I was almost a WAW

[SouthernGirl]

Hi Southern Girl,

Since I'm not at work today and trying to just stay off my legs, I guess we can play "tag" on the computer (lol)

Seriously, thanks so much for your concern. A lot of my emotional distress over the fibro comes from people (that uneducated about the disease) who has given me a bad time over it....mostly the ones I work with, therefore, I dread calling in sick. I was on about three-four different AD at once for a short period of time.....and of course with the pain med and sleep meds, everything combined....it was too much to function. But the first AD the doctor placed me on when I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia was Prozac. I knew nothing about it and stayed on it for years. The depression got worse. I went to the doctor in tears and said I needed help badly. He put me on something that I thought was a miracle. For about one week I felt as though I had be reborn. I honestly felt as though I was seeing the world for the first time in years. Then it wore off in about two weeks, and I was back to square one again. He tried something else, and something else, and I just wasn't getting anywhere. Finally, I went to a different doctor that I heard worked with a lot of patients with Fibro. She kept me on what I was on plus added Welbutrin. I could not tell it helped. All in all, the AD just made me feel......nothing. Like I was dead. I think it contributed to the lack of sex desire a lot! I mean....I'm talking....nothing at all!

I did talk to my H at lunch time and he thinks that I should get back on the AD. So, if that is the way he feels, then I will probably do it. However, it is going to be about three weeks before I can get in to see the doctor. Now, he said this after I told him the others made me not have any sex desire......so he knows I'm bad depressed. I guess he figured it didn't make much difference for him.....where the sex is concerned, and maybe living with me would be easier if I wasn't so depressed.

Meh to people who give you a hard time. It's all that "it's all in your head" stuff, yes? Yes, it IS all in your head. Everyone's pain is all in their head. We simply do not "feel" pain anywhere except in the brain. Whether you broke an arm, have fibromyalgia, or whatnot, it is all "felt" in the brain. That's why stress and anxiety can make pain worse.

It's a lot of fun to compare back MRIs with the level of pain people experience. You can have a perfectly-looking MRI and the person is in a lot of pain. Other people look like a truck just backed over them, and they feel nothing. The brain works in mysterious ways, and we are only beginning to understand pain.

The trick with antidepressants is: give them time, and don't give up. Sometimes a combination works. Sometimes one. All of them need several weeks to be effective. Keep going back to your doctor and ask him/her to adjust or change the meds if you're not happy, and don't settle for something that can be improved.

Attempting to live with a brain chemistry that's out of whack is like trying to walk with one leg. There is no "prize" for being the most long-suffering, and the most apt at enduring pain. Life is short, and it's much too short to be so darn hard.

I'm glad you're doing something about it. Let us know what we can do to help.

[sandi2]

Thank you. I need that today. It sounds like you know where I'm coming from or else you are/have been in a like situation. I have let the attitude of those I work with bother me a lot. The main one has Lupus and she hardly ever misses work. I don't know how she does it. She goes everywhere and is involved in everything. She doesn't think anything is "really" wrong with me and has influenced that upon the others. Then one of the workers had breast cancer. She never had one minute of pain. It was discovered in very early stages, thank God, and she is doing fine. But, naturally, people think that if a person has cancer then they suffer....but there has been two that I have know personally that never had pain! Amazing. So, I'm sure I appear to be a big whimp! I can't help it. I suffered for 30 years before with a terrible back....still suffer, but that was before my fibro was diagnosed. Anyway, I have delt with pain for about 38 years. It does seem like it is getting a lot harder to deal with as I get older. That is what has amazed me about the Fibro.....I know I used to deal with back pain that was more intense than this kind of pain. For some reason...and I think it goes back to what is happening in the brain....this is totally different.

But, wow, it sure helps to talk to somebody that seems to understand.

[Dom R]

I did talk to my H at lunch time and he thinks that I should get back on the AD.

if you want your marriage to be right back where it was... then sure.

if you want it to improve... sounds like that is the absolute last thing you should do. (because of the way it messes with your sex drive. then again... maybe thats a positive thing right now.. hm)


Here's the thing, though, Sandi:

anti-depressants (supposedly) stop you from obsessing, and feeling so much emotional pain.

but, seems to me like marital recovery, is ALL ABOUT going through emotional pain, and to some degree, obsessing about how to make it better ('cause it takes that much drive, to go through the hurt it takes, to MAKE it better!)

I think if you're going to be messing with ADs, you might consider switching from a "doctor", to a "psychiatrist" who specializes in marital therapy also.
I think it's really important to have the person responsible for your "emotional medication", truely having a window into, and understanding, your current emotional situation.

Only trouble is... there's precious few around. most of them are just "counsellors" and "therapists".

-----------------

Something on weight gain:

But, it makes me sad to know that I lost weight and looked good for the OM.....why can't I seem to do that for my H?

It's not a matter of "cant". its a matter of "dont want to", ya know. weight loss doesnt "just happen" to someone (unless they get clinically depressed or something).
It's a choice to eat better.

You've read MB stuff. So, instead of thinking about "winning" your husband.. how about reframing it in MB terms?
What about thinking about it in terms of, showing your husband love by meeting his "emotional need" for an attractive wife?

'course, unfortunately, the WAW part of you is probably going to say to yourself, " I WANT to drive him away... I DONT WANT him to touch me!" Are you hearing a little voice, or feelings inside of yourself like that?

If so... are you going to be controlled by your negative emotions? or by your positive ones?

Cue the fireside story of the shaman telling a youngling about the story of "two hungry wolves fighting inside of him: one good, and kind, and caring; the other angry, and hateful, and violent". The youngster asks "Which one will win?" and he replies, "The one that I feed".

Are you going to feed your WAW feelings? Or perhaps passively let the WAW devour and take whatever it can?

Or are you going to choose to "feed the other wolf"?



I know it's really hard for you right now. you're in a lot of pain.
Yet, it's also the "selfish" thing, to be good to your husband

Dont you need, and want, someone to be with you through all of this?
There is no-one who cares about you more than he does. He is someone you can rely on. How about showing him that you appreciate that?


Side comment: you said that your skin crawled when he touched you. How do you feel when you touch him? Is it both ways, or just when he intiates touching you?

[sandi2]

DomR....you have given me, once again, a lot to think about. What you say about me and the anger I feel even toward the word "frigid" is true. My mother was labeled "frigid"....I think I told about that. Probably her attitude toward sex influnced me to some degree. However, I remember clearly on my wedding day, when a conversation developed between my mother and I, and I replied that I did not feel that way about it at all. My parents had a good M.....but they did have bedroom problems....due to my mother being "frigid" in bed.

My SIL was having problems before I was even a part of the family and didn't know too much about what was going on....like I said, people back then didn't discuss those things openly. I found out later that when she talked to me about it that she was having what we would now call LD. Now she adored her H! That was very plain to see. He was her entire world! So, that was not the problem. I just rememeber him being the one that was dissatisfied and blaming her for being "frigid", and her crying over it. I don't know if it was every resolved or not...she got sick and died. Then, I come along with apparently the same problem......and yes, I am sensitive about it. That was the only word I heard back then. I never heard the terms HD and LD, etc. As I said, they didn't discuss such matters on TV.

I react to that word when I read it from men on the board. I feel the need to come to women's recue when their H's say some things. Maybe I feel a certain "unfairness" to it.....I don't know, really. However, I am going to think about what you and some others have told me the past couple of days.

You are right about the lack of information that my H and I had. I do agree with you about everything you said. I appreciate what you said, also. I shouldn't blame my H b/c he isn't any more guilty than I was. We both were young and didn't know what to do to help each other.....and I'm sure I didn't make it a bit easy for him. He probably would say that I was a "challenge"....lol....b/c he is a nice guy.

You see, I've told some things about him that did not protray him in the best light.....but then there are things about me that he could do the same way. Sure he has hurt me, but then....as it has been pointed out to me.....I have hurt him...a lot! I am trying to face some things about myself to see the truth the best I can and to see what I can do about it. I pray that it is not too late. I don't think it is. Even if we don't have an active sex life due to his health or whatever.....I won't us to be close and intimate in our hearts toward each other. BTW, I don't know if I ever answered the question that was asked of me about if he had ED or not. I really don't know, but he did ask the doctor if he could take Viagra and he can't due to the heart meds, etc. He had open heart surgery about seven years ago. I do know that the last few times we tried to have intercourse that he never got an erection. So, that is why I thought he backed off. He never talked about it whenever I brought it up. All he had to do was tell me that was it, but he never admitted it nor denied it. He just told me (after he found out about the OM) that he could still get an erection. I thought the timing was bad, but then timing has always been bad in our R.

Again, thanks to all of you. I want you to be honest and open with me about whatever you see in my attitude toward my health, sex, marriage,......whatever. It may hurt a little, but hey, I'm a big girl. If I dish it out, I need to be able to take whatever anyone wants to throw at me.

Seriously, Cemar, CAC, all of you......I am thinking about what you said....ok?

[SouthernGirl]

I don't know if you were frigid, Sandi. Reading your posts make me wince a little, and want to kick all the nostalgics that long for the good-ole-days where kids where sent into marriage with no idea of which side of the bed is up.

Sex isn't something that comes naturally to anyone. Everyone's awkward at first. There are, every year, cases of couples from "backwards" areas who think they can't concieve kids, only to find out that they didn't know they were supposed to have intercourse! So much for the sex "instinct". Sex is something you learn. Well, unless you're Mojo. ;-) You didn't know how and your husband didn't know how and neither of you were comfortable enough to just sit back and experiment. I don't think you ever had a chance to find out "what" you are. I think both of you were simply inexperienced.

Add the bad timing and the misunderstandings..... and let me tell you, another person can take something we say to heart that we never suspected. I had an experience like that with my dad. I made an offhand comment about something that gnawed at him for years, and I'd meant nothing by it. Yet he never told me.

The two of you need to communicate about all this. You'll probably be surpised at the things he carries resentment about, just like he probably knows little of what bothered you most. But since neither of you is a mind reader you'll never find out of you don't start talking.

[SouthernGirl]

Thank you. I need that today. It sounds like you know where I'm coming from or else you are/have been in a like situation. I have let the attitude of those I work with bother me a lot. The main one has Lupus and she hardly ever misses work. I don't know how she does it. She goes everywhere and is involved in everything. She doesn't think anything is "really" wrong with me and has influenced that upon the others. Then one of the workers had breast cancer. She never had one minute of pain. It was discovered in very early stages, thank God, and she is doing fine. But, naturally, people think that if a person has cancer then they suffer....but there has been two that I have know personally that never had pain! Amazing. So, I'm sure I appear to be a big whimp! I can't help it. I suffered for 30 years before with a terrible back....still suffer, but that was before my fibro was diagnosed. Anyway, I have delt with pain for about 38 years. It does seem like it is getting a lot harder to deal with as I get older. That is what has amazed me about the Fibro.....I know I used to deal with back pain that was more intense than this kind of pain. For some reason...and I think it goes back to what is happening in the brain....this is totally different.

But, wow, it sure helps to talk to somebody that seems to understand.

I play an MD on tv in my spare time. Happy to be of use, and just as happy to answer any questions you may have. Good luck.

[Dom R]

heh.. ED is just another "label". It's not a disease in and of itself. It's just a clinical label for "he cant keep it up"

and.. even if he only "cant keep it up" with you specifically... that's still
"erectile disfunction"

You BOTH got hurt a lot, in your initial sexual encounters.
You havent recovered from it... and neither has he.
I think it's fairly clear that his problems in that area, all stem from those first few nights you had together. Thank you for being open about sharing that difficult time. It really makes things plain to see.

It might help you to consider that in some ways, he is hurt even worse than you about it.
You probably feel like you arent being a "good wife". And, that you're missing out on an experience that you deserve.

He, on the other hand, probably feels like he isnt even a man.

To give voice to negative , but still ingrained, unspoken social views:

If a woman is "frigid"... you can still have sex with her, she can still get pregnant, she can still....
If a man "cant get it up"... he's not really a man. After all...a man without a penis... isnt a man.


he's carried a LOT of hurt, and wounded self-image... for 40 years.
He's kinda soldiered on how he could. But his plea for you to drive things, I think was an attempt to reclaim some of that self-image. That at least you might "want" him.

There's a whooole lot written on that side of things..
(causes and solutions for psychological ED) Thankfully, i havent had to deal with that myself, so havent read it. you might take a look at it yourself sometime.

However, my "gut instinct" tells me that, if you ever find yourself in a place where you want to pursue that again.. you could help him recover from it, by first showing a genuine interest from yourself for "that part" of him... and then continuing to be interested and loving, without ANY disappointment, when his little trouper is too scared to perform.

[PS: "interest" in the form of, "hi, I like to hold you and be nice to you", not "I want you to perform"!! ]


After a whole lot of that over time... you could succeed at making yourself a "safe place" for him, in that area.
Right now, I dont he feels safe there, because he's too ashamed and embarrassed about it.

Bah. I have a habit of overwhelming people with "too much, too soon". I hope that wasnt too much for you to absorb for today

Cheer up.. just try to file all this away... you dont have to "fix it all right now". Just know that all your marital problems... are solvable! There's not one issue you have, that hasnt been solved by countless couples over the years.
You can have a good marriage (and great sex, to boot )



[PS: your conversation with your mother pre-wedding... mentally, you may not have "felt" that way... but it would seem that internally, you did. it's really completely expected, given your family history. It would almost be surprising if you didnt!
People often end up behaving and reacting exactly like their parent-of-matching-gender, despite themselves.

But it doesnt have to stay that way...]

[sandi2]

DomR, You are right about few doctors in that catagory around here...for sure. I want to consider the health side and how it is going to effect that as well. I know it all works together with the emotions......especially with Fibromyalgia.....as I have talked about to Southern Girl. Anyway, I will do some checking......and some more thinking (lol), man, do I have alot of thinking and reading to catch up on this week.

You know, I think you are right on target about my WAW little voice inside me. If I can over-come that.....it will be great! I said before that I knew in my heart that the past eleven years....all I had to do was make a move toward him and he would melt. But....that WAW voice kept me from doing it. Man, is it powerful! I thought turning loose the OM was hard, but this will be much harder to do.

Oh, BTW, (for you Cemar), you were right about how I allowed the OM to feed my ego through my fantasy. Some of the girls beat you to that information on another forum. I have been able to see that and for a while I had trouble at night not fantasizing about him....but that has not happen in quite some time, so I hope I am past it. I hope that I can be one of the lucky ones that can get through the 3 month thing to get over OM. I don't know if that is true or not, but I'll let you know by the end of.......make that the middle of October. See? I've forgotten when I last made contact. Wow......it sure seems longer than that!

Ok, DomR.......about the weight. Gosh, I get tired of telling you how right you are all the time! (lol) Just kidding ya. I do need to try something to see if it effects my fibro or not like the sugar intake (beside loosing the pounds). I also read on one of the web sites about low fat and dairy.....that doesn't leave a lot, does it? Oh well, just like any other diet I've been on.

[sandi2]

Oh my gosh.....a star! Well, thanks sweetie, you sure have made me feel better today. You would make a good doctor in real life!

[sandi2]

Oh DomR, You beat all I've ever seen. How you can make me cry and laugh all in the same post.

If a woman is "frigid"... you can still have sex with her, she can still get pregnant, she can still....
If a man "cant get it up"... he's not really a man. After all...a man without a penis... isnt a man.

God, that just breaks my heart. Boys grow up hearing things like that! It is just as bad on them as it is the things girls hear growing up. Kind of makes me think of what Southern Girl said in her last post to me. So sad what people think.

Do you really think he may have problems that go back to when we were first married? Dear Lord! Do you know that he never talked to anyone about that? Oh....and the worst mistake I ever made....besides moving in the house with my MIL.....oh God, I can't believe I'm telling this......but here goes. My dad came to see me one day b/c he was very perceptive and just knew something wasn't right. This was just a few days after we had been married. Well, I was such a kid and thought if my daddy asked me that I was suppose to tell him. Yep! I did! Then....oh it gets better......my dad goes to my H to see if he wants to "talk" about it! Dear God, did that ever blow up in my face! My H wouldn't even go anywhere around my folks for weeks! Can you believe I did that? How stupid! But that was what I thought I should do at the time.

My H had just lost his dad in late September and we got married around the first of December. That was too much too soon. Of course, I know that now! But then, I just wanted to get married! We had been engaged when his dad got cancer and my H had taken care of him during his sickness. After he died, we thought we might as well go on and get married. After my own dad died and I was in so much grief.....then I realized how awful it must have been on my H. But, he never said a word....he never talked about his dad when he died. He had three brothers, but he never talked to them about our sex problems, as far as I know. I had hoped he would talk to my dad.....but boy, did I ruin any chance of that happening!

It might help you to consider that in some ways, he is hurt even worse than you about it.
You probably feel like you arent being a "good wife". And, that you're missing out on an experience that you deserve.

He, on the other hand, probably feels like he isnt even a man.

This hurts. Not b/c you said it, sweetie, but b/c I think you are right. Oh Lord help me. I have never had anyone to tell me these things before. Where have you been all these years?

he's carried a LOT of hurt, and wounded self-image... for 40 years.
He's kinda soldiered on how he could. But his plea for you to drive things, I think was an attempt to reclaim some of that self-image. That at least you might "want" him.

This is the part that made me really cry! It hurts so bad.

But why did he act like he did those times I tried to dress up sexy and he said those things to me? It doesn't make sense to me. Was it just bad timing....again? You see, that was kind of the same thing that happen to me.....if you can understand what I'm trying to say. Those experience did something to me. Maybe not to the degree as his.......maybe it can't even be compared. I'm just wondering about it, that's all. I don't understand the reaction I got from him....unless it was just bad timing on my part.

However, you have certainly made me understand why he would "wait" for me to lead the way. It makes sense to me now. Instead of just saying that he was afraid of being rejected. That was what I was so tired of hearing. So, why did he react the way he did when I told him I would have sex anytime he wanted to? Why did he back away and say that wasn't good enough that he wanted me to "want" him? Wasn't I trying to show him that I loved him? Or, was he saying that he "knew" in his heart that I was just making myself available without the feelings? What do I do about that? Is that what Michelle teaches? "Do it anyway?" Won't he be able to tell? Isn't that what I was offering to do back then?

Don't worry sweetie, the rest of the post left me laughing, so I'm ok. But, dear Lord, you gave me a wallop! But, don't take that the wrong way......I just wish to God I had had that a long time ago! I have so much to think about.....and to pray about.

Thank you so much. I was going to ask if you were a minister, doctor, counselor, or just a good ole guy.........but that's not fair to you. Anyway, many, many thanks for opening my eyes to my H's needs. I only wished he had known how to tell me himself about 41 years ago.