I was almost a WAW

[sandi2]

Sandi:

I don't care what I think of you. I don't care what I think about your H. I don't care what I think about your sitch. I don't care what your town thinks about you, your H, or your sitch.

What I care, very much about, is what YOU think of it. Because... that is all that matters.

Corri

Ok, well, I don't know that I understand where you are coming from or what it is you are really saying to me.....but I will read your stitch and perhaps that will help me to understand you a little better.

[OG_Lou]

Sandi, I see lots of conflicting messages in some of your post. Probably different goals or feelings at different times in your M.

What is your 6-month goal?

You say you want an intimate R with your H but don’t feel those feelings, but feel like he is your brother. You say your H doesn’t make moves on you and we all know that is difficult to make someone make a move on you.

You told StarvinMarvin to accept the sex his W was offering. Would your H do the same thing, accept what you offered him today?

Several of the men here with LDW's have times when they gave up trying, for at least several months. Any advice to them? I have thought about giving up sex and some other things but know doing so will erode the M some more.

BTW, I see you have been all over the place drive wise and trying things. ^5 for the efforts.

Lou

[sandi2]

Hi Lou,

Well, sorry if I sound conflicting in my messages. I don't want to do that. My advice to starvinmarvin to accept what his wife was offering was b/c I was in those same shoes before (of his W's). I was trying my best to give what I could to make (I thought) my husband happy. He wanted more sex and that was what I was trying to do. But, that was not good enough for him (which I found out)....he wanted me to (I guess) be like starvinmarvin and have the "feelings" like him....but you see, I couldn't b/c the feelings he wanted me to have were not in me like they were in him. But, I was TRYING AS BEST AS I COULD GIVE. That is what I was trying to say. The woman is trying her best....but he is saying it is not good enough. I have been there and I think that if she gets this message from him at this time in their M....while she is trying her best to "please" him....she will give up trying at all.

Remember, I have been married almost 42 years, so when I relate back to an experience or phase in my M.....it could have been many years ago and I was somewhat different in the way I am now. But, I did go through that same situation as his W....only my H did not say he would leave if he didn't get better/more sex. He certainly expressed his unhappiness at not receiving enough sex and every single conversation we ever had went back t that issue.....if only we had more sex, then everything would be just lovely. So, that was what I was trying to do. Then, like starvinmarvin....it suddenly wasn't good enough. What was I suppose to think? What is she suppose to think? I can tell you, but it wouldn't be nice.

The other message I have given out is that when the HD H waits on his LD W to make the first move and he decides that he won't have sex until she does make the first moves.....will end up in the boat that I'm in now. The feelings that one should feel toward their sexual partner shuts down. It has been over a decade! I know I keep saying that....but I don't think some people on here get that! It has been eleven years and is there any wonder I feel like my H is just a "relative" now? That is how we have lived together.....like a brother-sister. Can you try to picture what that is like? I have not had a real kiss in eleven years! I don't even know if I remember how to kiss or not!

Here may be where my conflicting message lies (I'm not sure but I'm trying to help here)......you see if my H had continued to initiate the sex.....I would have continued to ML with him. That is not to say that my level of sexual drive would have changed....I don't know. I do know it was on the verge of getting to a very good level when he stopped suddenly and that was very damaging to the MR. In fact, it kind of blew my mind and I thought "how ironic", but since he couldn't perform....I thought it was that reason...so I didn't push the matter. He contined to "blame" me (just like he had for all the other years) even though I didn't realize it at the time b/c I had began to rather enjoy sex and looked forward to it. I even thought I was doing the "dance" that has been discussed in other messages. However I discovered that he told my mother that if we ever has sex again that I would have to be the one to initiate it. BYW, I just found that out a few weeks ago.....after eleven years! So, he was still blaming me even though I had began to enjoy the sex and thought there was some very positive adventure for us on the horizon. Guess I was wrong about that. Still can't get him to talk about that and why he suddenly stopped ML (if it was not b/c he was impotent). You want to know what I really thought? I thought, truly, that he had gotten into such a habit of blaming me for our sexual problems that he naturally fell back on that as a "crutch" instead of admitting he was the one that had a problem.

Ok, enough about that. You asked about a 6 month plan or goal. Oh sweetie......I am just trying to take a day at a time. I have tried to make goals for a week but they haven't been very successful so far. I'm not giving up though.

I don't want anyone to see this as an "excuse" and I'm sure some people will.....but...oh well.... Here is the thing. A person must have a certain amount of energy to have goals and make action plans and work on having desires, etc. Perhaps you don't agree.....but then perhaps you (and I don't mean just you...but eveyone that may read this) have not had the chronic fatigue and chronic pain and it is all you can do to get out of bed and get through the work day....come home and collaspe. I can tell you that it is hell. I also know it could be a lot worse.....I could have cancer, etc., etc., ....that is not where I'm going with this. I am talking about energy. It takes energy to work at a relationship. I have not had that energy.....nor encouragement (until I came here on this board) to deal with the depression and sadness of my situation enough to muster up extra energy that I need to do all of that. Believe me when I say that I can remember having that energy and "working" at the R. It makes a difference. I am not saying this to get sympathy but hopefully understanding. I gather from a couple of responses I received that I was greatly misunderstood about all of that.

So, back to your question about a 6 month plan or goal. No, I haven't made one. I just know that I plan to still be with my H. I made that decision when I chose between him and the OM. You see, that was just a few short weeks ago. They say it takes three months to get over an EA and it hasn't even been that long for me yet. I am still going through the withdrawals from the EA.

Be patient with me. Even if I sound like I'm giving conflicting messages....I don't mean to. Ask questions when I don't make a lot of sense and I will try to clear it up.

Thanks for being a friend. I appreciate it.


Now, talk about me initiating things......whenever there is anyone in the house that says "good-night".....I am the one that goes to him to say it. If anyone in the house gives a little peck on the lips (if you want to consider that a kiss, which I don't)....it is me that does that. I have tried to see if he will make the first move toward me....just in that small area of our R.....but he doesn't. If there is a "hug".....I go to him for the hugs. So, I feel like I have made the first moves.....in these areas......for all these years.

Would my H accept what I offered now after all these years. Yes, I think he would. I think surely he has seen it is either that or nothing. That is what I've tried to tell some of the men here. It doesn't pay off to say that you will either have great sex or no sex at all. It doesn't pay off to say that the W will either initiate the sex or the H isn't going to make the first move at all. Don't stop the sex completely. That is what I'm saying. Work with her and work through it together. Don't do like we have done......don't get to this place. That is the message I have tried to get out there to you all.

I got pissed off at one of the guys b/c he was talking about the hyocrisy he felt about his W......b/c his LD wife was having sex with him (after he threatened to leave the M) but now he wasn't satisfied with her b/c he didn't think she really meant it in her heart. He didn't think she was doing it b/c she REALLY LOVED HIM! To me....she is PROVING her love b/c she is "all over him" as he said and having sex with him. She doesn't want to loose him and she is trying her best to hold on to him and IS proving her love to him. Now, he apparently feels turned-off b/c she is doing this.....or it's not enough....or something. It all goes back to men and women being different and not understanding each other and not talking it out. The difference can be frustrating enough, but when one is HD and one is LD.....oh man....just expect trouble.

Then.....I feel like I get "blasted"......(not from you sweetie) for expressing my own frustrations in my MR. When I try to straighten that out.....I get blasted again. Anyway, there are problems in communicating with some (for me) and I have to work at that harder or give up.....just like in a MR....(lol).

I have been asked, by more than one, to give my story....but then it is like .....well, I must come across the wrong way or something....I don't know. But, I will keep trying as long as you all will keep trying "with" me. BYW, what was that last part of your post? I didn't understand.

[sandi2]

Lou,

I don't know what happened on my last post. I had tried to cut & paste some places and I think it ended up getting all out of order. Sorry. I would try to re-do it, but I have got to get to work or I'll be late. Gee, I hope you can make some sense of it all.

[GoodGuy]

I'm glad we talk as well, I need you!
I don't feel I help you as much as you help me, so I'll try harder to give you a man's perspective.

You mentioned you asked your H to back off and give you space. Have you tried to tell him to come closer in subtle ways to begin with? There is not a person on the planet that you know better than this man you have spent 41 years with, don't let another month of your life go by without telling him how much he means to you, tell him you love him, take blame, don't accuse, start right away. You are in the drivers seat, like you said, you might not have the feelings right now, but as soon as you break down that first wall, as soon as you make love again, you may just feel like a lot of time was wasted and you may just feel eventually like you are on a honeymoon again.
Like the workaholic on his death bed doesn't say, "Gee I wish I would have worked a few more hours at the office"!

I am happy to report that I am GAL. I am acting "As If", I'm being nice, cordial, I don't feel like I am myself around her though, laughing, upbeat, smiling etc, I seem to be kind of boring around her? If I do start dating anyone, it won't take long for it to get back to her, she hangs out with 2 of my (our) neighbors. Thats one of the things that bugs me, she'll come hang out for an evening with one of my neighbors (right next door too), then come back and hang around with another neighbor (one that used to be my friends too, no longer). So if they see me with a woman, or my son does, it will go back to her pronto. I guess if I am willing to start dating, then she should find out. Do you think I should tell her first? But if it isn't someone I am willing to continue dating, that might not be a good idea?

I hope I have the time today to leave the office and go ask out the bank teller. I guess if I can sit here and post on this website, I can get my butt out of this chair and drive on over there. It's been a looooong time since I asked a woman out on a date, but i've got game, I'll just do it. I can't tell you to "just do it" and then I turn into a frightened little school girl, now can I?

I'll let you know what happens Sandi.

[Dom R]

hiya Sandi,

Wow.. you're really opening up in here. that's great

REALLY interesting that you found out about that thing from your mother, about your husband saying you'd have to initiate.
Good thing is, that all falls in line with what i was guessing/suggesting

Question for ya, on something you wrote in another thread:

I told him [a long time ago, when we were still having sex] that I would ML anytime he wanted to. I foolishly thought that would please him. It didn't! Instead, he sulled up and acted mad....of course he never talked about any issues we had, so I didn't "know"....I had to "guess".

Why do you think he reacted that way?
Did he feel like you werent "into it" or something?
Do you think you gave him that impression sometimes when you were together?


All that, was just a side question, though.
I'm still waiting on the results of when you're going to ask your husband to hold you for a while

I guess i should ask, since it's bad to make assumptions:
At this point... would you LIKE to be held by him for a while?

[OG_Lou]

Sandi2
he wanted me to (I guess) be like starvinmarvin and have the "feelings" like him....but you see, I couldn't b/c the feelings he wanted me to have were not in me like they were in him.
True, two different spouses will see/feel things differently. There ideally should be some overlap/things in common.

I was TRYING AS BEST AS I COULD GIVE. That is what I was trying to say. The woman is trying her best....but he is saying it is not good enough.
I will put myself in your H and marvin’s shoes, which I am sort of anyway.

It helps to understand the W is doing the best she can and not take her LD extremely personal. I did that since 1981 and up to a few years ago. Some times I can forge through my perception of my W/BB’s lack of desire and sometimes her lack of desire comes across as me being a pest, an un caring H, a selfish sexaholic. The last feeling is difficult to overcome. The first feeling (pest) isn’t too much fun either. It takes a lot of testestosterone to get past the feelings that I am imposing one of my desires on her and disregarding her feelings or needs.

when I relate back to an experience or phase in my M.....it could have been many years ago and I was somewhat different in the way I am now.
In a communications class in college, one lesson was “no matter what you say to counter something hurtful you said to someone in the past, the feelings it caused at the time can not be un done. They can be coated over so a better shade/feeling is coupled with the original feeling.

Some say forget the past. In reality you can’t forget the past but like cold pizza, you can warm it up and make it more palatable.

He certainly expressed his unhappiness at not receiving enough sex and every single conversation we ever had went back t that issue.....if only we had more sex.
More sex was the outer layer of the issue/onion. More sex back then would have made that layer of the onion less of a problem. What he and many people don’t realize there are other layers of the relationship onion. You also had your layers of your own onion to work with your H may not have been aware of.

Then, like starvinmarvin....it suddenly wasn't good enough. What was I suppose to think? What is she suppose to think? I can tell you, but it wouldn't be nice.
That is where I am too sometimes. For BB sex is something she would rather give up. Asks me why I want sex because all normal guys my age have ED????? I know better. At the time she said that, it really hurt. Now I know her opinion was all bunk and I can view myself as having an ability that some women would value highly.

What were you supposed to think?? I don’t know Sandi2. I know it takes emotional energy to keep trying to get something I want from someone that doesn’t get much out of the encounter. For me that is difficult mental position/frustrating feeling for me. I suppose your H may or may not have felt something similar.

What is the W supposed to feel/think after agreeing to sex and the H backs off. Hurt, resentment, abandonment, frustrated I suppose.

Here is what I experienced and how it went down for me. I with draw because it is almost impossible to get what I want w/o doing something extra. I give 80% and get 20%. BB sees the 20% I didn’t give her.

BTW, sometimes BB tells me she will have sex with me any time I want. IRL, “anytime I want to” has conditions as to time, outside influences, If “A” “B” “C” “D” and some other things have to be in place/the right time, and “E” “F” and “G” cant be in the picture for sex to happen to satisfy her comfort level.

Last night it was day 3 of me doing the friendly H things, spending most of the day with her, going to the pet store with her, back rubs, hair teases, just cuddling in bed for 2 days prior, touching during the day, etc so I had a plan to do the deed.

Then about 8PM it got Smokey (forest fires 500 miles away), BB took an allergy med, got sleepy, fell asleep on my lap and I could tell it wasn’t a good time for her to have sex. Yes I stayed up till 2AM to not thin about the disappointment/frustrations I felt.


So, tell me the not too nice thoughts you had. I won’t personalize them. They are your thoughts, about your situation. This forum is an exchange medium. I say How I feel/think/act, you can do the same.

The other message I have given out is that when the HD H waits on his LD W to make the first move and he decides that he won't have sex until she does make the first moves.....will end up in the boat that I'm in now.
Yes, I agree. I saw the no sex turn into A’s. I don’t want that to happen so I do the deed and relate non-sexual affection/attention acts even if I have reservations.

In the middle of our last sexual encounter, BB gave me an item on her list of bad H traits she sees in me. I felt like quitting in the middle of the encounter but said something to let her know what she was saying was not appropriate at that monument. I carried on in the middle of our 20 minuets of physical sexual and emotional touching because I need it and our R needed it. I thought about quitting, but I didn’t. And some women think a guy wants sex no matter how they disrespect him??? Sheesh> It is tough to keep it up and forge through some of my resentment/guilt/ frustrating feelings. Sex is more than getting off for most guys. It is about connecting and having some adult playtime. It is also about experiencing my own chemical fix. I am a junkie in some ways. A good “O” really is a fine thing to experience IMHO.

The feelings that one should feel toward their sexual partner shuts down. It has been over a decade! I know I keep saying that....but I don't think some people on here get that! It has been eleven years and is there any wonder I feel like my H is just a "relative" now? That is how we have lived together.....like a brother-sister. Can you try to picture what that is like?
I get the message loud and clear.

On a personal not it is difficult to remain emotionally detached when I read post like yours or anyone’s that have gone more than several months w/o sex happening. Sometimes I want the spouse’s e-mail so I can help them get over the sexual dead end they are stuck in. I know I really can’t do that much IRL so I sit and read in a wishing mode.

)......you see if my H had continued to initiate the sex.....I would have continued to ML with him.
BB has said about the same thing but I don’t see or feel any ML in her actions. It is giving sex to get her back and hair rubbed and so I don’t detach more from the R. BB said she doesn’t have any SD and it died in 1981.

If I waited for BB to initiate it might happen 2X a year. Last time was a couple of years ago because I was almost totally detached. The event I remember well. She came to my bed (her choice to sleep alone) and wanted me to hold her (outward actions of hers) but I knew she was initiating so I had sex with her. It was mostly me doing and her accepting, but Hay, t was an offer and I wasn’t going to hurt her feelings anymore than they were hurt.

That is not to say that my level of sexual drive would have changed....
I don’t expect B SD to change, maybe her willingness a little.

. I do know it was on the verge of getting to a very good level when he stopped suddenly and that was very damaging to the MR.
((((Sandi2)))) I am sorry to hear that it didn’t work out so you might have both been happier. Damage and improvements usually happen slowly.

I suspect you changing and him accepting the changes for the betterment of the M would have had its ups and downs. One thing or one time, is usually followed by up and down movements. Just saying I don’t see too many “Magic bullets” solving most of a couples R problems.

but since he couldn't perform....I thought it was that reason...so I didn't push the matter.
It could have been depression/frustration affecting his ability to perform. Some days I am rock hard even if BB talks her "men are pigs language." Other days some understanding and a connecting touch from BB are required to get into the mood. I suspect that happens to your H too.

He continued to "blame" me (just like he had for all the other years) even though I didn't realize it at the time b/c I had began to rather enjoy sex and looked forward to it.
Yes, people blame what they can see or think is the reason something happened. My personal opinion is many times we never see or comprehend why something happens or doesn’t happen past the 50th. percentile. One person at church prays for rain, someone else prays for sunshine. It was partly cloudy with intermittent showers. Both say it was like that due to prayer; they got half of what they wanted. My opinion is it happened, why put a cause and effect into the picture. My point is things happen in R’s but maybe we will never know why. We will see thing that influence R’s one way or the other, but “A” caused “B” is sometimes elusive.

However I discovered that he told my mother that if we ever have sex again that I would have to be the one to initiate it. BYW
So tell him you found out, but not from which person and say you are ready to have some fun “WITH HIM”, for the good of the M. Tough to do, I know, BTDT. Might work, might not work.

. I have tried to make goals for a week but they haven't been very successful so far.
That is normal, not being successful at reaching a goal. Success is doing the baby steps even it the results are not perfect or even that good sometimes.

A person must have a certain amount of energy to have goals and make action plans and work on having desires, etc. Perhaps you don't agree.....but then perhaps you
Ding, ding, and ding. The lady is normal and wins the prize. BTW, I run out of that type of energy too. That is behind some of my thoughts of giving up sex, at least for a while.

. It takes energy to work at a relationship. I have not had that energy.....nor encouragement (until I came here on this board) to deal with the depression and sadness of my situation enough to muster up extra energy that I need to do all of that.
Hopefully the board will give you some motivational ideas. You need to turn those ideas into actions.

My screen ID is DIY=Do it yourself, which relates to me coming here, reading books, and going to counseling, but eventually I have to do it myself. No one can do it for me.

About your fibromyalgia, there was a book recommended by Screen name KML real name=Ellie, who is a Dr. I will keep looking for the book title in one of her posts. It might be helpful.

. They say it takes three months to get over an EA and it hasn't even been that long for me yet. I am still going through the withdrawals from the EA.
Three months for some people, yes, but from what I have seen on some forums, I think it takes longer.

Be patient with me. Even if I sound like I'm giving conflicting messages....I don't mean to. Ask questions when I don't make a lot of sense and I will try to clear it up.
Sometimes inserting dates and events leading to those feelings help the flow of a person’s story a bit more logical. We all know there is an ebb and flow to feelings/actions.

If anyone in the house gives a little peck on the lips…...it is me that does that. I have tried to see if he will make the first move toward me....just in that small area of our R.....but he doesn't. If there is a "hug".....I go to him for the hugs. So, I feel like I have made the first moves.....in these areas......for all these years.
Well, change the gender and that sounds like here.

It doesn't pay off to say that the W will either initiate the sex or the H isn't going to make the first move at all. Don't stop the sex completely. That is what I'm saying. Work with her and work through it together.
I agree, the down side has large pitfalls.

Work with her??? I think “I” am. I don’t think the pay off is that great but better than the consequences if I don’t. I would like to increase the pay off for both of us. I don’t see that happening much.

Don't do like we have done......don't get to this place. That is the message I have tried to get out there to you all.
We have seen a situation like that unfold with chocolate eyes thread. Good experience to avoid.

He didn't think she was doing it b/c she REALLY LOVED HIM! To me....she is PROVING her love b/c she is "all over him" as he said and having sex with him. She doesn't want to loose him and she is trying her best to hold on to him and IS proving her love to him.
Hum????? Love him as in really likes him or loves him because she doesn’t want to be alone???? That is two different reasons.

I like to feel liked and needed. I don’t really get turned on by a W not liking me that much but thinks she has to do enough to keep me from leaving. I don’t feel like hanging around because I am something she needs to survive but really isn't happy with me as a person. I don’t like feeling second or fourth best, but better than a lesser person/man/something she would rather be doing. I have been 6th (after 3 dogs and 2 cats) on my W list of things she likes. I hope that makes sense.

Would my H accept what I offered now after all these years? Yes, I think he would. I think surely he has seen it is either that or nothing.
Well, do something small. Something he wants or is comfortable with. A hug and then a longer hug. Ask him to hold you tighter or say, “what is your favorite way to hug me?”

Come up behind him and put your arms around him a couple of times gradually touching him more or in more sensual places. Pull out his shirt and touch some skin, eventually touch his nipples. Works for me, it might work on him.

Then.....I feel like I get "blasted"......(not from you sweetie) for expressing my own frustrations in my MR. When I try to straighten that out.....I get blasted again. Anyway, there are problems in communicating with some (for me) and I have to work at that harder or give up.....just like in a MR....(lol).

I have been asked, by more than one, to give my story....but then it is like .....well, I must come across the wrong way or something....
Everyone gets blasted Sandi2. It is one way to get you to see how you miss some good points your H has and to avoid saying “Oh you poor thing! You’re your H is an a$$ and deserves to be shot. It is to get you to do what you can.

Some people come here and basically ask, “how can I fix my spouse? Well you can’t fix anyone but your self. You can do some things that make some decisions for your spouse easier or more difficult, that is about it.

To me a good friend tells me my zipper is down when it is down. That is what we do here because it is more in line with solving a problem.

If anyone thinks the posters are hard on anyone, just go back 3 years and read Cemar’s threads. He has had more good advice offered to him than anyone on the forum. He still comes here with the same problems. People still try to help him. Some gave up on him.

This is the most helpful, well-read forum I have ever encountered. If someone swings a stick at you, it is to help you see what you can do to improve your situation.

General anger at someone? I saw it a few times but I saw the people patch things up and some bonds eventually strengthened and solid R develop.

It is Smokey again today and that means BB will load up on allergy pills, be tired, and dried out. I am still thinking about doing the naked dance with her.

:Lou with a sun flower: Yes-no, yes-no, yes-no,…………………… Really what happens thought the day and much later influences my actions.

Kml latest post http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1186777

Lou

[cemar2]

sandi2:

I can relate to how your husband feels. What I think has been happening for many years now in your marriage is that he has shut down, he has made himself vulnerable to you for many years, and to stop the hurt, he has had to STOP persuing you. For many years he loved you AND DESIRED you. For most of that time, you at best, only LOVED him. SHort of adultery, NOTHING hurts a man as much as this, NOTHING. He probably spent many years trying to win back your DESIRE, and it never came. So to stop the PAIN of bashing his head against that rock, he stopped pursuing you. In some books, they even recommend that the HD spouse see that part of their marriage as DEAD, and to mourn its loss, and to STOP the hurt, to go on with life without it. A marriage is only good if the differences in sexual deisre are not great. SO he is trying to BURY his desire to match yours, but this means he must stop making himself vulnerable to you, which leads minimizing the relationship.

So, to fis the marriage, all you have to do is ask this question and come up with a definite answer:

What can your husband do to meet your needs that will cause you to have a strong sexual desire for him? No maybes here, only what will definitely work.

[OG_Lou]

Cemar said
He probably spent many years trying to win back your DESIRE, and it never came. So to stop the PAIN of bashing his head against that rock, he stopped pursuing you. In some books, they even recommend that the HD spouse see that part of their marriage as DEAD, and to mourn its loss, and to STOP the hurt, to go on with life without it.
OK Cemar, I agree with you. I also see this is what got Choc's M in trouble.

What can your husband do to meet your needs that will cause you to have a strong sexual desire for him?
That is a fair question Sandi2, the answers are not easy for your H and if he would do those things, will it be enough for you to desire him sexually. This is an ideal situation.

Maybe you two need to work on a less ideal plane. I am. An improvement is an improvement/better than what was. I wish almost perfection was a reality. I don’t think it will happen perfectly. Know any body where it would be almost perfection? I am listening.

Lou

[Dom R]

I think part of sandi's problem, is that she doesnt know the answer. Or maybe she does (words of appreciation,etc), but doesnt know how to get her husband to go along with it.