I've never tried counseling, either with my wife or alone. This message board is about as close as I've gotten. I really doubt that my wife would see a counselor with me as I've mentioned it before and she's been less than enthused. I have considered seeing one by myself but I honestly can't get too excited about it either - mainly because I doubt that it will help very much. Nonetheless I haven't ruled it out. I'm sure you've stated in your posts but I've forgotten - have you seen a counselor? If so, did it help any?
Over the "long term" I really don't think my situation is hopeless - although my wife and I certainly have a lot of obstacles to overcome. I honestly believe that as our girls get older and more independent, my wife will begin to have a need for me again - not just sexually but also as her best friend and companion. She's quite overwhelmed right now between dealing with the girls, her job, and everything else going on in our lives. This leaves her little time to think about me, much less to desire making love to me.
However, my outlook for the short term is more dismal. I feel like we're wasting the time that we have together and as a result I want things to be better now. I feel lucky to have a beautiful, sexy wife and it kills me to get a glimpse of her gorgeous body as she changes clothes or to lie inches away from her in bed without being able to act on my desires. It's like having a Ferrari in the garage and not being able to drive it, or for that matter even to open the door and sit in it. It's killing me!
I appreciate your support - please do pass along anything you think of that might help.
Yes, I went away for a long weekend with H. Not ignoring you.
I have been thinking more about your situation.
As the LD spouse I am very conscience of when my H wants to have sex. The normal approach is late at night, he'll snuggle up to me. Typically he comes to bed later than me and I am already sleeping. So this is not the best timing for me.
As I thought about this I realized that it doesn't really work for me and asked myself what would work better.
When H wants to have sex I would like it if he would let me know a couple hours earlier so I can get my mindset in that direction. Also sleep is very important to me, so I would also like it if we could start earlier so I can be asleep by 10. I would also like to know if he just wants to snuggle, kiss or if he wants sex.
I guess what I am trying to say is that verbal clarity for me is important. A lot of times I have no idea what H really wants. I used to assume it was always sex. So I would turn off all intimacy. I am learning that sometimes he just wants to snuggle or just wants a kiss. I have asked him to let me know verbally what he wants.
Maybe it would help your W if you said something like "Tonight I would love to snuggle with you, I don't want to have sex, can we just snuggle?" Let her know earlier in the day. Ask permission. This way she is in control and maybe won't feel anxious about what you want when you come to bed.
You could also try asking earlier in the day about sex. "I would love to make love with you tonight, can we have sex tonight?" This way the pressure is off of her in the moment. She can say yes or no. If she says yes. Ask her what she needs. Kids to bed early? Dishes done? romantic dinner first.
If she says no maybe you could ask her when a good time would be. If she doesn't know ask her if you could plan a night away and plan to have sex then. Don't give up.
For a LD person who is not applying the SSM techniques, going to bed with HD spouse can be down right scary. It's a fear of the unknown. "What do they want from me tonight?" is the underlieing question.
As an experiment maybe you could try being clear everyday and every night for a month. Also let her know when you don't want to have sex. "Tonight I just want to go to sleep". She may be surprised.
In the past my H would approach me at bedtime. And I am finding that this is the worst time for me. I am tired and worried that if I stay up late my next day will be dragging. I am finding that I like mornings after coffee, expecially Sundays, after I sleep in have coffee and shower. At that time I feel great, rested and have more to give.
I also think that going to bed with each other every night is important. Although the pressure is off of both of you with different bedtimes, I think it is just an avoidance. I feel abandonded when H stays up later than me.
I think silence is a marriage killer. Try to be clear about what you want and ask for it.
Have you tried this before?
I told you before that there was nothing that H could have done. But I think I was wrong. I think there were and are things that H can do to make sex a better experience for me. And this is one thing that I figured out.
I will let you know if I figure out more stuff.
Also I found a website called marriagebuilders.com. There are some great articles you may be interested in.
Hello again: I have tried one session with a therapist and found that it was surprising in its effectiveness. It really got me thinking more about things from other perspectives (besides my own). And I found that I was able to be more emphathetic with my W. I would like to go back but $ is an issue there. I just thought that maybe even one call to one of the DB coaches could help clarify things or give you a ray of hope. You never know.
Your analogies are great -- I know how you feel about the Ferrari. I have felt that way many, many times. It's a wonder to me how men and women can truly be so different sometimes.
Quote: It's a wonder to me how men and women can truly be so different sometimes.
it's not a man woman thing...it's an individual thing...I've got a man!! wathcing him cut down trees in the yard...watching him work...(offering to help) but for whatever reason I can't always have him. an occasional test drive just to keep me interested but I don't have free access to this fine ferrari I've got!!
I appreciate all the thought (and typing) that you've put into my situation. Like your husband, I usually go to bed quite a bit later than my wife, try to snuggle up to her, wake her up, and basically make her mad in the process. She's a morning person while I'm a night person. Unfortunately we're seldom able to go to bed together because one of us has to read stories to the girls and get them sleep. If she goes upstairs with them, she usually falls asleep before they do and doesn't come back downstairs until the middle of the night. If I take the girls to bed I'm usually back downstairs by 10 p.m., but my wife is sound asleep. At that point I usually stay up for a while because I’m afraid that if I get in bed I’ll lie there awake until I end up pestering her. I'd love to be able to go to bed with her and I'm hoping this will become easier as the girls become more independent. Of course I've got no problem with morning sex either if that works better for her, but there aren't many mornings when at least one of the girls hasn't come downstairs and gotten into bed with us. Also, morning sex doesn't lend itself to a lot of kissing thanks to morning breath.
I've never really let my wife know ahead of time that I'd like to have sex with her later that night. I'd love to be able to do this, especially if it would make things easier on her, but I honestly don't know if it would do any good. I'm afraid that it would be awkward for her and that just asking would lead to the sex argument. Do you think that's a valid concern? I suppose I could try it and see how she reacts. Also, I'm a little afraid that I'd end up asking her every night. Maybe when the frequency gets back to normal sex won't be the only thing on my mind, but right now I can't imagine there being a night when I don't want to make love to my wife. Maybe if I was really sick, but that's about it. Actually though, there are a lot of times that I would love to be able to cuddle with her and kiss her without it resulting in sex, and I especially miss sleeping naked with her and just feeling her body against mine. When we started going out, she nearly insisted that we sleep naked together - and it only took about one night before I became a big fan of that arrangement. Now she practically goes to bed fully clothed and I really miss the feeling of her bare skin against mine.
Mornings after coffee would be great for me, but between the kids and both of us working we don't get such opportunities very often. Actually never, unless we happen to be away in a hotel together. By the way, I'm going to San Diego for business next weekend and my wife is flying out to join me for a long weekend. I’m in a pretty good mood as I write this because I made love to my wife this morning for the first time since I started posting to this message board. Now if I can just keep from screwing up (via the sex argument, etc.) maybe things will continue to improve.
Jeffo and lostlove – thanks for your responses as well. Glad to know that my Ferrari analogy hit home with someone else. Driving a Ferrari is so much more exciting than riding a unicycle!
Have patience. Maybe, like you said, you'll get a little more time together when your kids get a little more independent. I've decided that my wife and I need to go out once every week without the kids. It is helping.
The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.
Sooner, I just found this site and went directly to your message. I'm shaking and freaking out after reading your story because it is almost as if I had written it. So many of the details are my experience as well. I totally feel for you and in some wrong oblique way it is comforting to know that there are others who are dealing with the frustrations that have been tearing me apart from the inside out. I'm almost in a panic to respond to everything that has been said in many of these messages. I want to cry but I can't, I can only feel utterly profound sadness eating away at my heart. There are people that have worse situations than me, including you, Sooner. My story has a few perplexing twists to it, which I'll try to express.
First, let me apologize ahead of time for my attitude, I’m just so frustrated.
Currently on average we have sex 1.23567 times per month and it's pretty decent about half the time, but then when you're starving anything seems wonderful. Still, for me it is overwhelming and it is affecting the rest of my life. I now deal with bouts of depression, self doubt, panic attacks, listlessness, fatigue, anxiety, inability to perform at work, sleeplessness, high blood pressure...the ugly list goes on. Some days I actually get chest pain and feel lightheaded and dizzy when I get the rejection or get caught in the downward spiral of contemplating the problem.
I'm a kind sensitive guy (gaining an ugly edge of cynicism and sarcasm) with average looks, weight and build in his mid 30's. My wife is a few years younger than me and the sexiest creature on the earth. I absolutely adore her. I still feel as passionately about her as I did almost 15 years ago when we married. She has a body that most women would die to have (and men, but in a different way!) She works out a few times a week and dresses very stylishly, but not overly done. She's funny, intelligent, well-educated, thoughtful and sweet. Frankly, I get aroused when she walks into the room or just hearing her voice on the phone. In her viewpoint this makes me a pervert and overly sexual person. Unfortunately, her sexual spark for me faded very quickly, probably due to getting pregnant with our son a week after getting married. We never got to be a couple before we were a family. I think this was the beginning of the trouble. Before we got married we had a wild sex life. We would make love for hours. It's hard to imagine the effort we would go to just to make love. Now it's an occasional fairly quick event, more of something she does just when her chemistry is working (once a month, basically) or to satisfy my begging. The in between is incredibly painful and makes the month drag. Sometimes 2-3 months will pass without any intimacy. I go insane!!
I totally understood the "Ferrari" analogy. Since we are talking about starvation on this site mine might appropriate: that you've been invited to live and banquet with the king so you sell all of your possessions and burn every bridge behind you. There's no going back. When you get to the castle the king doesn't give you any food for months or a scrap here and there but makes you sit at his table every night and watch the royalty gorging themselves on an incredible feast. If you complain he throws you in the dungeon for a few days to sober you up. When you're finally broken he lets you come back to the table and if you're really behaving well you can crawl under the table and eat whatever has fallen between the cracks. You're no longer allowed to leave the castle and no one is allowed to give you anything on the side. This cycle continues for a decade and a half.
So far it sounds pretty much like what a lot of others have talked about on this site. Here's the frustrating twist. My wife thinks I'm a great person and a dear friend. She can't imagine being with any other man and we tell each other that we love each other at least everyday. I'm hopelessly romantic and used to shower her with praises and compliments until she started getting more irritated at me for telling her how gorgeous she is and how much I desire her. We like a lot of the same things and laugh and joke quite a bit. We go out for lunch every week and a dinner and movie or a play most weekends. We’re both pretty busy with professional careers but isn’t everybody? I’m getting so tired of hearing that she’s had a stressful day so she’s not in the mood. Life is stressful and tiring, people still have a sex life! She rarely wants to kiss me and not passionately. It’s not that I don’t enjoy a peck on the cheek; it’s just that I need a lot more. She likes to hug, which is both delicious and excruciating at the same time since I’m dying for it to lead to more later on. She likes to have me caress her in a non-sexual way, which kills me (refer to the feast analogy!), she likes to spoon and practically sleeps half on top of me. How can a man have a woman that he’s extremely in love with and attracted to touching him and not get aroused? I’m going out of my mind! As soon as I initiate I get flat out rejection and then a nasty mood to tip toe around for a while. If I bring it up (gently and sensitively, of course) to discuss my sexual frustration she gets irritated and angry. She says I’ve just got to deal with it or find someone else. I don’t understand this. I know she really doesn’t want me to leave her and I definitely don’t want someone else, I just want her, I want to see that flame of desire return to her eyes. The key to a man’s heart is make him feel desired.
I’ve tried getting her to take aphrodisiacs, no way. She won’t consider therapy because from her perspective there’s nothing wrong. She believes that I am over sexual and need to masturbate (I actually have a difficult time being interested enough in just an orgasm to masturbate) or read poetry to deal with my frustration. In her viewpoint, the only problem is the fact that I am always after her. After a week or two of keeping my desire to myself. I can’t even look at her with horny eyes” or make any colorfully flirty comments. Long walks in the park do nothing but make me ache for her. It’s less painful not to be around her than it is to be exposed to her lovely
I believe that all these years of repressing my desires are causing emotional and even physical damage. Sometimes I go to sleep with my testicles in pain from having such an perpetual erection and no relief. I feel like I am wasting my youthful passion and exuberance. This problem in the bed is leaking over into all the areas of my life: I’m becoming tense, short-tempered with everyone, neurotic. In another decade I probably won’t enjoy sex that much either (although, I honestly can’t imagine what that must be like). It’s not sex that I’m after as much as deep intimacy (through sexual/sensual contact).
Basically, she’s not even interested in being interested. If I bring it up she gets negatively emotional and says that I’m only with her for the sex (What sex!?) and that if I’m not happy with her I should find someone else. I know that’s not really what she wants. It doesn’t matter if we go on vacation (even worse since my sexuality perks way up when we go on vacation) or I clean the house or take care of the kid (I take care of him more often) or having a romantic dinner ready for her or offer a massage or buy her a dress.
There is not one single connection I can make between anything I do and the rare event that she becomes interested in me. This leads to me to believe that the problem begins simply with an hormonal imbalance, a subject that I haven’t seen many people talking about on this web site so far. Whether the low-libido spouse is a man or woman I think they need to begin by having a thorough hormone test to see if anything is off. It is sad to think how many relationships have disintegrated or at least been aggravated due to a simple chemical that they have too much of or not enough of. I have a friend that is one of the kindest guys you could meet that lost his marriage to early menopause, a condition that few people know about but that I suspect is culprit in destroying many women’s libidos. As for the men with low libidos...I can not comprehend your experience. The only time my libido goes down is when I get my sexual approaches trampled on. Even if I’m sick I know one thing that would cheer me up!
Anyway, I’ve gone on and on about my problems. Sorry if I’ve bored y’all. What can I do? I think about all I can do is get therapy for myself to learn low libido spouse survival techniques. Any ideas out there? I am going crazy.
I certainly understand what you're going through - your situation does have a lot of similarities to mine. I obviously can't offer much advice, but I'll keep an eye on your posts and pass along anything I find that might help.
Fred, thanks for your encouragement as always.
Here's a quick update on my situation. After making love to my wife yesterday morning for the first time in roughly 3 months, I'm still hoping to build on that little bit of success. Last night my wife again fell asleep upstairs and didn't get back downstairs until the middle of the night. This morning I woke up at 5:20 and tried to cuddle up to her, and as usual I got the reaction "Sooner (she actually used my real name however) - just let me sleep a little longer!" So I rolled back over and left her alone. About 5 minutes later her alarm went off and she got up and started getting ready for work without ever acknowleging me. If she only realized how much it would mean to me if she'd cuddle up to me a little or give me a kiss before getting out of bed. Maybe she does and just doesn't care.
This evening on the way home from work I stopped and got her some flowers along with a card that just said "I love you". I wanted to let her know that I appreciated her making an effort. She doesn't have to work on Fridays so I was hoping she might be open to "another round" tonight - I want so badly to get over the anxiety that results from only having sex every few weeks at best. But at the moment she's asleep upstairs, so tonight is probably out of the question. Maybe tomorrow - who knows.
It really bothers me feeling like there's something wrong with me for wanting to make love to my wife. If she had any idea how badly or how often I want her, I'd probably be in trouble all the time. She acts like she'd prefer it if I didn't find her the least bit appealing. I can't understand that because the greatest desire that I have is to be adored by her - to know that no matter what happens I can come home to someone who's madly in love with me and feels lucky to have me. But around my wife, I no longer feel attractive, sexy, smart, funny, confident, or the least bit desirable. I married her because I wanted a soul mate, but it feels like she only married me because she wanted a roommate.
If nothing else, being here reading about other people in virtually the same situation as I am gives me the comfort to know there is nothing wrong with me. Like you Aching man, my W was trying to convince me that sex once a month was normal and I was some kind of pervert for wanting more. It was my problem and not hers. I can so relate to your story as well as Sooner's. 1-2 times a day would be like paradise. Lateley is been 1-2 times a week which is like being let out of prison or something. I'd love more but sure as heck won't complain after 8 years of once a month. It took me almost leaving (not over the sex issue but because she had an EA) to get the change. I hope that you guys don't have to do anything as drastic.
The most important thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother.
Let me say that when the opportunity arises I will nominate you for sainthood. I identify with your situation so much. Everytime you express your frustration with your lack of sex life you could sign my name to the message. While it is comforting to realize that others are going through this too, it makes me very angry. I’m sorry I should be patient and all that but I think it is such a shame that so many people are suffering for such a ridiculously wonderful aspect of being alive. I can’t help believe that for a lot of low libidoers it begins with an attitude adjustment. Whether you (low libs) think it is important or not the fact is well established that SEX (what a lovely word, no?) is healthy, important and necessary for a sane relationship.
Here’s some great facts I came across:
“WHY SEX IS GOOD FOR YOU” By Laura Snyder
Better sleep. A sexier physique. Stronger immunity. Sound like the effects of the latest wonder drug? Nope, it's just the many physical benefits of having a satisfying sexual relationship.
And all this time you were just making love because it was fun! If you're looking for more reasons to get romantic, consider the following:
1.You're getting a good workout. Would you rather run 75 miles or have sex three times a week for one year? While both burn the same number of calories (about 7,500), one is decidedly more pleasurable than the other. Regular sex - which burns approximately 150 calories in a half-hour -- is regular exercise. You'll have all the same benefits of spending that time in the gym, including improved circulation, lower cholesterol and the release of feel-good endorphins.
2.You won't get sick. According to research by Dr. Carl Charnetski, professor of psychology at Wilkes University in Wilkes-Barre, Pa and co-author of Feeling Good is Good For You, people who reported one or two sexual episodes per week enjoyed higher levels of Immunoglobin A, the antibody that helps fend of illness.
3.You'll feel happier. In addition to the obvious boost in satisfaction, feeling secure in your relationship leads to a greater sense of well-being. Women in particular may see even more benefits. Researchers at the State University of New York at Albany found that women who regularly came into contact with semen were significantly less depressed than those who didn't get a dose of those potent sex hormones and naturally occurring opiates.
4.You'll reduce stress. People who get it on regularly report that they handle stress better. The release of climax will get even the most anxious lover totally relaxed, and you know you'll sleep better.
5.You'll live longer (and look younger!). A British study of 1,000 men found that those who had at least two orgasms per week had half the death rate of those who indulged less than once a month. Sex can make you look longer, too, according to neuropsychologist David Weeks, who found that men and women who reported having sex an average of four times per week looked approximately 10 years younger than they really were.
Of course, I know I’m preachin to the choir here. The biggest problem I see is how do we convince our low lib spouses that intimacy is important enough to make it one of the top priorities in our relationships. Were not just talking having a good time; we’re talking health issue.
I get so ticked for feeling guilty to wanting to make love to my wife. This is insane. Sooner just mentioned the same thing. This is so debilitating. How can we get this across? There almost needs to be a national campaign to Fix Our Sex Lives. I may come off a bit heavy handed here but I’m angry that so many peoples lives are affected by this.
Anyway, I guess I should put this up instead of ramblin on.
By the way, I broke my vow of silence and requested sex last night. She just rolled her eyes and said,”ugh”. I guess that was a “no”.
I’m in a pretty good mood as I write this because I made love to my wife this morning for the first time since I started posting to this message board. Now if I can just keep from screwing up (via the sex argument, etc.) maybe things will continue to improve.