Asking for help...not an easy thing for me

[inmyplace]

nic,

I can dig your approach. Definitely tell him what is or is not appropriate. If that doesn't make the impression, then get the sledgehammer out. The male of our species many times still thinks no means yes.

IMP

[CMNM]

Oh my goodness! I am on multiple pages! I don't think that has ever happened to me before. Thank you to all who have offered up some help/comfort/guidance here.

Part of me wants to just believe that yes, he does want this divorce and that is that. On those days I do o.k. Then, I start to think about my family and how I owe it all to them to not give up to the bitter end. My children deserve more than this. (As do all the children caught in these messes.)

My H seems to always want to talk or throw something new out there after each "bomb" or bad thing that happens. For example, earlier in the summer he did tell me that he went and spoke to a lawyer. He finally admitted to filling out the paperwork, but said that he asked that it be held until he was ready. I was in the middle of a summer job that had a few weeks to go, and I said "do what you have to do, but please just let me get thru these few weeks and then I will have a few weeks off before my real job starts again." He agreed. (P.S. He never really refers to a D or filing....it is always, "I talked to the lawyer")

Well, after a bit of thought I told him that I was being unfair to the kids. By holding things off, this would be hitting them right as 2 were leaving for college and the other getting ready to go back to school. I said that I needed to be stronger for then and to do what was right. H agreed and asked for me to come to the office to pick up the paperwork.

I told him that I would not be going anywhere to get any papers. I told him to do what he had to do- just warn me.

Well, the next day someone showed up and I was served. I left him a message basically saying "You promised me...and now I will never believe another thing that you say."

He called back in a panic and left me a message asking if I was served, and he kept saying that he didn't know it would happen that soon. He said he left a message with the lawyer, that was all. He didn't know that it has to be done within 24 hours. For wanting this D, he really has no idea about any of it. It really is odd.

Anyway, he called again later and we ended up talking for a couple of hours on the phone. It was one of those wonderful talks in which we both really seemed to be owning up to what went wrong and he even said many times "I need to do better." After talking for all that time, he said, "I need to see you. Can I come over?" Now, as you can see, communication is not our thing. There are a few times, like this, when it all comes together. I have learned to go with those as they occur.

I won't go into all of the boring details, but this is just an example of how things happen. That is why the comment about going camping wasn't so odd coming from him- it was just another example of him opening up a bit more after another "bad" thing that happened.

So, you see, I fear turning all of that off, because in those moments we really do become closer. But, on the other hand, it is driving me crazy!

Seriously, who in their right mind leaves the courthouse and calls their STBXW to tell her how hot she looks????

Thank you all for listening. I know that I am spinning, and I appreciate you taking the time to give thoughtful replies.

I know that the answer is just to say, "If you want this, act like you do." I will have to live with the results of that. And, the real key to that is, I will have to learn to really know in my heart and to believe that it is not my fault if the D then goes thru. The control freak in me seems to think that if I let go and it happens then I didn't do enough to prevent it.

Ugh. I hated admitting that!

Pam

[inmyplace]

Hi Pam.

Admitting your shortcomings is the first step. So good. You are on your way. You have been going through this stuff for 4 years. It is grating on you. Understandable. No matter what you decide, you just have to turn him off.

So you have made the first step. Now get off the merry-go-round. The biggest problem I see is that you want his ramblings to mean something and they do and they don't. But it is all about the effect on you.

IMP

[Rollercoasterider]

things like that tend to get my hopes up

...things like him breaking through a boundary to watch TV at the house...and other things, I bet.

Well, look at the boundaries. Everyone here is right, they are important. But think about each one.

Why did you say he had to watch TV somewhere else?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing...but I think your reason is important.

For me, I wanted Sweetheart to come over and hang out in our HOME...because it was his comfort zone and I wanted him to think of it as home.

Now that changed...a few times. Boundaries need to be firm, but flexible. I later began locking the bolt so he couldn't get in the house...he wasn't abusing that, it was more a message for him...not the usual reason. Sweetheart only showed up unexpectedly on a few occasions, we don't have kids yet, so I didn't have to deal with him barging in all the time like many do.

Could the TV watching be something that is okay to do at the house--since it's an activity with your son? If it were simply him coming over and hanging out for no reason, I'd look at it differently. But this is a prescheduled thing--right?

He said, "So I should do like you and tell you every time you hurt me?" I said, "of course you should!

I just wanted to quote this because it is excellent. This is making a safe place for him to reveal his feelings. He may not feel safe, but you are still doing your part.

Get a life and keep moving on "as if." Emotionally, though, I just can't continue that.

If you say you can't...

What about GAL can't you do? That is, what are you afraid GALing will yield? GALing doesn't mean you make a firm decision to never take him back. Hey, my Grandpa died in 1992; Grandma hasn't dated or wanted to and she has never stopped living. You can choose to GAL regardless of relationships--romantic or other. It doesn't mean yu go find someone else...or that you don't go find someone else. GAL is what you make it, not what the rest of us say it is.

As for 'as if' I've got mixerd feelings on that...'fake it till you make' isn't bad, but what happens when you get stuck faking it and don't seem to be making it? Find what is real and do that. Sweetheart called me on my faking it; he saw right through it. He needed to know that he meant something to me and thus I was hurt. He didn't want the guilt-burden, yet at the same time he needed reassurance that I valued him and thus losing him wasn't bringing me perky joy.

if he lets it go that far and blows that much money, I will not turn back when it is over

MAny of the quotes I pulled show this...so you are still willing to tunr back/ take him back now.

That is what you have said--in a waivering way--through out the initial post on this thread. So think about that; think about what that means for you.

I just wish he would leave me alone. I also wish that he wouldn't.

And there it is. That says it all. It doesn't answer anything, but it reveals your personal confusion.

I do know that I would not consider keeping this relationship going if I didn't think that I could be better in it.

This was interesting. I pulled with cheer leader thoughts, but this morning brought some different thoughts.

So let me first ask...do you mean you think that you can be better than you were before... that is be a better wife, you've changed, corrected some mistakes etc. OR that you thnk you can be better in the relationship than out of it? Perhaps both?

It is that latter meanging to which I will write.
There ar emany options in life...but for the need to be simple, you've got
A. Take him back (supposing he agrees someday)
B. Divorce

One of these options is not better than the other. A couple of years ago I posted that many will look back at the option they didn't choose and be relieved.

Wow, glad I didn't take him back. I'm so much better off...and look at him; I don't want that. I'm happy in myself now, I'm strong...possibly another relationship--a better relationship.

Wow, I am so glad I gave our marriage another chance. We are so much better than before. I think about what life would be like had I not take this chance and I don't like what I see. I'm so lucky.

In crisis, the other side is always greener. In good times, your side is greener. But if one chooses happiness; the grass is abundant wherever you are. A person can be strong, happy and at peace within or without their spouse...it's a choice, not either or.

And to be honest, things he asked you and said to you are definitely relationship talk type things. He seems ready to talk. Asking if he should tell you when you hurt him is definitely relationship stuff.

Interesting...very insightful.

I do so much better when detaching. My problem with that is that it is so hard to detach and still keep nice feelings about him. I tend to turn to the dark side when I detach.

I feel that there are different levels of detachment. Many become so detached that they no longer care. They no longer care about the marriage, the person, the realtionship...those I see at this level also tend have more likelihood to dehumanize--demonize their spouse. Too much detachment leads removes the LBSs compassion. Lissie is an ideal example of loving detachment...there are many other examples, but I use her to show that loving detachment can still be in place when the LBS doesn't want the MLCer back.

Detach from the emotional rollercoaster without detaching from the person.

How? I think this comes from an inner strength and stability in one's Self--personal Peace.

How do I detach from the guy who compliments me more now than he ever has?

Why do the compliments hinder detachment?

Do you need those compliments to boost your self-esteem?
If some guy on the street whistles at you, do you get your hopes up? Maybe you really are hot! And your husband simply knows this...he may be offering a genuine compliment with no hidden message or agenda.

Is there some reason you do not believe you are beautiful or worthy--thus a compliment must mean more?

I get the difficulty...nice Vs. Puffy
Cinder's MLCer Vs. Puffy

I know the challenges. Sweetheart has for the most part been a nice MLCer.
But then I've seen the other emotions. When I woldn't react, he spewed at others. I saw and see his Depression up close. So maybe I would have had an angry MLCer if I behaved differently...not saying other behaviour is incorrect...but we all have variables. Maybe Puffy would react to my methods with anger and spewing, maybe he's project elsewhere...I don't know.

What I do feel is that you need to look at yourself some more. Not what am I DOING wrong--which is waht you are asking now. But why do I think what I'm doing is wrong.

In the beginning we refer the LBS to the mirror...to find and accept their part. That's not what I'm doing here. You've done that. But what did you find? Did you find somethings you didn't like...that you may or may not have changed...but you still feel guilt over? Things that you did not want to face, so you buried them again?

Before you can consider either option A or B, you need to answer the question: What am I afraid of? And then...what do you do about those fears? How can you overcome those fears?

I do feel that self-worth is an issue--since you referenced compliments.

I've also listed a bunch of other fears later--I wrote this completely ourt-of order!

he seems to think that the ability is just there or it isn't.

I took this out of context because it fits in so may other contexts. Love should be easy and if it isn't easy, walk away. People think they, their spouses or their situations are special cases--different from all the rest. They could go to a prodigy counselor and be the only couple not helped AT ALL. Since this is clearly the case, why bother trying?

I really want to do better, and I just don't understand what I am doing wrong.

I don't get this...why do you think you are doing something wrong...cause you're not.

Is there a specific outcome from right and all other outcomes mean the doing was wrong? Or are there many outcomes for each...you are doing things and having certain results with wchich you are not satisfied...are the results within your control?

No...not when another person is involved. Your happiness is within your control.

Sure you can do something different...but it doesn't mean that what you have been doing is right or wrong...that's a judgment on your actions. There is no right or wrong.

I know what we are doing is not working, but I have no idea how to fix/change it.

Me neither...at least not how to fix...but changing means doing something different, right? What can you do that is different--180s? What boundaries are working for YOU...are there boundaries YOU don't want that you set-up?

You can change them you know...just find a good reason so he understands...otherwise it may seem a weakness. Or admit you made a mistake if that is the case.

The reason you have clarity for other situations and not yours is because yours is the only only one in which you have an emotional attachment. You are afraid that actually setting the boundaries will put the nail in the coffin.

So ask yourself this...what is it that you are afraid of...beyond the final coffin nail. Do you fear being alone, not being able to pay bills, your children's future relationships, your children's present and future well-being, without you he will not be saved (exit the tunnel or something else), that divorce taints you--and you are a failure, that no one will love you again, your children will blame you, you will not be able to get up in the morning without him there--because he is your life, that without him you will not be complete...?

That's not a rhetorical question. Think long and hard about it. And notice that most of the examples I gave weren't relationship focused problems.

Here's one answer

I start to think about my family and how I owe it all to them to not give up to the bitter end. My children deserve more than this.

I am one of those who actually believes in staying together for the kids...but that's my belief system, not yours. AND I believe in making a marriage a real marriage...choosing happiness within the marriage. What I see you doing is martyring yourself for your children.

Take a breath too, in between all of this

you are going to get hit with a million directions to go.

I pray about the advice I get when I am on my own, and then go with my gut.

Yup. Be careful that all the pieces of advice don't cause you to spin.

What about this...
Ask him if he really wants the divorce. If he says yes, reply with "Well I don't, so I've decided not to go along with it at this time. If you still want it in six months, we can talk about it then. But for now I'm sticking by you while you work things through."

Ya know, I actually like this!

My one of the million directions would be to ask rhetorically...let him know you do not want an answer, but that it is a question he needs to ask himself.

I'm not the fan of questions that IMP is. They have their place and may work. But I also think they can be dangerous...questions force an answer when the person doesn't want to give one. Since they don't want to give an answer...well, maybe they don't really know the answer. But since you asked...they'll give you one. And I agree with you that he will say that he wants the divorce.
Last year I asked Sweetheart a question: "What the he!! do you want?" And well, he answered it..."I told you, I want a divorce!"

Okay...I'm posting that tongue in cheek right now...he called me at 6am on my birthday--after not communicating for a few weeks. I knew what I was doing...but was in anger mode and reacted anyway...I forced an answer from him...and he didn't expect that question, so he had to react back.

to change the dance, so according to the DB principles put forth in the book, she has to do something different.

And I think this is one of the key things that everything distills down to.

What you do that is different needs to be toward what you want...and given your own confusion, you need to find a way to figure out waht it is you want.

If he says that yes, he does want the D, then starts coming around all nice and flirty, it's time to say, "H, we are getting divorced, we are not friends and this is not appropriate." He will get angry, and you hang up. Say it nicely, but firmly. He needs to understand that you have feelings, you are not just a toy for him to pick or put down when he wants.

This should make him realize that the D won't be everything he wants, but even if it doesn't, I think it will help YOU.

Excellent...I love this piece of advice. It includes boundaries, the question, the consequences...great.

For wanting this D, he really has no idea about any of it. It really is odd.

I've found that is normal. They think there will be this nice clean break...and then things will go on as they did before...yeah, in fantasy land.

I think the most important things is what you want.
But then, you want him to leave you alone...and you don't want him to leave you alone.

Soooo, before you can determine what you want, you need to adress your fears.

Once you have addressed your fears and determined what you want, you can then figure out what to do differently.

Except that what I just said sounds like it could take a long time...UGH. What can help you NOW deetermine what to do differently...WHILE you address your fears and figure out waht it is you want. I don;t have an answer...so input form the crowd...?

But something I want you to believe

No matter what you are beautiful, worthy, strong. No matter the outcome you can have a wonderful life.

HUGS,
RCR

[inmyplace]

To clarify:

RC said:

I'm not the fan of questions that IMP is. They have their place and may work. But I also think they can be dangerous.

Here is what I actually said in my first post:

Actually my first thought after reading your post was that you should look you H right in the eye and ask: "Do you want this divorce or not?" As my Cs said if you want to know something you have to ask. And to be honest, things he asked you and said to you are definitely relationship talk type things. He seems ready to talk. Asking if he should tell you when you hurt him is definitely relationship stuff.

The long and short of it is that your emotions are having difficulty dealing with this. You know it. You've told us. It isn't worth analyzing all of that. What you are feeling is understandable. But you have two choices. Put it all out there or detach your @$$ off. The first choice is obviously a high risk/high reward choice. You have to decide.

Asking questions isn't dangerous. Dangerous is walking into the middle of a busy highway. Asking questions is risky, i.e. the answer you receive is uncertain. You have to determine what you can risk. And to reiterate what my counselors said (the guys with the PhDs in psychology and ongoing practices) if you want to know what someone is thinking, you have to ask. They also said you might not get the answer you want. Hence the risk. Of course, setting boundaries can be risky too. At some point, you will have to talk...really talk. Seems like the time to do it is when you are asked. You were asked, CMNM.

You decide, CMNM. Don't overthink. KISS - Keep it simple, stupid. What do you want?

IMP

[CMNM]

RCR,
Wow. To think that you just took the time to respond in the way you did. Wow. Thank you.

I probably shouldn't have read this before bed. I should think it over, but that is just not my style. So, I will respond now and be very tired in the a.m.

I will take your reply one step at a time.

Why did you say he had to watch TV somewhere else?

I did this because I was trying to protect myself. You see, he doesn't only come here to watch t.v., or really even only to see the kids. Most of the time he gravitates towards me. He will always come up to my room to find me or end up in the living room with me. Now, this probably seems to be a "good thing," right? Well, I found that the more he did it, the more I couldn't understand just why we weren't together. It didn't seem as if he wanted to be away from me. When he made no move for us to come together, I felt I needed to set the boundary for my own sanity. To be perfectly honest, I try to make my decisions based on whether or not I can live with them no matter what happens later. For example, right now watching t.v. here is harmless, and it doesn't bother me too badly. BUT, what if he ends up in another relationship? Willl I still want him hanging out here? NO. Also, I guess that I am guilty of falling to peer (family) pressure here. I was tired of being yelled at by my family for allowing him free reign of the house. It seemed as if every other day I was being told "He chose to leave you all...Tell him to stick with it."

I am sure that none of that made a lot of sense, as it shouldn't, because I am majorly conflicted by the whole thing. I did make a decision today that I feel good about (but that will send my sister and other family members over the edge):

My youngest son told me today that he told his dad that he no longer wanted to go to his apartment. He said it was ridiculous that he had to split his time, and he no longer wanted to. He was hurt because he said my H said to "suck it up."

Well, part of me thinks that he (H) is getting what he deserves! I mean, he moved out of here. He is the one that doesn't want to work on the relationship, despite wishing that we had gone to counseling. So, if he, in a way, has lost his children, so be it. A consequence of his actions.

BUT, thank goodness, there is the part of me that wants the best for my children. A son needs his dad. So, I got on the phone and left this message for H:

"I just now found out about the conversation you had with S#3. I am sorry. I know that you don't like when I go back and forth on things because it confuses you, but I am going to do it because it is what is best for S. So, you are welcome here on Tues. nights to watch your show together. I know he would like that, and I want you two to have time together. So, hopefully I will see you then."

In the end, I just want to do what is right. I guess the only measurement I have for that particular boundary is the happiness of my son. So, gone is that one, for now.

I will, however, continue to ask that he knock on the door. I don't think this is unreasonable. I do not have access into his apartment AT ALL. I think I deserve my own private space, too. And, it took me a long time to be able to ask for that. He does make a lot more money than I do, so I felt as if I was taking his own house away from him. But, again, he did make this choice, and he was not kicked out of here. He walked willingly.

He said, "So I should do like you and tell you every time you hurt me?" I said, "of course you should!

Like IMP, you took this in a better way than it was said. It wasn't an opening for R talk. It was said angrily, as if to say, "It is not right to tell me every time I hurt you." I replied the way I did because I wanted him to see that I wasn't beating up on him, I was trying to communicate my wants/needs, and I really hoped for him to do the same.


Good questions on the GAL topic. O.K., I wrote without thinking. Obviously, I CAN GAL. And, I do. What I was trying to say was that when it does bring him back around, I don't know what to do with that. I find myself getting annoyed by the whole thing. I mean, if he expresses jealousy (which he is known to do), I just get more angry and disgusted at him. Why does he do that? Why not leave me alone if he wants out?

Quote:
I do know that I would not consider keeping this relationship going if I didn't think that I could be better in it.

I see how you read that 2 different ways. I meant it in the way you wanted to ARF over.
I know that he deserves better than what I gave for many years. I don't think I was a terrible wife, but I just didn't understand many things. Oh, and I was a crazy-maker. Yeah, I made lots of crazy so that he would give me the love and reassurances that I needed. And, in my own defense, it worked. You know how Dr. Phil always asks, "what's your pay-off?" Well, I had one. I would push and push and push at him for attention, and he would give it to me. I see now that I had to keep it up because deep down I knew I manipulated it, so it just got worse and worse because I was a bottomless pit. What I didn't know then that I know now is that he resented the hell out of all of that. He gave in to keep peace, but hated himself for being so "weak" as to allow himself to be manipulated.

So, when I say that I would be better in the relationship, I am saying that I now know that I have to be secure with myself, and that I can't get that from the outside. I know that things won't be the same with us (one of his fears, he has told me, is that our R will never change) because I am different. I sat down and prayed at the beginning of all of this. I asked God to restore this marriage, and I promised that I would stick with it thru thick and thin. I didn't want to see leaving or giving up as an option. You need to understand that my H's biggest fear is opening up to people. Anyone. And yes, that has included me. He has said that he is afraid that I will not like the "real" him. He has even said that he is willing to walk away from our relationship rather than to be completely himself. I have asked again and again, "What is the worst thing that can happen?" (if he were to open up and trust me with all that he has kept inside these many (22) years), and he says, "I would lose you."

Do you see the irony here? He is purposely losing me because he is afraid that if he shows his true self he will lose me!

I asked him the same Dr. Phil question that I referenced earlier about what his pay-off was for his behaviour. He said, "You can't hurt me."

Anyway, part of the promise I made to myself was that I would be in this for the long haul. Meaning, if he did open up and part of it scares/confuses/whatevers me, I would dig down deep and work through it WITH him. I needed to know that I wouldn't do what it is he fears, which is to hurt him.


You do make a good point about the compliments. I guess my problem and confusion lie in the fact that I have asked him repeatedly to stop saying those things to me because they do confuse me. I have told him flat out that it gives me hope for us. So, when he goes ahead and does it, despite what I have said, I begin to think he is trying to send a message. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. I just don't want to be worrying about that. However, I do see your point. I can control the amount of thought that I put into what he says. I will work on that. I know that one of his issues with me was that I couldn't accept a compliment.

Quote:
I really want to do better, and I just don't understand what I am doing wrong.

I don't get this...why do you think you are doing something wrong...cause you're not.

I said that because I am so frustrated over the way we cannot seem to communicate. I tend to just spill everything right out, and he needs to think things over for days, sometimes weeks! I say things that hurt him (not meaning to, honest), and he doesn't tell me that he is hurt. He may tell me much later, but by then he isn't as willing to "hear" my explanation of what I meant. I want to communicate better with him. I just don't know how. I never want to be the person who hurts him. I seem to keep doing it somehow, though. I am working on not spilling everything out, but that has morphed into a horrible habit of not saying anything for days and then saying everything all at once.

Now, I will go to bed and ponder the question of what I fear. I really need to think this one over. My first instinct is failure, but I am sure it goes deeper than that.

Whew.

Thank you again for your time.
You also, IMP.

Pam

[Rollercoasterider]

Asking questions isn't dangerous. Dangerous is walking into the middle of a busy highway. Asking questions is risky, i.e. the answer you receive is uncertain.

Thank you IMP for that distinction. I like it much better.

It doesn't make ma fan of questions...and I do ask.
I think the LBS needs to be strong enough to hear anything. I think CMNM is there.

But Jim Conway pointed out that if an ultimatum is given to an MLCer in Replay he will choose "One more time" [Replay]. Soemtimes ultimatums come in question form. A person may not be meaning to give an ultimatum, but the nutcase-MLCer may feel pressured regardless.

And eventually it needs to be time to ask...

There are times when I don't ask not because I don't feel I can handle the answer but Sweetheart is not ready to face answering...and my asking would pressure him--regardless of intentions.

And there comes a time when the MLCers readiness just doesn't matter...they may be stuck and just make a decision for G's Sake!

Such a balance...

For all posters...do what you feel is best and right for you...not what I or someone else would do.

HUGS,
RCR

[inmyplace]

You're welcome, Pam. You don't have to make any quick decisions.

[inmyplace]

do what you feel is best and right for you...not what I or someone else would do.

Yes. But no matter what, live the life you want whether your spouse is there or not. And if you don't like something, you have the choice to change it or to live with it. Either is acceptable. But if you choose to live with it, embrace the choice and live positively.

CMNM, I have mentioned my friend, dotto, a number of times. She is a stander, one who I believe will stand forever. She is divorced, but I have never heard her say one bad word about her H. She lives her life. She does the things she wants to do and she stands for her marriage. And she does see him because of family.

Now, if that doesn't float your boat, you do what you have to do to make a change.

IMP

[CMNM]

So ask yourself this...what is it that you are afraid of...beyond the final coffin nail. Do you fear being alone, not being able to pay bills, your children's future relationships, your children's present and future well-being, without you he will not be saved (exit the tunnel or something else), that divorce taints you--and you are a failure, that no one will love you again, your children will blame you, you will not be able to get up in the morning without him there--because he is your life, that without him you will not be complete...?

That's not a rhetorical question. Think long and hard about it. And notice that most of the examples I gave weren't relationship focused problems.

O.K., I am ready to answer this. Warning: If you are new and hopeful (or old and hopeful!) you may not want to read this!

What I fear more than anything is never having the chance to give my all to my H. That may sound ludicrous given the length of time I have been married (20+ years), but it is true. I didn't know/understand so many things until these past few years. My eyes have truly been opened.

Now that I know better, I can do better. It hurts so much to know that I won't be given the chance in this relationship. It hurts to know that I hurt the man I love, and I cannot fix it. Not only do I fear never having the chance to do things the right way, but I also fear having to live with the fact that I was married to the man I wanted to grow old(er) with and I blew it.

Sometimes I feel myself getting angry at my parents for modeling for me some really incorrect ways of having a relationship. Then I tell myself that it is not their fault. I am my own person and I need to be responsible for my mistakes.


In reading over this thread, it has really hit home that I don't really want just any answers. I want the one answer that everyone here wants: Yes, your spouse will come home and you will live happily ever after. Even though I know better I find myself still wanting someone to tell me that. I fear never getting past that. I fear always having that hope, even though everything tells me that hope should have died long ago.

And finally, I do fear for my sons' future relationships. My H is a product of divorce, and I am so afraid that my sons will think that it is o.k. to do the same someday. I fear that they will give up when they need to keep slugging away at things.

How I get past these things? I have no idea. But, I will keep working at it.

Pam