Hi Sandi, Thank you for the kind words. I started posting here in May '04 as InherJourney, then more recently as NewJourney, and now, of course, it's RJ. It's been a long and strange trip, but the Reader's Digest version is that H and I decided, after being in a miserable marriage for many years, to work on being happy together. It sounds simple in theory...just an attitude change...but getting two people to agree to be on board, fully, at the same time...well, let's just say that H and I nearly killed each other in the process!
A change in attitude is really the whole key, and it begins with you. You have to resolve your ambivalence...figure out what you really want and go for it. After you go through MWD's SSM book, I suggest next in line to read, if you haven't done so already, is Passionate Marriage by Schnarch.
Once again, I admire the strength it took to detangle from OM and sort things through in reality. You have given up OZ, but you may discover that you have the power within you to make your marriage feel like you are truly home.
xo, Journey---who always wanted a pair of ruby slippers
Sandi, as for the not supporting stuff, I will say this. The same was said to me by my husband. One of his reasons for cheating and leaving the marriage.
You may have be floored by your husband's comment but for him that is how he perceived it to be. Maybe you need to get into the specifics with him. Ask him what he wants and needs to feel supported.
Hi GGB, RJ and Trip.....good to hear from you all again.
I am having another bad day...physically. Pain level very high today. I did get my SSM book in the mail this morning and am anxious to start reading it as soon as I can focus. I came in to the computer to change chairs for a while and to check any new posts.
Last night and this morning's pain was bad enough that it was bringing tears. My H was sweet and wanted to do something for me....however there really isn't anything he can do. He kissed me on the shoulder and laid his head over on my arm and it was sweet, but my "old" feeling of wanting to reject his touch surfaced and I was mad at myself for that. God, I just don't understand myself. Why do I not appreciate it when he does want to touch me? If and when he did ignore me when I was suffering so badly....it hurt my feelings...but then when he tries to show me how badly he feels that I am hurting....my skin nearlly crawls at his touch. God knows I don't "want" to feel like that. That is why I am here seeking help. That is why I thought I was adnormal for so many years.
The majority of the posts I have read have been from the people that love and despartly need the touch of the spouse. They crave the physcial nearness of the mate. I have laid in bed and cried from the lonliness of being without that very thing in my life. However, I know in my heart that all I have to do is make one move toward him....just one move....and he will melt. Why can't I do that? Why do I not want that? I am so discouraged at this that I want to give up. I know a lot of it is my pain and the discouragement that all this together produces it....but I am so down today b/c of the old familiar feelings of .....I guess "repell" is what I'm thinking. He doesn't deserve that from a woman. He should have somebody that can respond with warmth. That is why I don't know if I can "force" myself to do any "assignments" that doesn't have the feelings beforehand.
Maybe when I read the book I will feel better. But, if you have anything to offer....I would appreciate it. In the meantime, I have got to go move around a little while and then try lying down againg. I'll check back later.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Good morning all. I just need to journal right now, so be patient with me. Hopefully, I'll come back and read this when I need it....if nobody else does or not.
I am feeling depressed....which is common for me when I have a bad "flair" with the Fibromyalgia. The pain level is still up today and I don't know if I will be able to make it to church or not. It is only 5:30 a.m., so maybe by then....just have to see.
I have been up for a long time already and have been going back over some posts. Isn't it sad here in the SSM? It is just sad that one has LD and the other has HD or one "seems" to love more than the other. But, nobody wants to "settle" for what they have at the present. With that in mind, it brings me to what I am thinking this morning.
Now, before anyone throws up their hands and starts to scream....I'm not going to contact the OM....ok? But while reading the posts and thinking about a statement one made about the W feeling sexually "dried up" made me think of myself before I met the OM. If you have followed any of my posts you have probably seen where I mentioned several times that I thought something was "wrong" with me b/c I didn't seem to be like women are these days....the "Girls Gone Wild" type. If females are REALLY that way...I was born in the wrong time frame for sure! Maybe it all goes back to how we were raised or how society looked at sex at the time we were growing up....I don't know. As I have said before, I think the movies, etc., have played a large part in how people have changed their viewpoints and certainly standards.
Anyway....about what I was going to say about me, the OM, sex, my M, etc. The desire to have "feelings" is strong. To feel nothing is so sad. That was the state that I had been in for a very long time. As you probably have read, I have never had a fulfilled sexual experience with my H. I don't actually remember being very sexually excited before or during any times that we had sex....except the last couple of times that we ML. I was actually beginning to enjoy it and even thought at one point that for the first time...ever....I might even climax. Wouldn't that be wonderful (I thought) and then our M would take on a whole new meaning! We would be like newlyweds. Ha! Was I ever in for a surprise! That was the last time my H touched me intimately.....eleven years ago. Anyway, I met the OM on line and he talked my "love language" and I discovered that I was not "dead" after all. The hardest thing I have had to do is to decide to stay with my H--and to do this knowing that I may never feel "alive" on the inside again. It was almost like saying good-bye to the possiblity of any sex life ever happening for me. Now, some of you will immediately think...."Well, with that attitude, you will never have one, for sure!"....b/c of the having to stay positive attitude thing, etc. Some people that are very young would probably think, "My God, you are 60 years old.....give it up, woman!" (lol) Yeah, it would be easier, I guess, if I could do that. Maybe, that is what I should do....just give it up and try to get back into whatever kind of R I had before the OM came on the scene.
Let me think here about that. Just what was that R anyway? Dead.......comes to mind pretty fast. Lonely.....yep, that too. And of course....no physical contact at all, but that is what led to the "dead" and "lonely". You know, if it had not effected my other areas of life....maybe I could go on and accept it and just give up on any dreams of ever having the "contentment" that I crave in a R. I'm trying to look deep inside myself this morning and see what it is that I really want in a M. What if my H was never able to have sex again? Would I turn my back and leave him? No, I doubt seriously that I would ever do anything close to that.
Let me stop and tell you all something that I have known that has happen to couples...that I know personally. In their young marriage, the H was HD and the W was LD and a lot of problems came from that. In fact, some of those H's even threaten to leave the W b/c of the lack of satisfaction that he received from the sexual R. I know of one man that even made the statement that was why he got married....was to have sex! (Remember, that was several decades ago.) Then, in each case, after the couples got older and the H was not able to perform due to ED (or some other physical problem) the W would just be so patient & loving, and never threaten to leave him, nor complained about not being satisfied... and you know what everyone of those wives said? "I understand". Don't you find that a little ironic? Isn't life strange how the tables can turn on us? What if the W felt like reacting to the H and treating him the way he had made her feel in their early years of the M when "she" was the one that was having the sexual problems? But, as I made the statement once before, society seems to have compassion toward the man with ED, etc. But gives the female hell for being frigid. There goes that resentment again. I think that is why I DID feel resentment in just one of many areas of my life. I felt like at long last I was going to be "normal" and my H and me was going to have a "normal" sex life.....and then he just stopped without a word. I thought, ok, so he must have ED. But when he found out about OM....he informed me that he didn't, so what was the past eleven years all about? Oh, I forgot....he was waiting on ME to start the dance. What the hell? Here I was about to climax for the first time in almost 30 years....and he stops? I thought I was showing patience and understanding by not putting pressure on him to have sex....LIKE HE HAD ALWAYS DONE TO ME! I don't know if I can stand the irony of all of this! It took loosing me to OM before he told me he could still have sex? I don't get it...I just don't get it. I tried for decades to get this man to just "talk" to me, but he wouldn't. Then when he nearly looses me to the OM.....I am the one that feels shame and I am the "bad guy" to my kids.
Okay, back to what do I want from my MR? When I was asked that back at some time when I first came on board here, I answered with the word...."passion". I wanted to feel passion! At the time, I'll admit that I was primarly thinking in sexual terms. However, I would like to just feel 'passion' towards life in genreal. I watch my six year old granddaughter. Oh, what a joy she is to observe. That is the way she sees life....through eyes of passion. Everything is so exciting to her....regardless of what it is or how simple is may seem to us. She just loves life! I look at her and I want her to always feel that way toward her life. I would give up mine in a second if it would be some kind of insurance that she could have that kind of life here on earth. But, I know it doesn't work that way.
When I look back over my life, I know I was very sheltered. I know I was loved and protected from the ungliness of the world. I was never abused. For that, I will forever be grateful. I watch movies of people that lived very "simple" lives and think how much more grateful I should be to have what I have today. However, there are areas of my life that are sad and "unfair"....and I will spare you the details of that. Everyone has those areas. I don't think anyone can escape them if they get to live very long on earth.
Most of us are the product of our decisions. Not everything, of course, is the result of the decisions WE made....but the most of our lives are. At least, that is what I believe. So, that brings me back to where I was when I asked what do I want from my MR? That is what I need to think about this week. But as I've been told....and I have even told some people this myself....our R will mostly be whatever we make it. I also believe a R is a two-way street. So, it helps when both parties are working toward the same goals. But, when you feel that there is only one of you working....then what? Do you just give up? Or, do you make the most of what you have?
Isn't that the way it is in everything about life? I am angry and resentful and I confess that before God. I don't want to be that way...it is poison. I feel sad for time lost. I think that is what I resent the most....lost time. Perhaps, that is what kind of threw me into a MLC at a late date.....I woke up to realize that here I was about to be 60 years old and had lost my youth, beauty, a good part of health, most of my life was behind me instead of in front of me, most of my dreams had been shot to hell, and oh yeah....probably any chances of having experiences of what an exciting sex life would be. Oh, I know, you think I'm having one of those pity parties. Well, maybe I am. Just trying to talk it out here. That's what we have to do to start to heal, isn't it? That is what I want to do.....I want to heal. I want to be happy........that is what all of us here on this board wants...to be happy. Most of us, well, I guess ALL of us want to be happy with our spouse or we wouldn't be here.
As usual, my post today has been a long one. It has taken me about an hour and a half to write it. It was to myself and anyone that wants to read it. I pray to God that each of us can find our way to contentment and making the most of what we have in life.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
...But, as I made the statement once before, society seems to have compassion toward the man with ED, etc. But gives the female hell for being frigid. There goes that resentment again.
Well, you should drop that resentment; its entirely unfounded. I've seen you mention it a couple of times now, and I feel compelled to pipe in...
If there's any "compassion" at all toward those with ED, its becuase its source is almost always phisical, whilst being "frigid" is a choice. Perhaps the existstance of medications such as viagra and its derivatives contributes to this inaccurate assesment that "society" has tried to "do something" for these poor men...well, that, too, is unfounded, because the effects of these medications were nothing but a serendipitous (yet completely un-intended) side-effect of an attempt to treat a different problem. Kind of like Jed Clampet striking oil when he was only looking for supper. ...and then one day, he was shootin' for some food and up from the ground came a bublin' crude.... No one at "drug-co" was out on a crusade to rid the world of this terrible scourge against men. They simply bumped into it, and decided (wisely) to sell their "mistake". Lots of drugs get discovered that way, actually. But anyway, while this is a big boon to many, it could also be considered a bust for those of us who can't take this kind of medication, because if anyone ever was going to try and find another way to solve this problem, they ain't likely to keep trying, now. But I digress...
Now, I don't mean to imply in any way, shape, or form that there aren't perfectly legitimate, physical causes for female sexual dysfunction, including "inhibited sexual desire"...but that isn't being "frigid". Being "frigid", in my mind, is the conscious, intentional witholding of affection toward a spouse or "significant other"...stubbornly clinging to their assertion that their level of desire is correct, and appropriate, and that their partner's objections are unfounded, illegitimate, and that they're basically "just being a pig and should go take a cold shower." completely dismissive of their partner's feelings.
A frigid person doesn't want to have sex; A person w/ ED typically becomes aware of the problem because they're TRYING to have sex; They WANT to have sex, and can't!!! do you see how not only are these 2 conditions not alike...they're complete OPPOSITES??!!!
perhaps you were "frigid"...or perhaps you were mislabellled by yourself or someone else. Doesn't matter, at this point. I think what is most difficult for women to understand is the depth of emotional pain that results from ED. There really isn't anything in the female world that can compare. (and I'm not just making this up; Lil, a wise, 60-something woman on this board has said that its "impossible" for women to understand). One thing thats for sure, though, is that HD women most certainly DO understand the pain of rejection from their LD hubbies. And that can be "key" irt ED...Its bad enough all by itself, goodness knows. but your REACTION to it...well...that could cause a whole bunch of hurt, the likes of which you can't even imagine. So think about that. And actually, I'm not completely clear on whether or not your H actually HAD ed, or not...But one thing that is crystal-clear is that he absolutely had a whole bunch of pain...a pain that hurt SO much, he would give up having sex, --permanently--to avoid repeating it. Think about the source of that. Sounds to me like your sitch is the result of much mis-communication and misunderstanding, which lead to mis-directed anger and resentment, and that is the knot in which you currently find yourself bound.
Sandi2 Some people that are very young would probably think, "My God, you are 60 years old.....give it up, woman!" (lol) Yeah, it would be easier, I guess, if I could do that. Maybe, that is what I should do....just give it up and try to get back into whatever kind of R I had before the OM came on the scene.
I get a similar line from BB about the sex part but she doesn’t want to give up the hair, back, and foot rubs.
The give it up is not realistic. It is almost like believing everyone’s retirement age should be 65. Well I know people that are basket cases at 40/45 yr of age. I had an uncle that planted trees, gardened, shoveled snow, and had the nicest yard for several blocks. All work that he did when he was 90.
Sandi, you, BB and even I have to put the thought “your NN (theoretical number/age) years old, give it up” out of your and my head. Sex is what you make of it and how you feel about it. If someone else thinks sex stops at a certain age, let him or her live like that when they are that age. I bet what they think now isn’t going to be what they think when they are 60 or NN.
I saw too many Ann Landers articles that said, women don’t like sex that much and just want to be held/listened to. Some women want an /Ann Landers article life. Some men want that too. The problem for me, was BB thought that is what she wanted 10 years after we were M, and I bought into the idea men were over sexed and needed to back off being as sexual with their W.
I bought into the idea it I was being pest, that there was something wrong with my sex drive, that my sex drive caused some of our M problems. One alternative was to work more. Sorry, that backfired on me.
If there's any "compassion" at all toward those with ED, its because its source is almost always physical, whilst being "frigid" is a choice.
Now, I don't mean to imply in any way, shape, or form that there aren't perfectly legitimate, physical causes for female sexual dysfunction, including "inhibited sexual desire"... I have to agree with most of what CAC posted. His first frigid comment sent me into Woh dude, back off and his second frigid explanation made me thing, OK, that is much better
I still don’t like the term frigid so I would not have used it. I don’t think frigid is a deliberate choice
Sandi, I will say, there was a lack of understanding in your M. I see guys thinking gals are so different from guys and guys thinking gals are mostly alike, so if he acts a certain way with one gal and is successful, that way of acting should work with the next gal. What works the first time should work the 50th. time.
Cac4 "...stubbornly clinging to their assertion that their level of desire is correct, and appropriate, and that their partner's objections are unfounded, illegitimate, and that they're basically "just being a pig and should go take a cold shower." completely dismissive of their partner's feelings. That happen to you too? No way!
Cac4, I couldn’t have said it better. If you write this phase again modify that their level of desire is correct to that their level of desire and timing is correct,
Sandi, I am not being critical of anything you say. I have great empathy for you and your H. I do listen to the content of your posts to better understand my M when a part seems to apply to my M to BB. She doesn’t have Fibromyalgia, but has a few similar symptoms. I know life sucks at times. She switched BP meds last week and is having some problems (a common occurrence) with the new med or something else. Switching is hard on her and me in a roundabout way.
one thing that is crystal-clear is that he absolutely had a whole bunch of pain...a pain that hurt SO much, he would give up having sex, --permanently--to avoid repeating it. I can relate to that Cac4. I have been in and out of that state many times.
It isn’t just a male thing. It just as easily can be a female state of mind.
My best advice for today is hug till you are satisfied.
Sandi - if I may just jump in here for a minute - I know nothing about the history of your illness and what you may have tried, so forgive me if this is complete a$$vice, but have you ever looked into tricyclic antidepressants? For whatever reason, those "older" antidepressants like amitriptyline (not the SSRIS) seem to be able to modulate certain chronic pain syndromes by acting on serotonine, norepinephrine and acetylcholine pathways in the brain.
Some of the newer drugs that act on the same pathways (like duloxetine and venlafaxine) might also help and have less side effects.
There's some belief that fibromyalgia may be caused by reduced serotonine levels, and that the antidepressants lift them. It's interesting that the doses needed to improve fibromyalgia are much smaller than the ones used to treat depression.
It's hard to be upbeat about anything when in chronic pain, let alone be "objective" about one's sitch. If it's something that you haven't tried yet, I recommend taking it up with your doctor, soon. Good luck.
Thank you Southern Girl for your concern for me. It seems that I have tried that med some years back. I have been on so many different kinds until it is beginning to get hard to remember all of them. I have been thinking a lot today about talking to the doctor about anti-depression meds again. I said I would never get back on them again....but I may have to. There is something about the Fibromyalgia that works on the nervous system and even when the pain itself has lowered....it is like I just want to cry and can't deal with the world. It all sounds so .....ugh! Those are the times that I really feel the need for help with depression.
Perhaps I shouldn't have posted this morning when I was feeling so down....it certainly didn't help anyone for me to do that, but I thought that was what we were suppose to do as a way of self-help therapy (the idea of journaling). Anyway, I am going to give a lot of thought to the response I got. I realize that there are many on the board that have a much higher degree of education than I and are much more equipped to choose the appropriate terminology and I appologize if I failed to use the correct medical words in expressing my hurt. It apparently offended some and that was not my intention at all. It has certainly given me much to think about.
Isn't it sad what we human beings do to the ones we love when we are so hurt? In our pain, we lash out and can't see how deeply we cut the very one that means the most to us. Deep hurt comes out though us in all types of "packages".....but when it is opened up..it is still "pain".
Well, this morning I felt so hopeless and was about ready to just give up. Tonight, after reading some of your posts (and some from way back)....I am more determined in my heart to try to show my H my love for him. I don't know why that seems difficult for me--and b/c it is...that concerns me a lot. However, if love is a decision....as some writers claim it is...then I must decide to do that.
I pray that this week will be one of hope and encouragement for us all.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi2 Perhaps I shouldn't have posted this morning when I was feeling so down....it certainly didn't help anyone for me to do that, Who said it harmed anyone? I didn't see any harm in your post.
I thought that was what we were supposed to do as a way of self-help therapy (the idea of journaling). You are, feel free to journal. Most of us do it.
I realize that there are many on the board that have a much higher degree of education than I and are much more equipped to choose the appropriate terminology and I apologize if I failed to use the correct medical words in expressing my hurt. Well, first off, you write well. I think you express your feelings well.
Isn't it sad what we human beings do to the ones we love when we are so hurt? In our pain, we lash out and can't see how deeply we cut the very one that means the most to us. Someone like me with a few similar traits or situations as your H has, I can be a little sensitive. But I post so you might see what your H might be thinking or might want to say, but he doesn't say it.
Some of the things you post, I play with the ideas and see if it applies to BB.
....I am more determined in my heart to try to show my H my love for him. WTG ^5. Think, small steps are good.
However, if love is a decision.... Sometimes it is only a decision, with no payback in the near future.
Lots of people here do things not because they feel like it, but because it is the right thing to do.
There is something about the Fibromyalgia that works on the nervous system and even when the pain itself has lowered....it is like I just want to cry and can't deal with the world.
Yes, that's it, exactly. The two seem to work through similar mechanisms in the brain, which isn't all that surprising. There are only a few transmitters that express pretty much all of our human functions and emotions. Some are bound to overlap.
If you've had problems with antidepressants before, skip the amitriptylin. Try one of the newer mixed reuptake inhibitors like venlafaxine (brand name Effexor). It has a better side effect profile.
I apologize for the medical-ese. If you don't understand something, ask. It has nothing to do with your level of education or ability to write. This is a really complex science that even the experts are only beginning to understand.
I think it's extremely important that you get back on meds, and hopefully experience less pain, better sleep, and, resulting from that, much more mental engery.
