Your input helps a lot. I've tried to get my wife to open up to me about what's going on in her mind, but what I usually get is "I don't know" or a complete refusal to even answer my questions. I understand from reading your posts and those of other LD spouses that she probably really doesn't know the answers to some of the things I've asked her - but I feel like in some cases she does know, or at the very least could help me to understand how various things that I do affect her. So short of her actually opening up to me, I believe that former LD spouses like you or MPT or jen381, who have walked in my wife's shoes, are most capable of helping me to see the situation from her side.
Yesterday I printed out your "I am your wife" post and asked her to read it. When she saw it laying on the counter I heard her "huff". But she did read it (eventually) and when I asked her this morning if she could identify she said yes. It seems to me that if I were in her shoes and wanted my desire to come back again, reading your post would give me some hope. But I don't really know if she wants her desire to come back again - you probably know that better than I do. I asked her 3 months ago to read SSM and she said she would, but never touched it. I asked her again a couple of days ago and she said she would, but I don't know if she will this time either. Can you give me any tips as to how I can get her to read it? I've tried the "let's work on this problem together" approach, but she still feels like I'm attacking her and she hates me for it. Any advice you can give me concerning ways to make progress will be greatly appreciated. My previous posts provide a pretty detailed description of my situation, although there's a lot to wade through (or though which to wade if you prefer). Reminds me of my favorite Winston Churchill quote concerning ending a sentence in a preposition: "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put". Couldn't resist throwing that in.
I would be careful with leaving R type articles around and suggesting books for her to read. That is pressure with a big P. It also tells her that you are not respecting what she is going through emotionally and you are trying to fix her feelings. That is a death knell my friend. You heard the huff, and the book has not been read. That tells you NOT TO GO THAT ROUTE. In all probability she says to herself "sure, now he leaves articles and books around, he's just trying to get me back, where was all this before?.." I don't think thats the response you're looking for Sooner...
Respecting her space and not trying to persuade her to change her mind will go a heck of alot further than any book will. Show her you respect what she feels and leave her be, its on her timeframe. Read the book, apply the principles yourself, but don't even remotely hint that she should do the same.
Thanks for your advice - it makes perfect sense and I'll try to follow it in the future. Considering that I've already screwed up and bugged my wife to read the book, please give me your opinion of what I should do now. I could either say nothing and leave it at that, or I could approach my wife nicely and apologize saying that it was wrong of me to pressure her about reading the book, that I won't be upset if she would prefer not to read it, and that I won't mention it again - or something similar. Granted I'll actually be let down if she won't read it because I think it could really help, but maybe it would take the pressure off of her if she feels that I'm leaving it up to her. What's your opinion? Others besides Wiley feel free to chime in as well.
No need to apologize, I'm not big on those, they tend to remind your W of what it is that she didn't like or whatever. Just don't go that route anymore and let it go, done issue, water under the bridge. Again, applying the principles to yourself and implementing the changes into the R without telling her is better than her reading it herself. Let her read you, thats what she eventually needs to do anyway.
Maybe down the road after you've drawn her back toward the "new Sooner", you can visit the idea again, but not now, its too early and she is fairly entrenched in her current mindset.
Hi Sooner, I've got a time crunch again, but I wanted to touch base with you.
You've done your job with communicating with your W. She knows where you stand. Now you give her space, just like you're trying to do. Here's a spin on that which may make it easier for you to feel sincere...you're giving her less physical contact because that's what she has indicated she wants. You've heard her and you're respecting her position. Don't read anything else into her position except that for now she needs space. (You're going to want to know for how long though, right? I don't know the answer to that! Try not to think about it.)
This approach is not a manipulation tactic to make her want sex. It is not an attempt to hurt her or drive home what less physical contact means. It is simply giving her what she has asked for. You love her. You've heard her. Your love for her is the reason you're giving her what she wants even though you don't much like it. This is what you think to yourself, not what you say to her. Don't say anything to her. Just do it (or rather don't do it.)
No need to apologize. You haven't done anything wrong. You tried the first obvious approach, talk about a problem, and it didn't solve the problem immediately. The positive thing is that your W isn't clueless about how you feel. That is a success. (Take a deep breath, let it out and with it let go of the need to provide more information. )
At some point...after much space has been given...you can always show understanding for the pressure she must have felt. The reason to do that is not to apologize, but to open up the situation for mutual give and take and understanding. Acknowledging how another person may have felt is a friendly gesture which often makes it easier for him/her to reciprocate. But don't do it right now! I think she's a bit annoyed with you and those feelings need to dissipate. (No, I do not know how long it will take! )
I had some more stuff I wanted to share with you, but will have to wait for later. It doesn't have anything to do with understanding your wife. It has more to do with the fact that you and I have both been the less-satisfied member of a marriage, although for different reasons. There are some things you can do which will lead to a greater sense of satisfaction and intimacy without any change on the part of your spouse. But you have to want that sense of satisfaction and intimacy more than you want specific behavior change from your spouse.
Best, MPT
P.S. Boy, I can type alot when I've got a time crunch.
You have such great advice for Sooner MPT, I wish you had some for me. I have no solutions whatsoever except to try and be patient. This I have been doing but I have this nagging fear that when I do this H will think that all is well and then not do anything about the sitch.
My Hs desire is totally gone. I'm not crying out for more, just crying out for some, any... We have ML only twice in two years and that is only recently after the months of my telling H about how unhappy I am about the lack of intimacy in my M so he did it to pacify me, one counsellor calls this Mercy Sex.
H is now talking about a second child so I know he will initiate sometime in the future for that purpose. That is not what I want at all. I want my H to ML to me because he wants to and afterwards, I want him to hold me, stroke my hair and tell me he loves me etc. H never does that. When we were courting, H would IMMEDIATELY get up to do some studies right after ML and when we were trying for a baby, H would get up immediately afterwards to chat online with his best buddy. Now I fear that if we were to try for another kid, he would get up immediately afterwards to play a PC game or do some work. How to I tell him all this without getting him upset or feeling pressured, I simply have no idea and so I keep quiet and try to maintain peace and harmony in my home.
I love my H dearly and cannot find any fault in him so I surely do not want to create an unhappy atmosphere at home but is keeping quiet the answer? There is a mismatch of desire in my M but I do not know what to do about it. I guess it has always been this way even when we were courting but then H did cheat on me with a coworker then (during courting days) so I thought maybe its me he doesn't want. However thats over now. H ended the A, I have forgiven him, we have moved forward, but he still has no desire for me. What can I do? I'm so lost.
Quoting sooner1992: Can you give me any tips as to how I can get her to read it? I've tried the "let's work on this problem together" approach, but she still feels like I'm attacking her and she hates me for it. Any advice you can give me concerning ways to make progress will be greatly appreciated Sooner
Sooner-
I agree whole heartedly with MPT. You don't want to smother the small spark that seems to be there. I'm glad your wife read my post. I hope she felt some kind of connection with the words I posted.
I agree that you need to give her room to breath. However, I know that when my H did that I often had a sigh of relief and thought "well thank God he's not bugging me for sex, it's about dam time!"
Do you read the book in front of your wife? I'm thinking that maybe if she saw you reading in bed, she might lean over to take a peek. What if you were taking notes too? That wouldv'e made me curious.
I will get my H's opinion on this one. It's a delicate thing because it seems like her reading the posts was such a big step forward and you don't want to do something to take two steps back.
You have to remember it's a hard thing to admit you have a problem with intimacy. I think once your w realizes that you love her and not sex and that you are attracted to her and not sex she may see things differently. Those two thoughts are basically what changed my desire. I came to realize what my H really wanted. Took me eight years, but at least I got it!
Lis - thanks for your advice. I really apprecate you taking the time to think about my situation and I look forward to your future input.
Here's my latest plan. I’m trying to “lovingly detach” from my wife in hopes of eventually making some headway in the intimacy department. However, some of the things that I’ve listed below seem like they might do more harm than good – for instance by causing her to feel “less close” to me. But maybe that’s what’s needed. Maybe my relationship is to the point where it has to get worse before its going to get better. All I know is that the things I’ve previously tried haven’t worked so I need to try something else.
Listed below are some specific things that I’m either trying or considering.
1. Eliminate discussion of relationship, sex, my feelings, etc. At this point she already knows how I feel about all of that. I think there’s no question about this one.
2. Don’t initiate any physical contact. Specifically:
a) Don’t try to cuddle in bed or elsewhere. Stay to my side of the bed and make sure not to even touch her.
b) Don’t initiate holding hands. I assume that if she initiates this I should go ahead and do it.
c) Avoid the occasional goodbye kiss as much as possible. If she actually initiates this, I assume that I should go ahead and kiss her rather than turning away or otherwise refusing? FYI, throughout our sex-starved period she has continued to give me a goodbye kiss most days when leaving for work. It’s been on the lips, but not really romantic – just a peck. Besides this she never kisses me – for example upon coming home from work, from a trip out of town, at bedtime, etc.
d) Don’t put a hand on her arm, shoulder, knee, etc. when sitting or laying within reach of her (like on the couch watching TV).
e) Don’t initiate any hugs.
3. Don’t say “I love you” when ending phone calls. We’ve always done this and I think it bothers her a bit that I’ve stopped doing so over the past few days. I’m curious about whether this is the right thing to do. I can accept that I’m just trying to do what she wants by having less physical contact, but what would I say if she asks why I suddenly stopped saying ILY. Any suggestions? Also, I assume that if she ends a call by saying ILY I should say it back rather than sound like a jerk – or should I just say “Okay, bye”.
4. Don’t create opportunities for the two of us to be alone. I don’t want to put her in a pressure situation where she feels like she needs to do anything romantic. We seldom go to bed together due to the fact that one of us always goes upstairs with the girls to read stories, but if the opportunity arises I plan to stay up until after she’s asleep. Also, I had been trying to plan occasional weekend trips just for the two of us. I’ve stopped doing that for the time being. I also occasionally ask if she wants to go see a movie, go out to see a band, etc. I’ve stopped that as well.
5. Don’t call her unless I have a good reason – like to coordinate who is picking up the girls after work. I had been trying to call fairly frequently just to say hello, and I’ve always called on the way home from work, etc. just to see if she needed anything, but I’ve stopped doing that.
6. Continue to take care of my portion of the responsibilities at home. Help with laundry, dinner, washing dishes, cleaning house, taking care of the girls, etc. But don’t go out of my way to do things specifically for her – for instance washing her car.
7. Do things with the girls more often. A couple of nights ago I took my 5-year old fishing for the first time at a little pond just down the street in our subdivision. It was fun (she caught her first fish) and doing things like this with my girls definitely takes my mind off of relationship issues.
I’d sure appreciate some input on the things that I’ve listed here, and any suggestions relative to other things that I could do to “lovingly detach”.
I know you are desparate to try and motivate the desire for change in your wife and nothing seems to be working. Being in the same miserable situation as you, I probably shouldn't be giving any advice, but I will tell you my strategy for what it is worth.
I will write two letters to her, one a warm and heartfelt message explaining how much I love, admire and adore her. In that letter also will explain that I have felt that our communication in the intimacy department has become counterproductive at this time (not to blame her or me but it just has become extremely negative) and that we need to develop a more health mechanism to openly communicate in a non hostile environment. As a suggestion, I will explain that part of our communication should initally be in writing so that we can properly express our feelings. I would like to suggest some ground rules that we must try and adhere to at all costs when communicating in writing and verbally, including always considerin having a positive element to what we are saying, always be respectful, don't interupt, take time to respond, just know that we love each other and the discussions on this topic are to enhance an otherwise loving situation. I would invite other suggestions on how the process of communication can be improved and again reiterate how much we love each other.
The second written communication would explain how I love everything about her and that part of this is how much I love to hold her, touch her, kiss her and, yes, make love to her. For me to feel truly connected, I need all of these elements and if I am missing any one of them, it breaks me apart. Yes I am vulnerable and I need the full meal deal, not just the verbal/intellectual love, not just the non-sexual intimacy part and not just the making love part. I need all of these elements to feel truly connected and we have been lacking in one of these elements. I would go onto explain that, as stupid and shallow as it might appear to her and to the outside world, the lack of this element in our relationship has resulted in a very heavy toll on me personally and has negatively affected the relationship, which I am sure she also feels. I do not believe it is positive to detail the shortcomings of each other, however, the two of us need to develop a plan to change our situation over the long term. The plan should be slow and gradual and we need to know that we are working on this together so that we can both be madly in love with each other for the rest of our lives. The issue isn't about me or my need for intimacy, the issue is about us. And as we both feel connected to each other, we will also have a stronger and better feeling about ourselves. Our feelings about us as a couple, and me and her as individuals, are inseparable and we must realize that if one of us is unhappy for whatever reason, it affects us as a couple and as individuals. I would ask her to respond in writing to what I had to say and then invite us to discuss how we can enhance both the process of communicationa and our relationship.
I am not sure when I will do this, but only when the climate is right.
With respect to your plan, I think you are headed for disaster. I think you have partially tried this plan (probably many times before), with always a bad result. Not only will it piss off your wife, but you will grow totally impatient with the situation, even though it is your plan.
Anyway, take these comments from a guy who has not found any answers to his situation.
I don't know the answer to that! 
Try not to think about it.)
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