I was almost a WAW

[cemar2]

Sandi:

You have this fantasy with the OM going. He is feeding your LL, which you like. On top of this, the newness factor is happening, which means that your body is producing chemicals that cause FAKE desire for the OM. In 2-3 years, you would most likely revert back to being LD even with him. So don't get deceived by that.

I know of one man that even made the statement that was why he got married....was to have sex! Actually, that would be normal. Think about the whole dating process, the main objective of dating (even lifelong relationships) is to win the desire of the other person. We don't date to win the love of the other person, we date to win the DESIRE of the other person. If you know the person you are with does not desire you, then you STOP dating them. THIS DOES NOT CHANGE ONCE YOU MARRY. From a man' point of view, most everything we do is done to win the desire and respect of our wives. Desire is expressed by the women WANTING us, by sexual desire. So, in effect, men marry for sex. When we DON"T get this, eventually we must shut down, because it becomes unbearable to be the one and ONLY one in a realationship that actually desires. There are very few things in life that a women can do to HURT a man that is worse then being LD for him.

But back to the original question I had for you, How are YOU going to emtionally connect with him using HIS LL. All this TALKING stuff is for YOU, not for him. HE needs to focus on the talking stuff, what am I trying to get is for you to understand what YOUR focus needs to be, and it won't involve talking. And he really does not need to TELL you, cause I think that you already know what he needs.

[Dom R]

Hiya Sandi
I'm back from my weekend. And it was a pretty good one!
I got to spend half a day with my wife and children at an observatory, even though it was "her" weekend. And one or two other nice things, too. like, she agreed to go on our third "family weekend" trip, since we've been separated (back in june 2006)
No talk of anything like reconciliation. It was just nice time together.

I have some positive thoughts on what you wrote over the weekend...

Oh, I forgot....he was waiting on ME to start the dance. What the hell? Here I was about to climax for the first time in almost 30 years....and he stops [having sex any more]?

Sandi... you just had bad marital timing.
I unfortunately fell victim to that in my marriage, too.
The first half, my wife was trying to put everything in, but I was holding back. The second half, I was trying to put everything in, but she was holding back
If we ever manage to get in sync, though... I know that we can have a FANTASTIC marriage... and I'm pretty sure that you can, too!

When I was asked that back at some time when I first came on board here, I answered with the word...."passion". I wanted to feel passion!

I think what you're saying is, that you want to be "in love".
You said that you had "read" the marriage builders stuff...
Now how about actually following it?

If you've spent some time reading the accounts of people there, then you'll know how true it is, that you can build that kind of romatic feeling up, by plan and design. It's counter to what TV tells us every day.. but it's the real deal, not a fantasy, and most importantly, it can be yours.

I'm sorry that you feel so badly about him touching you. I guess that's a pretty strong indicator that I was right on the money about the WAW stuff but all is not lost.

Ok, he's lousy at the verbal stuff. So figure out the #2 and #3 things that are top for you, and coax him into giving them to you. (By ASKING for them, and telling him how much they mean to you. repeatedly!)

Then, if you choose to allow him to do them for you... then maybe after a few weeks, you will feel more friendly towards him.

(Hmmm.. I wonder if you are feeling anti-touch, to trick yourself into denying him "yourself", to basically punish him ?
I think there's a bit of punishment and resentment going on for you. If so.. an important question is, what will it take for you to forgive him?

most of my dreams had been shot to hell, and oh yeah....probably any chances of having experiences of what an exciting sex life would be.

you're talking yourself out of being happy again :P
I think that, just like most women, you want to feel passion, AND you want to feel connected to the person you are with. Which means that, if you choose to forgive your husband, and the two of you really work together, at taking care of each other, that you will have the best possible sex imaginable, if you get into a truely loving moment, with the man you have known for 30 years.

To quote some famous MC: "the best sex in the world, is married sex"

The "new fling" may have the max hormones pumping around the body, but married sex gets the emotional heart running as well

[Dom R]

PS: yeah, men usually marry for sex.
One of the reasons I got married, was so that we could live together, so that we could have more sex together

[RealJourney]

Hi Sandi, Hugs to you for not giving up and staying the course. Todya is a new day.

I feel the need to chime in about the anti-depressants. I've also tried severla of the AD's in the past ( for depression) and didn't have good results. The SSRI's made me feel " foggy" and lowered my libido and ability to O. Wellbutrin( the dopamine increaser) was good for my sex drive but didn't help the depression. So, for a long while, I stayed away from the med route.

Recently, having the stress of watching my father go through life threatening illness, made me re-think the antidepresants. I went on a low dose of Effexor and it has helped a lot without having any sexual side effects. Effexor and Cymbalta work on both norepinephrine and serotonin and are called SSNI's. Cymbalta's whole add campaign is that it helps with the physical pain of depression ( their slogan is " depression hurts"). IMO, you'd do yourself a favor looking into these meds.

Next topic...In your talks with OM, how often did he hear you in pain over the fibromyalgia? Did he see you on those days you just wanted to crawl under the covers and not be bothered by anyone? OM is a fantasy, without the regular " intrusions" of life. And as a fantasy, he will activate those chemicals in your body to produce the feeling of passion you so desperately want. As Cemar says, eventually this fix will dissipate...better to come up with a long term solution, one that doesn't cause emotional turmoil for others.

Have you started reading SSM? MWD is one of those writers you mentioned who steer you away from the " love is a feeling" way of thinking. In the beginning of my journey here, I kept repeating her words to myself that " love is a choice." It helped.

Keep at it, Sandi. Maybe you don't have the formal education of some, but you are certainly articulate and intelligent.

[sandi2]

Dear Cac4, DIY, and Cemar2,....oh and Southern Girl too,

I want to thank you for your comments. First of all, I feel badly about the statements I made regarding ED. I was off base there and should not have said what I did out of my resentful attitude. Secondly, I do truly appreciate the fact that you are educating me about how the LD W is the reflection of her lack of desire for her H and how that directly affects him. I have read a lot of books over the years, but apparently I have not been reading the right ones. I wish somewhere along the way that information would have been spelled out for me and maybe, just maybe, it would have helped me while I was younger. Perhaps psychology would have helped me...I don't really know. I have never known what my problem was...I just knew I had a "problem" and felt to blame for the lack of sex in the M. Being accused of being frigid does not "help" the woman. I don't know if it is truly a choice of if my problem would have a different label. Since we were not financially able for me to seek out professional help, in the early years, it went undiagnosed. Back then, in small rural towns like mine, women just discussed such things with their family doctors.....which never accomplished anything except being put on the birth control pill. That only took care of the fear of pregnancy, it didn't take care of the LD.

I feel there is a lot of misunderstanding between my H and me about that lack of information we have received down through the years, plus our misconception of how the other one is "suppose" to feel or act. I knew I loved my H when I married him. On our wedding night, being the first time for both of us, we were nervous, but everything went ok....except for one minor thing....I did not feel any "repsonse" to his touch or to the sex act itself. Now, that is not to say that it was distastful to me or that I did not like it....but I was "surprised" to discover that I did not have any feelings responding to his touch. The next morning, I was anxious to repeat the act when we woke up and I guess he was also b/c we immediately began to ML. He, however, was not able to perform. Well, I knew immediately that he was embarrased, so I just said something about let's get some coffee and let it go at that. We sat around all day without him touching me in a sexual way. We watched TV! Does that sound normal to you? Well, I didn't really know what "normal" was b/c to tell you the truth, I didn't know much about men at all. Thinking back to it now, I'm sure he was devastated that he was not able to perform and was afraid to risk it again. When we went to bed that night...he could not get an erection again.....nor the next night....nor the next. This went on for .....well, I can't really remember now, but I just remember him telling me to touch his penis to make him hard.....and being the "blushing" bride that I was...I needed instructions. That did the job, however, and then I got pregnant! So, that shows you how little we had been told before we were married. I look back and wonder why on earth my mother did not talk to me about preventing pregnancy!

We really got off to a bad start, and was living under a strain being in the (small) house with his mother. We were never alone the first six months of marriage...which is not good. Our fist year was not good and we certainly were not ready for a baby when we had been married barely over nine months. I have already told about the painful intercourse during my pregnancy, but I did not tell how I felt immediately after the birth of our child. I was ready for sex! I guess the right hormones kicked in for me...but I don't remember it lasting too long b/c other problems became larger than the bedroom issues at that time. However, it carried over into the bedroom. It was over 40 years ago, so some of the time slots gets a little foggy, however, I just remember it always came down to sexual issues with my H. He thought that if the sex was more often then the other problems we had would disappear. I tried to leave him for about a week and was guilt-ridden into going back to him (long story). At that time, I could not bare for him to touch me. I think a lot of resentment was already into place and that particular move made it even more intense. If only we had went to C then, it may have saved years of pain for both of us. Nobody even suggested it to us. We were just kids (18 & 22 when we married). You think somebody in our families would have said something about it. I didn't even read a book then. I don't think they wrote about the subject content as readily back then as they do now. At least, I personally didn't see any books, but then I don't remember "looking" for anything. I never remember anything being talked about on the TV then. These days, it is very common to watch a talk show with all of these issues discussed....but not back then. They would have been kicked off the air. Young people would be shocked to know how censored the subject matter was back then....even certain words could not be said. Television has come a long ways in 40 years and has been a big help to so many people by giving them the proper information. I regret not having it then.

By telling you all this (and I'm not just talking to you three), it is in no way to justify myself, merely trying to explain to any younger people, especially, how things were at the time I got married. We were not given information openly like it is today. It was more "secretly" talked about. Never, ever, would a school classroom teach on sex. I remember when that became a big issue when the first suggestion about sex education came up. Of course, I was already married then, but I was in favor of it.

After being told, or implied that I was frigid over many years.....it did cause resentment. I think it is hard for me to "get over it" b/c I wanted to have a good sexual relationship with my H. If it is a "choice"....then I must not be frigid. The one C that I went to talk to about this...told me that I certainly was not frigid and that it was all my H's fault. Well, I didn't go back to her. That would be the easy way out....to say it is all his fault. But, I can't do that and I never have believed that it was all his fault. However, I cannot say that I believe it is all my fault either. Yes, there has always been a communication problem between us.....about everything. He won't talk and I may misunderstand him when he does try to say something....I don't really know. I gave up trying to talk to him a few years ago. B/c it always reverted back to sex and we never seem to be able to work it out. I think the way he saw me and the way I saw him were probably both incorrect views.

After giving up and emotions seeming to be dead for a long period of time....it is very difficult to revive. He told me that he gave up a lot b/c of my health and that I always seem to feel so bad.....in other words, he just lost "hope". God, that makes me feel awful. That is why they say that a disease for one member becomes a family's disease.....it effects everyone. I know that was true with our daughter who got Type I Diabetes at 15. That placed even more strain on us b/c she went into rebellion like you wouldn't believe! For years, we went through hell on earth. Then our son became physically disabled (won't go into all of that), but I truly believe that is why I have Fibromyalgia. It is not a proven fact....just my thinking....but I believe it was caused from all the continued stress I went through for so many years. Everyone that I know personally that has Fibro.....has gone through years and years of stress without any let up. Some people get heart disease, some high blood pressure....we all are affected some way. My H had open heart surgery a few months after his mother died and I think it was b/c of all the pressure he was under from what she required of him, plus everything else that was going on at the time. Bless him, this has been hell for him......I know that. I have never denied that for a minute. Neither of us have handled our own personal problems very well. We have advised other couples how to handle theirs, but we don't seem to know how or what to do about our own.

So, my heart goes out to him.....and Cemar, I want to give him his LL....I really do. I want this body of mine to cooperate, also. I don't want to pretend that I desire him sexually. Should I do that in order to give him his LL? I am asking that earnestly, not being sarcastic, should I do that? I mean, I have been told to give him the instructions as to what I want him to "say" to me b/c words are my LL.....so should I pretend to desire him in order to give him his LL?

To Southern Girl, thanks for your concern also. I have been thinking a lot about talking to my doctor about AD. Although, I said I wouldn't take them again, I get so depressed and especially when the Fibro flares. I think for one reason, I feel like I let so many people down that depend on me.....Church, work, family, etc. That makes the pain and the depression a lot worse. I can't seem to deal. I feel like the doctors just have to experiment with me and that is scary. But, we have to do what we have to do. I taped a little note to myself on my mirror this morning (after I wasn't able to go into work) that said, "Rise to the Challenge". I was watching a old rerun of "Harm's Way" and that was said about a female officer that went through some bad stuff and they were wondering if she would be able to withstand the effect on her personally and do her job. That was Harm's answer, "She is an officer with people depending on her leadership and she will rise to the challenge". I hope I can.

[SouthernGirl]

To Southern Girl, thanks for your concern also. I have been thinking a lot about talking to my doctor about AD. Although, I said I wouldn't take them again [..]

Why not? Have you had side effects when you were on them before? If so, do you remember which ones you took, and what were the side effects? Or do you just not like taking pills? Just curious what your reasons are!

[Dom R]

Hey Sandi...

I'm going to say something that is going to be difficult for you to hear.
But, hopefully by now, you know that I'm only saying it because I care about you and your marriage.

Maybe you'll want to go scroll up and read my more cheerful post first, that you missed this morning, while you were posting your long one. Posting overlap again



My intention in mentioning this, is in the hope that you will recognize what I am saying is true. because if you do, then maybe you can choose to let go of some resentment which is getting in your way.

Seems like you have a lot of resentment about being labelled "frigid". A whoole lot.

Thing is, though:

It was accurate. You were "frigid", by definition: You lacked desire for sex.
Another definition, in websters dictionary is, "b of a female : unable to achieve orgasm during sexual intercourse ".
That's accurate, too.


The term "frigid" has lots of implications, and sometimes implied potential blame. For my part, I dont think it was "your fault". But neither do I think it was a deliberate fault of your husbands, either.
As you have observed, you were both young, and completely non-informed.


Think about this: are you the most angry at your husband and others, for using the term? for "labelling" you? Or are you the most angry and frustrated at yourself, for "being that way"?
Are you displacing anger and frustration at yourself, onto those people who called out your issue?


"frigid" is just a term. A definition, of a person's mental state.
But it's not a disease. You're not "stuck with it".
And whether or not someone uses the term about you, doesnt make it true or false.
If you recognize that it is true, though... then you can USE it, to help you get to someplace else.

Something to think about, reguarding the use of labels:

If you were feeling absolutely horrible about yourself for months, and someone told you, "You're depressed. You are suffering from Depression".
Are you going to hate and resent that person, for "labelling" you with Depression?
Or are you going to look at what they said, examine yourself to see if it is true, and then go research anything you can find on "Depression", to see what you can do about it?

If anything.. the person actually did you a favor. The person using the term "Depression", didnt MAKE you depressed. It just gave a name for how you were feeling.
Humans NEED labels, to be able to organize things. In that fictitious situation, if that person never used the label of "Depression".. you may never know to go look up information about it.
Without a label, you would be lost for what to do about it.

Hope this is something helpful for you to think about.

[GonnaGoBlind]

Cemar,

Perhaps if you started acting like you were dating your wife again, rather than being comfortably married, things might change for the better?

[sandi2]

(I tried to post this around noon today, but something happen to the computer and wouldn't send it through, so I did a little cutting and pasting. Will try again.....here goes)

Real Journey and DomR.....

Oh God, thank you so much for that encouragement. As you may has already read, I am home today. The Fibro has been really bad the past few days. Yes, depression hurts....badly. I think I may have already said this, but my pain level increases when I put the stress on myself, actually, by getting upset on my days that I can't work or go to church or family functions due to my flares. I am trying a technique on myself....lol. But, I have really just began to notice how the pain is worse when I get myself upset at feeling like I have failed in my responsibilities. I notice that when I am so bad....like this morning....and I have to call into work, I am nearly in tears. After making the decision to stay home (now this doesn't happen every time, mind you) the pain or tension in my body lets up a bit. It doesn't go away, but I notice it does let up a little bit. So, I think I am putting a lot on myself. So, I am trying to consciously calm myself down and just relax and tell myself that I can't help being sick. I don't know, it may cause me to "give in" too much, but I keep fighting it so much that I am putting a lot of pressure on myself. By "fighting"...I mean, I think I fighting it the wrong way. Does that make sense?

Regarding the Cymbalta, a lady at our church mentioned to me that the doctor put her on that when she was in so much pain and it did the job. She is one that never just comes up to a person to tell them something that personal, so it got my attention. However, any of that stuff worries my mom cause she saw how it did me in the past. But, I am going to talk to my doctor to see what he things about it. I really don't know it it was all the meds or the "other" stuff I was going through. I know I had more than one doctor to tell me that I was way over medicated and then they would hand me a prescription for two more meds! Go figure.

Okay, DomR, your weekend sounded really great! That makes my day, sweetie. It is always good medicine to hear great news. Like you said, even though no talk of the R went on, it was a good family time. And like you are always telling me....baby steps (lol). I know from the WAS's POV that if you were to always bring up the subject of the R, it would cause her to back completely away from you, so you are doing the right thing and in the right timing. "Timing" is everything! Man oh man, do I believe that! I think timing has been one of our worst enemies in our M. Just like you said, when he is "on"...I'm "off" and the other way around. I agree with you, if we can ever get "on" at the same time, I think we can have a great M.

I do want to clear any misunderstanding I may have left with any of you about the OM. I have cut him out of my life. Just wanted you to know that. I do, thanks to all of you, see it for what is was......now. I was in such a "fog" until I could not see it and did not want to see it. I wanted it! But, I wanted it to be like my fantasy. He, the OM, never saw me at my worst. One time he saw me when I didn't look so great and that was the morning after everything had hit the fan. Otherwise, I always made sure I had my make-up on and hair fixed, etc. I had that smile on my face and even when I wasn't feeling that great, I looked great....for him. That embarrasses me to admit it, now, but it is the truth.

While speaking so truthfully, I have begin to gain back some weight.....my H mentioned it last night. He has noticed that I've been eating a lot of sweets and thinks it contributes to my pain level. But, it makes me sad to know that I lost weight and looked good for the OM.....why can't I seem to do that for my H? As soon as I made the decision to stay with my H and cut the other man out of my life......it was as though my body gave way or maybe gave up. I can't get my brain to work the same. I try to tell myself to work just as hard for my H as I did for the OM....but it won't work. I guess, with the OM.....there was a challenge that isn't here with my H. As "imLin" told me......I don't have to win my H, b/c I already have him, whereas with the OM.....I was trying to win him and therefore had to look great and act great, etc. Makes very good sense to me, but I just wish it wasn't that way. I know I have mentioned this before, but my mother was never that way. She looked so great for my dad.....always. He treasured her and it showed through the way she took care of herself. Now, he has beem dead for 19 years, but she still looks beautiful and has never even thought of anyone else. I wish to God I had inherited that......whatever it is. I don't know if it is pride, self-respect.....I don't know what to call it. But, I know it is noon and I'm sitting here in my nightgown, and my H has just come home for lunch. What do you call that? Taking him for granted. That's what you call it. But what do you call whatever it is that my mother still has? Whatever it was.....her mother had it also, even after her H died. I admire both of them.

[sandi2]

Hi Southern Girl,

Since I'm not at work today and trying to just stay off my legs, I guess we can play "tag" on the computer (lol)

Seriously, thanks so much for your concern. A lot of my emotional distress over the fibro comes from people (that uneducated about the disease) who has given me a bad time over it....mostly the ones I work with, therefore, I dread calling in sick. I was on about three-four different AD at once for a short period of time.....and of course with the pain med and sleep meds, everything combined....it was too much to function. But the first AD the doctor placed me on when I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia was Prozac. I knew nothing about it and stayed on it for years. The depression got worse. I went to the doctor in tears and said I needed help badly. He put me on something that I thought was a miracle. For about one week I felt as though I had be reborn. I honestly felt as though I was seeing the world for the first time in years. Then it wore off in about two weeks, and I was back to square one again. He tried something else, and something else, and I just wasn't getting anywhere. Finally, I went to a different doctor that I heard worked with a lot of patients with Fibro. She kept me on what I was on plus added Welbutrin. I could not tell it helped. All in all, the AD just made me feel......nothing. Like I was dead. I think it contributed to the lack of sex desire a lot! I mean....I'm talking....nothing at all!

I did talk to my H at lunch time and he thinks that I should get back on the AD. So, if that is the way he feels, then I will probably do it. However, it is going to be about three weeks before I can get in to see the doctor. Now, he said this after I told him the others made me not have any sex desire......so he knows I'm bad depressed. I guess he figured it didn't make much difference for him.....where the sex is concerned, and maybe living with me would be easier if I wasn't so depressed.