Another new topic! already? Here we go

[LoginName]

Parking here now.

Cat, you need to start a new one too. Where are you?

[cat03]

lol, we got locked out LN, we write too much!
I think I will start my new topic on Friday after MC, though I was hesitant about staying on this section of the DB boards, since I'll be separated and all, maybe I should move, but I'm not sure since all of you have followed my saga since 06, you all have been my lifeline.

[LoginName]

might as well stay here. Make it easier for me to find you.

[LoginName]

Cat, until you get your own feel free to post as much as you like here.

[LoginName]

Ok, even though my sitch is still going well - all the big crisis seem to be over - I'll post some of my concerns and issues anyway. Maybe I'll get some great insight, maybe writing it out will help, maybe I'll be an example to others and let them know that these kind of problems happen.

I want my W to be excited to be with me. I'm excited to be with her. I want to flirt, compliment, dream: not only talk about chores, duties, kids.

She was romantic for about a month, I think. When the light bulb turned on for her and she realized whe did want to be married to me and did want to live with me, she was very attentive, affectionate, and maybe a bit needy. I enjoyed it. Now she is business like, seemingly put off by my attempts at romance, flirtation and fun.

What's wrong with being silly and flirtatious? If she feels a little "smothered" by that, is it my problem or hers? Some, maybe many, women would enjoy and appreciate it. Am I doing it wrong?

Here is the IM conversation this morning that is fueling my angst. She asked How are things in YourLand this morning? I responded with Good and how are things in Wifeland (or as we mortals call it, the eastern paradise)? She said that was over the top. Obviously it is. Isn't it also slightly clever, funny, and flirtatious? She said such comments make her feel smothered.

This points back to problems that lead to this mess. Am I doing something wrong here, and if so, what is it? Do I stop being silly, complimentary, etc.? Years ago, I complimented my W a lot. I pride myself on only giving compliments that I believe and am sincere about. I stopped giving compliments over the years, because she didn't seem to like them and didn't respond to them. In our reconciliation, she said I don't compliment her anymore, so I've started again. She's already complaining that I do it too much and it makes her wonder what my motives are.

Is it hard for the WAS to trust anything the LBSer does as well as the other way around? When will she let me off the hook and trust that I'm not acting the way I am (GAL, changes, compliments) just to get her back - Heck, I'm not even sure I really want her back half the time.

Do women (to generalize) see these kind of comments differently than men?

Maybe, thinking this through... women feel uncomfortable on a pedestal, even if it's done jokingly. Maybe it's a love language thing. I'd like some compliments thrown my way occasionally. I'd like her to comment on how thin I've become, and how good I look, if she believes it (divorce diet, lost over 20 lbs, gained back a few recently, so I don't look too thin anymore ;-) ). Maybe it's insecurity. Maybe she can't believe I really do find her attractive and desirable. She's gained a lot of weight and is very self conscious about it.

This seems so small compared to A, OM, separation, etc, but this is the kind of small thing that over a number of years leads to As, OP, etc.

Am I capable of making short posts? Doesn't seem so. Well, there it is. Thanks.

[LoginName]

Has MC been good, bad, ineffective, a life saver? What have you liked, disliked? Have you tried different Cs and seen different styles? What about DB coaches? Good experiences, Bad?

For me, the DB coach really helped me at the start. I'd already read the book, and already agreed with the basic ideas of not begging, pleading etc, but he helped me stick with it and see it better.

When my W came back, and we went to MC, I found it helpful, but feel she and I did most of the work ourselves (maybe that's the way it should be)

Here's what I think our MC did well (for my sitch, might not be right for yours).
1. did NOT say he was going to help us save our M. If my W would have heard that, she would have run. She didn't want to be talked into or manipulated into staying in the M.
2. backed off when my W got defensive, didn't push her to open up more or do anything she wasn't comfortable with.
3. told me to be quiet and listen.
These were good things because of the issues that brought my W and I to the point we were at. The issues were largly my W's, base on her childhood. Not that I didn't and don't have work to do on me, but the MC saw that my W had to process some big issues first.

I think more MCs should back off and not push M at all costs. I think it's part of giving the WAS space. If they feel trapped or pushed, the fight back or run or both. IMHO.

What do y'all think?

[LoginName]

I need to get wrapped up in work, so I don't think so much.

I posted a few minues ago about something small. Then, I called my W and told her, partly, how I felt. At this point in our sitch, I think it's better to open up and talk about most things (not everything). It's the small things that build up.

My W is an introvert, she is often described as cold, aloof and standoffish. (I'm an introvert too, but seldom described like that). She doesn't need or want much human contact in any form. My main love language is physical, followed by words of affirmation. I didn't get a lot of either from her, IMO.

I'm not really complaining (much). My point is that there are many different people out there. If I would have ended up with a more outwardly affectionate person, life may have gone much differently (different problems anyway). Same for my W. I do think we are a good match for each other though.

But since she is the one that wants to be left alone most of the time (the one who say's no to interaction and contact) she is the one who decides how the relationship will be. The person who can veto something is the one with the power. Sex definately comes under this category.

I tried to turn this power structure around at one point in our M, and I became the one to say no. Almost like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I withdrew. I don't want to do that again.

ah, writing that I see that this train of thought has a large control issue to it. Although I don't believe that's it entirely. If I were with someone more compatable in this area, the issue wouldn't come up.

I feel she is in control. I don't like that. I feel I have needs that weren't, and maybe won't be, met (love language stuff, interactions, relating). I feel angry, resentful (a real killer) and trapped. I think I'm better off alone, and I've enjoyed the separation.

But, I know I want to be with her and make this R work. The trick becomes, as I see it, how do I not feel resentful, meet my needs in healthy ways, and be happy. I think remebering I like to be alone is good. If she is in her own world and doesn't want to come out to play with me, I can 1) find others to play with (remembering my wedding vows)2) remember I like being alone and entertain myself 3) tell her what I want and negotiate it (she could say "i don't feel like being with you now, but how about tomorrow afternoon we sit down together for coffee and a talk?)

since I'm lucky enough to have C on my insurance for a low co-pay of $20, I think I'll see the C again and discuss some of these topics. Having a C available is just one of the many ways I'm lucky. I wish I could share my luck with y'all.

Another thought, about sex. Asking for sex is a killer. It's awful. It should never be done. But if I act in an atractive way, if she feels safe and attractive herself, then she will come to me. When she decided in OCT to be with me, she was extremely affectionate (it almost scared me, for various reasons). Maybe I was doing something right back then. Maybe GALing, detaching, and being selfish in a way - thinking about myself and what I wanted - was attractive. Maybe I need to get back to that feeling and act that way again. It's another one of those d@amn contridictions, If I don't want her, she'll come to me. If I persue her, she'll run.

I guess the DB lessons always aply.

I'll go back and read the book, maybe look at some 180s.

Do these issues seem familiar to anyone else?

[cat03]

She's gained a lot of weight and is very self conscious about it.
=================================
I think, I think I found the answer. She prob thinks you don't really mean it and are just humoring her. I for one would LOVE all that stuff you are saying. Before my H left I was a bit overweight & didn't dress up, but my H made me feel during ML that I was hot stuff and I believed it--thus never saw anything wrong with my body.
While on the DB diet I lost weight, have grown my hair long (it turns out it is curly!) and i look 10x better than ever but my self image is still weak, why? because my H didn't complement me much since he came back.

So I'm thinking that since she has a bad image of herself she is not ready yet to believe you find her desirable, that she might feel you are mocking her even.
Perhaps start small, compliment her on a new dress she is wearing, how the color does this and that for her,etc. Not being with you for so long perhaps makes it too much for her at this point.

about C

.. I found it helpful, but feel she and I did most of the work ourselves (maybe that's the way it should be)

I also felt that way, but i think you are right, even the MC told my H that C was good and all, but that it was a small % of our piecing, that we got 1hr w/him, that it was up to him the rest of time to make things work

I still think my MC is not pushy enough, but I think this MC does agree more w/my H's demeanor (that's why we changed, the other MC, my fav, saw through him and told him like it was and H didn't like him anymore).

The old MC did tell me to calm down and showed me I can be abrasive, not so this guy, I'm the one who actually realizes on my own I need to turn the notch down a bit when I get emotional. So I guess it is a mix bag.

[cat03]

hijack
LN, I know this is not a huge deal, almost like crying about spilled milk, but as my H and I were talking, he lamented how "she was almost gone until she showed up that summer". It is killing me, thinking that we were doing well and perhaps w/time we'd get better. It is true though, that he agreed that all the while he was back he didnt' feel right all the time, true that didn't really have intimacy, a good connection, that I was still the one who wanted to ML instead of him, that he coasted along the M.
No, things were not really ok. He should've been able to say no to her, all the blame doesnt' fall on her, he should've had the spine to tell her "im trying to piece my M together" but, because as far as she knew he was D he felt he had to go along and lie to cover up his earlier lie. Even up to know he finds it impossible to tell the truth.
Grrrr! sorry, this thought is gnawing on my brain since he's said it. End of statement :P

[appleroad]

My W is an introvert, she is often described as cold, aloof and standoffish. (I'm an introvert too, but seldom described like that).

-- that's good that you're both introverts. It would likely be impossible otherwise!


Same for my W. I do think we are a good match for each other though.

-- very good!

The person who can veto something is the one with the power. Sex definately comes under this category.

-- The important thing in my mind, LIN, is that you seem to have abandoned your own power. Think about this for a nanosecond: you wife wants the relationship, for whatever reason. Therein lies your power.


But, I know I want to be with her and make this R work. The trick becomes, as I see it, how do I not feel resentful, meet my needs in healthy ways, and be happy.

-- the trick is, IMHO (and I believe I have a right to an opinion on these matters, read my thread) is to have the courage to give up the relationship if it fails to meet your basic needs. The trick is to negotiate your needs, without fear of how W will react to the negotiation. The trick is to recognize your own power in the relationship -- this is difficult when there has been an OP and a Sep related to OP. But I think this is what is called for. And never lose sight of the fact that 'negotiation' is not 'demands'. Negotiation is a delicate art. It takes time and perseverance and the firm belief that what you are negotiating for is legitimate and fair, and also it takes a firm belief in your own value/wants/needs.

3) tell her what I want and negotiate it

-- go for #3. And don't be wimpy about it. What you wrote below is wimpy.

(she could say "i don't feel like being with you now, but how about tomorrow afternoon we sit down together for coffee and a talk?)

-- if you are presently separated (this not clear to me, are you?) then you have a truly great venue for negotiating a Reconciliation Agreement. My mantra: "Don't let them come home without it"

since I'm lucky enough to have C on my insurance for a low co-pay of $20, I think I'll see the C again and discuss some of these topics. Having a C available is just one of the many ways I'm lucky. I wish I could share my luck with y'all.

-- has C been helpful in the past? If not, why go there? You have a good mind and are educated to the issue. You can probably do this OK on your own.


I guess the DB lessons always aply.

I'll go back and read the book, maybe look at some 180s.

-- The best thing that Michele suggested, to my way of thinking, is that if something is not working do not do more of the same. Do something different.

Do these issues seem familiar to anyone else?

-- I have faced all of these issues.