's going to be little chunks at a time that are concrete and achievable. When I lay on her everything that I want it seems overwhelming, even to me.

SM