Getting a grip on emotions IS within your power. Taking considered action independent of them does not imply lack of care. I think it actually implies depth of care.
Brilliant!
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
My point is that the fact that your bf is who he is has been a help in you getting to where you are now.
Absolutely. But that is part of my goal... I'm really picky about who I choose to spend my time with. When I have to be around people I'd rather not... I still use this method.
Quote:
If you were still with your ex these past several months, do you think you would be off your SSRI’s even with the awareness you have learned?
I wasn't on the SSRI's when I was with him. I went on the SSRI's because of those horrid panic attacks. I don't know if you watched that clip Martelo posted where the guy discusses how having TOO MANY options is actually counter-productive to happiness... well.. that was what was happened to me... and it was overwhelming. Even with my awareness, I was not effective in managing my own panic attacks. They were just too much for me. So I got help. I think it took awareness for me to seek help.
Quote:
Quote:
You tell me you've accepted that your wife is as she is because of some very serious flaws you doubt she will ever be able to heal. Yet in the next breath... you seem mad and frustrated she won't work with you to improve things. That is very confusing to me...
Just because I accept something doesn’t mean I have to like it. I can’t erase the memories of how things were early in the M, or even with old relationships. Why is that confusing?
Of course not. I'm confused about your goal. To me, if you really do accept your wife for how she is (whether you like it or not), I'm not sure why you continue complain and allow her to frustrate you. That doesn't indicate acceptance to me. I'm getting that you are trying to change her so you don't have to feel frustrated (or some other negative emotion).
Is that accurate? If so, that, to me, is where our disconnect is occurring.
Quote:
So you learned to empower yourself and steer your own ship, and it seems you have not over-steered, but have been able to set a fairly balanced course.
Well, whether some would call getting a divorce a 'balanced course.' But I didn't divorce him for revenge, no.
Quote:
The Nice Guy book warns against abusing the lure of power, that once you realize you have the ability to stand up for yourself, Nice Guys will sometimes go too far with that power and end up over-reacting out of resentment and abusing that new found power in order to get revenge.
You have no idea, and yes... the awareness of that power is staggering in its responsibility.... that saying... 'with great power comes great responsibility.' Sometimes... yeah, I'd like to be ignorant again... get back in my comfy cozy C.U. chair and let it ALL be someone else's fault.
And when you operate at that level, and you know someone else ISN'T operating at that level, you could very easily manipulate the heck out of them.
Quote:
when cooperation drops off the radar screen, and it starts to feel like she is in the M only for her needs, then it become an issue for me.
How come?
Quote:
How did you come to open your eyes and see what you could not see before, and not over-react to the point of revenge?
My shrink's pointy-witch shoes make mine look like slippers.
He'd be telling me all this stuff for years... and though I was hearing him, I never really felt like I actually 'got' it, you know?
I don't really want to write out my history here again... but I do remember the instant it all kind of clicked... it was right after my car accident (his lack of concern and empathy just astounded me), and on the wall in the airport I saw a sign advertising some car... it said "You have been a passenger far too long..." I was in the passenger seat when my sister crashed us into that wall... THAT was having no choice. I suppose to truly understand what it felt like to really NOT have a choice is what opened my eyes to the fact that my life up til that moment had been nothing but me giving away my choices.
Choices are a precious thing. And once I realized I did in fact have the power of choice... (and I had known and it had been working toward it... it just didn't REALLY gel until that moment)... it is literally impossible to sit in that C.U. chair.
Quote:
My problem right now is that while I understand that both W and I have the right to steer our own ship, I do not have to like the path she is steering.
So?
Quote:
She can steer as she likes and does not have to like my path, but if I want connection, then I had better take into consideration her likes and dislikes.Because she lives in her cave, she does not care (or thinks she cares) whether I like her path or not. Those are my emotions and they are not her problem. But there are her problem because my unhappiness will ultimately affect her happiness. In a marriage the two cannot be completely separated. We can accept the path the other is on, but we don’t have to like it.
Ah. I see. You are jumping. You want her to BE a certain way, so you can FEEL a certain way. You are seeking the emotion. Let's put it this way.
I'm not so sure you want connection as much as you want the feeling. So... if she doesn't connect, you think you now can't feel how you want to, and then you get even more disgruntled because she won't cooperate. You blame her.
My point is this. You can choose to NOT give that negative emotion YOUR power. If you don't feed it, it WILL go away. That is independent action YOU CAN TAKE, regardless of what she does or does not do.
The desire here, first, is to not feel bad. You THINK she is the one who can fix this. And if she cooperates and you get what you want, it solidifies that belief. So when she doesn't cooperate, and you aren't getting what you want (to not feel bad), you THINK she is the one with the power over YOUR emotions.
That is simply not the case. You can literally, literally STOP YOURSELF FROM FEELING BAD.
Once YOU have taken control of YOUR emotion, she is out of the loop. This is what I mean by steering your own ship. Once she is out of this mental loop YOU have been putting her in, everything changes. Everything else about that scenario you just described falls away.
Try it. Seriously. Don't believe me... do it yourself.
And if you do it right, you are going to have a big empty space of pure opportunity, and it's going to kind of shock you... 'now what do I do/feel?' often comes to mind.
That's why it helps to have a plan. GGB ran into that very thing.
Why do you think it is so easy for me to piss off newcomers?
Because they LET me. And they don't even realize it.
Corri
You don't piss all of us newbies off and most of us need that pointed boot in the ass anyways to help wake us up and get us on the right track. I'm not on the right track yet or even close so feel free to kick away ! ooop, speaking of kicking, boss is back so I better get back to work.
That is simply not the case. You can literally, literally STOP YOURSELF FROM FEELING BAD.
This is complete and utter nonsense. This general idea has been bandied about on this board some much it has become gospel. What you can do is ratchet down your expectations, put out of your mind any desire for a better M, better sex, better anything. Instead focus on the here and now and forget that you ever tasted of the forbidden fruit. Yeah, that can make you feel better, until you remember how things used to be. Other kinds of brainwashing can make you feel better too. Is that what this is all about?
Ah. I see. You are jumping. You want her to BE a certain way, so you can FEEL a certain way.
I prefer to think of it as not wanting to ratchet down my expectations in order to meet her lower standards of EC.
I'm not so sure you want connection as much as you want the feeling.
I don’t know how you can have feelings without connection, unless you revert to the brainwashing exercise.
My point is this. You can choose to NOT give that negative emotion YOUR power. If you don't feed it, it WILL go away. That is independent action YOU CAN TAKE, regardless of what she does or does not do.
Yes, I can actively choose to capitulate.
… So when she doesn't cooperate, and you aren't getting what you want (to not feel bad), you THINK she is the one with the power over YOUR emotions.
She is the one who has the power of choice in how she responds to my actions (just as I have choice in making my actions). Were I still single, I would just go fishing until I found someone who responded as I like. I do not have that option, so I am not stuck with either accepting her responses at what I consider to be a suboptimal level or not. If not, then it goes back to her to leave her response as it is or change it. She is also stuck in this marriage in that she cannot fish around for other initial actions.
So what is the fair outcome? Is it fair that I shift my actions and desires to meet her needs, without her changing her reactions or needs? Is the reverse fair? I think neither is right because resentment can build. The only fair outcome is compromise of both actions and the ratcheting up or down of expectations.
Once YOU have taken control of YOUR emotion, she is out of the loop.
How is this so, if her response does have an affect on my emotion, and it is my emotion that is at the core of the issue (as well as her emotion)? What you propose is complete detachment and little more than a reversion to single living. There is no connection, no consideration of one another. She does her thing. I do mine. If we happen to cross paths, great, if not too bad. I know that can’t be your idea of a family.
I understand that this may be how it has to be, but as I stated before, it is not an optimal state, but a choice to accept the lesser of two evils. I can accept that. This is the real world after all. So maybe what we have is a disconnect over definitions. If I define a truly connected, interdependent relationship in which the needs of both people are fully met and acknowledged (without the baggage of enmeshment) as a level 10 relationship, then is what you propose something less that 10, say a 7? But that 7 is still better then not driving your own ship (ie, not detaching), which would otherwise result in an even lower level, say a 5? If so, then your proposal is to not wallow at a level 5, but detach and move to level 7, knowing it is still not as good as a 10, right? What I think gets lost on the many posts here is that there is a difference between your proposed level 7 and the “optimal” level 10. Too many times it seems discussions ignore this difference and seem to treat the level 7 as if it were as good as a level 10. What I have been arguing for the past few weeks is that there is difference.
Try it. Seriously. Don't believe me... do it yourself. \:\)
And if you do it right, you are going to have a big empty space of pure opportunity, and it's going to kind of shock you... 'now what do I do/feel?' often comes to mind.
I don’t know… I do plenty of the get-a-life thing, doing my own detaching to deal with her detaching. I’ve not encountered any sort of shock over pure opportunity.
Why do you think it is so easy for me to piss off newcomers? Because they LET me. And they don't even realize it.
Partly. Partly because they are new to this relationship, differentiation, detachment, FOO thing, they are still in denial, they don’t even know there is such as thing as a hot button, much less what their buttons are, who knows what else… They see hope slipping out of their grasp. It scares them. Sure they let you piss them off, but they are also clinging tightly to an ideal, trying to get back to that level 10. When told that this is simply not possible, and part of the reason is due to them, well, of course they get mad. So is it a matter of them not having learned to recognize and then control their reactivity (this letting you piss them off), or is it a matter of not having yet ratcheted down their expectations?
Stop. You keep running ahead and completely missing what I am saying to you. I understand all the things you are saying, but I am talking about a very specific thing.
Quote:
Quote:
That is simply not the case. You can literally, literally STOP YOURSELF FROM FEELING BAD.
This is complete and utter nonsense.
No it isn't. I'm not throwing a theory or a philosophy at you. This can actually be done when you learn how to do it.
I understand how you want to argue with me about it. But there isn't anything to argue about. That would be like arguing over if you could learn how to throw a ball.
I'm not proposing any magical outcomes. I am telling you to try it, and see what happens. For yourself.
Quote:
I don’t know… I do plenty of the get-a-life thing, doing my own detaching to deal with her detaching. I’ve not encountered any sort of shock over pure opportunity.
I am not talking about getting a life. I am not telling you to detach.
Quote:
You can actively NOT negative emotion YOUR power. If you don't feed it, it WILL go away. That is independent action YOU CAN TAKE, regardless of what she does or does not do.
That's it. That's all I'm talking about. It's the same kind of thing you might do when you 'focus' during TKD.
I'm not saying ignore the feeling, or try and convince yourself you don't really feel a certain way. This is your body, your emotions. The same way you can train your body, your can train for this. It takes awareness, first and foremost.
Cobra What you can do is ratchet down your expectations, put out of your mind any desire for a better M, better sex, better anything. Instead focus on the here and now and forget that you ever tasted of the forbidden fruit. Yeah, that can make you feel better, until you remember how things used to be.
Cobra, how things used to be isn't likely going to happen again.
I do see the above post of yours as what is happening with me. I also see more parallel activities going on between BB and myself.
I will say NMMNG and a few things on the forum have gotten me to expect less and be in charge of me, my feelings, and some changes will cause me to appear less dependent on BB or the M.
I am sure parts of the concepts will work. I don't know if it will rekindle my desire for the R or BB, or rekindle BB's desire.
I mostly only have me and that is all I can change.
And, yes you can eliminate some frustrations by giving up expectations. I see a place, not necessarily happy like you originally wanted to be, but better in some ways.
I am not talking about getting a life. I am not telling you to detach.
You can actively NOT negative emotion YOUR power. If you don't feed it, it WILL go away. That is independent action YOU CAN TAKE, regardless of what she does or does not do.
Let me try to understand what you're saying because I'm not sure I know what you mean. Are you saying that when my wife does or does not do something that makes me upset, that I should basically block out any emotions (which will be the negatives ones, there won’t likely be an excess of positive ones), or at least “not feed” those negative emotions? Sort of like taking an apathetic approach to it, saying "what ever," just walking away, treat it like viewing a science experiment under glass? As far as I know, that is detachment, isn't it?
American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary de•tach•ment (d-tchmnt) n. 1. The act or process of disconnecting or detaching; separation. 2. The state of being separate or detached. 3. Indifference to or remoteness from the concerns of others; aloofness. 4. Absence of prejudice or bias; disinterest.
What in this definition have I missed?
I'm not saying ignore the feeling, or try and convince yourself you don't really feel a certain way.
Huh? So how do I detach and “not feed” the negative emotions while at the same time not ignore my feelings? What you are telling me IS detachment. That’s ok, nothing wrong with that. It’s a boundary issue, that’s all.
But how does detaching, which is an avoidant behavior, work toward repairing a relationship with another avoider? How does this make her realize she is in a C.U. chair? I don’t see the purpose in this or where it could possibly lead, other than to hand over even more power to her to do as she pleases. Stopping my reactivity will do nothing toward changing her behavior. BTDT, remember?
So she right now has less power to do as she pleases?
Yep. Over the past few years I've consistently taken back power, from the finances to the kids, to her bully tactics. Things are better than they were, but there is a long way to go before I would even hazard describing us as "healthy."
