When you say no to champagne....

[shinybear]

Sage, I can't speak for your H, but for mine (and he is very perceptive for a guy, heck for a human being), it helps him when I let him know that other stuff is bothering me.

We needn't get all weak and freaky and obsessive...but just a heads up so they're not thinking the worst themselves...like "Oh no, Sage must be doubting me again...she looks sad..."

Wouldn't it be better to say "Oh hon, I'm a little off my game today, stuff from work, but I'll try to blow it off..."

Just a thought.

Shiny

[sage]

well, had a big R talk with H. last night. Read on for the stream of consciousness details...

The conversation started with some bad DB'ing...we went out to dinner and I think I was stressed out or something because as we were leaving, I made a comment that could have been interpreted by the owner of the restaurant as bad and H. said "what are you doing?" a bit abruptly and I ended up in tears. H. asked me what was wrong and I said that I was just feeling sorry for myself. That I'm still really sad about what has happened to us and that there are times when I just don't feel as though I know what to fix in myself. H. was silent -- didn't seem mad -- but also didn't really respond. After a few minutes of driving he held my hand, kissed it, tried to cheer me up and said "I love you so much. I think that you are wonderful."

We got home and went to watch tv. I still was feeling sorry for myself and was trying to distract myself by reading. I cried a bit (ugh, why didn't I just excuse myself?) and H. asked what was wrong -- was there anything that I wanted to talk about. (Note -- this is a huge departure from usual -- generally my emotions get him into "angry man mode" )

I reiterated what I said before -- that I was often confused about what had happened and that I felt like if I didn't understand the root cause, I didn't know how to keep it from happening again. H. said that he didn't think that it was that logical -- that the A wasn't the "thing" but that we were too different -- that I was always "analyzing and chewing things into little bits" and that he was more relaxed and able to just let stuff be. He said that I was always reading books and listening to tapes to find "the answer". And that he didn't think that I would ever be happy.

we talked a bit about what life was like before the A and he said that I always seemed so unhappy and searching and expecting something from him. He said that one of the reasons that he thinks he had the A was that I kept acting like he was cheating on me -- mistrustful and suspicious -- and he says he thinks there was a part of him that wanted to just "give you what you were looking for". I agreed with him that I had been unhappy, that I was always looking for the other shoe to drop, that I had been so afraid and confused and that in my fear, had tried to control and manipulate him.

Without sounding angry, he just sounded resigned that the M. was over -- due to our "differences" in personality. He said that neither one of us was bad or broken but that he didn't see how we could ever make it work and that he would "kill himself" if we were still having this same conversation at 65. He said that he's known me forever and that things will never change.

I asked him if he had seen changes in us over the last few months because I certainly had. I told him how much I appreciated his efforts at our M. and he said that he had done it consciously that he had decided to "love me as much as" he could "to see if it would help but it didn't". I told him that when I could see through my fears over the last few months, that I've had many joyful moments with him. He said something like "I haven't really done much" and I responded with a list of the small things that he's been doing (meeting me at the door, making plans for us, calling just to chat, the surprise events, etc) that have meant so much.

He said that he feels an undercurrent of anxiety from me and that he can't live his life wondering if tonight is the night when his wife is going to burst into tears. I told him that he was right about the anxiety and that a lot of it was based in not feeling as though we could talk about his A.

I asked him when the A started and he said sometime last spring but he didn't have "an anniversary date". He said that he knew that it was wrong and that early on he told ow that it would be over some day. He said that because he said that over and over to her that by the time I found out and the A ended, that he had already detached and it didn't feel like a big deal to him to end it. I made some comment like "well, she was a big part of your life" and he said "I don't know if this makes it worse but she wasn't.". I made some not-very-nice comment about why her and he said "why not her? do you think I'd pick someone like you? she's nothing like you" I asked what that meant and he said "she doesn't over analyze anything. and she doesn't have your 'towering intellect'" (note that this was said without sarcasm -- I'm assuming it's not my brainpower that irks H. but how I use it!)

I got off my chest a few things -- that it felt like a double betrayal that ow sought out a friendship with me during the A. (he said that he never encouraged her to do that) and that when he was telling me that he was going to quit his job that he said that my "paranoia and evilness" would harm ow. He apologized for that, said that he had just known that he needed to quit then before I found out about the A and he'd have to quit under extreme pressure.

The tone of the whole conversation was calm (outside at least). It was scary and disheartening to hear that H. feels as though we're too different to "work". He had nailed all of the stuff that I had figured out about myself pretty squarely but there was a definite sense that "people don't change -- we'll never be happy". There was also the sense that my even trying to work on my fears, etc with a therapist was a sign that things were too broken...My response to that was that I knew for myself, with him or without him, that I needed to address my fears and insecurities and that I would continue to do that whether the M. survived or not. (I didn't say that bitchy)

I asked him if it would freak him out if I said that I wasn't giving up on us and he said it wouldn't.

When we went to bed, he told me that he loved me, was affectionate (holding my hand) as we were falling asleep. This morning I got a quick hug in bed (I love those!) and we went to a 6am spinning class together. When we got home and were standing around the kitchen, H. thanked me for the conversation of last night and thanked me for "hearing through" his convoluted way of conversing. I told him that the conversation hadn't seemed convoluted at all and that I really appreciated him talking with me so honestly.

So. Where are we now? Well, it's clear to me that I need to keep doing the work on myself that I was doing -- for me, for H., for M. It's also pretty clear to me that I need to work on how to communicate my feelings without them being a "monkey wrench" in the system (or a major blowup). I need to let go of A. I need to stop aplogizing for who I am. And, I need to work on striving for my happiness.

I also think that H. and I are doing the right things in our M. for the most part. The going out, the intimacy, the element of surprise, the celebration of our love, etc. I have to "relax into it" as I've said before -- but, I knew that!

I love that my H. put his mind to loving me as much as he could -- I'm feeling good that last night's conversation didn't derail that effort as painful and scary as it was.

If you've read this far, thanks! I'd love to hear your comments.

Sage

[erinr]

Hey Sage,
Sounds like there was some really positive things going on in your conversation. Concentrate on that. I will respond more later. I have a big R talk coming up tonight and PMA is low. I don't feel like it's going to go well. This is when I wish I knew another dber. I could use someone to talk to, not type to.

Erin

[erinr]

Sage and anyone else,

I have posted a looong e-mail from my H in response to something stupid I did. It is going to lead to a r talk tonight. I'm confused about how to do it, what to say, where to go. I could use as much help/advice as possible.
Please, please, please,

Erin

[erinr]

Hey Sage,
It's just me again. Thanks for your response. I responded on my thread. I wrote a huge letter, but I cut most of it, the defensive stuff, the accusatory stuff and left in the positive things I've been seeing and my hopes for the future plus the fact that I'm letting all the stuff about ff go and be part of the past. I can't help but hope that he would see how different her actions are from her words, but time will tell. In the meantime, thinking about her is eating me up and I need to stop. In the revised letter, I also included a letter I never gave him regarding my needs as outlined in DR. It is a positive and hopefully helpful letter designed to move us forward, not keep us entrenched in the past. If you have strong feelings against that, let me know before 6:00 or it;ll be too late!
Thanks for the advice,
Erin

[KAW]

Hi Sage,

He had nailed all of the stuff that I had figured out about myself pretty squarely but there was a definite sense that "people don't change -- we'll never be happy".

This is very fixable!! Your talk was also a positive step in the right direction. You now have confirmation of what you need to do to keep drawing you closer. Continue working on keeping the positive changes going and before you know another change will occur ... he will change his POV that people can't change.

'til later,
KAW

[shinybear]

Sage!

I must say, I'm a little shocked. This view of your H's that your M may not be "fixable" as people can't change is a very harmful one!

I suppose you, of the "towering intellect" (not sarcastic, just another similarity we share ) know exactly what you need to do now..PROVE HIM WRONG!

I KNOW you can do this. We are so similar Sage, and I've done the very same thing. In fact, I believe that my genuine internal changes are part of why H and I are still together and there is real hope here.

I think your conversation, painful though it must have been to hear those words, is a definte step in the right direction. Particularly since it didn't end with him just throwing in the towel!

However I have great empathy for you, too. Why can't he be strong enough to comfort you if you burst into tears? So you are an anxious person by nature, shouldn't your S be your "soft place to land?"

Of course these are all feelings I too share, but my H seems a little better at accepting at least the anxiety and sadness (not so keen on the anger and sarcasm...but then those things I've been dealing with rather well).

So... Ms Sage with the "style" we all admire so... what will your new goals be? Prove him wrong, Sage, Do it!
And not just for him or your M, but for YOU! I feel like a much better, stronger person for all of my changes and I know you do too. He just needs to be convinced that it is possible.

Need cheerleaders? Look no further .

Shiny

[sage]

Hey SB,

Well, the people don't change mantra has been H's for a while. WE've talked about it quite a bit over the years -- it's only been recently that I've realized that he and I may be talking about two different things -- we get wrapped around the words of what he really means -- what's attributable to core personality, what's just behavior, etc.

As for the anxiety and sadness, well, I do have to say that I know the extremes that I feel are unhealthy for me. I feel an ongoing sense of doubt and concern about so many things -- well, I used to! I really and truly feel that my work with meditation and other things has helped me a lot in that area.

One of us here has a case of itchy butt so far tonight -- I know I'm feeling overly sensitive given last night's conversation...don't know what's up with him. I think I'll act "as if" he's a bit off due to the intimacy of last night's conversation, too.

I want to cut myself some slack at the same time...it was scary to hear the sense of finality in his voice at times last night -- even though the D word wasn't mentioned and we ended it well (and this AM was good, too). Feeling a bit freaked out about that seems perfectly normal.

My goals? gotta think about them.

Sage

[shinybear]

You know what Sage, now that I think about it, back after bomb #1, when H pointed out all of my flaws and faults, he too said something to the effect of it being our "basic personalities" that didn't mesh.

I strongly disagreed. Still do. I explained that personality is one thing, behaviours are another. Those are things we CAN change.

I suppose I am fortunate in that, unlike you, I have recieved messages of trust, honesty, and faith from my upbringing, which make these changes easier for me.

Really, though, I think it was when I had my meditative/prayer breakthrough (one long day shortly after Bomb #2) that I realized that I really, really would be okay NO MATTER WHAT...

This eased my existential angst to an amazing degree. This rippled through my everyday behaviours and reactions to things. It's something I still carry with me. I pray that if you have not found this place of profound peace and certainty, that you will... it may make all the difference

Shiny (((((Sage)))))

[kml]

Sage - don't forget this statement to make to your husband -
Why is it you believe I can change for the worse but not for the better?

Ellie