Love, what is it, is it real, does it matter?

[LoginName]

This is coming from my sitch, but I think it's universal. I didn't see a better forum to post this in. We'll see if it works here.

ILYBINILWY. What does it mean?

I think you can be concerned for someone, care for someone, like someone's company, but is that love? How many of us have found ourselves in a M/R that felt like "just roommates or friends"? Nothing wrong with being friends, but what if you want more?

Intimacy. Is that what it is? Not love (no such thing?) but there is intimacy that can build, grow, and nurish.

Or is there something special, a feeling unique to the emotion called love?

Is love a choice? What does that mean? I can chose to care about someone, or be a freind. Can I chose to love? Does it depend on how you define love?

I love my kids. It's so instinctual I can't doubt it. It's not the same as the love I thought I had, wish I had, want to have, with my W.

My W says she cares for me, she likes me, she thinks I'm a great dad, she enjoys my company - but she doesn't "LOVE" me. She says she doesn't believe, especially at our age, in that lightening bolt, uncontrollable feeling of love, but I think that must be what she is waiting for. Does it exist? Does it last? Is serial marriage the only way to keep that feeling alive?

I'd really like to hear,read your thoughts on love.

[cat03]

there was the puppy love, the "summer" of love, when the person you fell for was flawless and every love song was composed for you and your intended.

After the honeymoon and the 1rst year you and your S find faults in each other, the "lightning bold", the rainbows and pixie dust fade a bit. Love is knowing someone and still want them, like them, for who they are.

Later on, love becomes a decision, a commitment, because why would you stay w/someone if they did irritating things that you can't stand? because you consciously accept that person, with their good and bad traits and DECIDE to stick by and give them your affection and time. Because you made your vows at the altar to love and cherish for better and for worse.

Not until I lost my H that I saw how much I loved him, how I loved hearing the screen slam shut and the door swinging open kwowing it was him, how it was nice to come home and see his car on the driveway. I almost killed the love he had for me with my negligence and bad attitude.
He thought what he felt for me was a cover up, he made himself believed he never was truly happy in order to leave. When he came back he realized we had a history together and that we did have good times. He had to build his love back up for me, I knew it, it hurt, but months went by and he is able to tell me he loves me and give me a heartfelt hug.

[TreadingWater]

H and I have been dancing around this issue for a while...

We've been using the word "connected" to describe the feelings of closeness, interconnectedness, intimacy... that most people want to feel with their S. "Love" can just mean too many things to too many people.

H been consistant about saying that he still loves me and cares for me - I never got the ILYBINILWY line. What I got instead was "I don't feel 'connected'. He says that OW and he have always felt a really strong connection. (She's an old flame, so "always" is a superset of our entire relationship.) Initially, he talked about being soulmates and other vague stuff. She always "just knows" what he needs (does this sound like infatuation to anyone else?) But, we've really tried to dive into this, and came up with some stuff that makes for connection:

- US not just ME and YOU. OK, maybe this falls into that vague "soulmates" category, but it got me thinking about whether we ever do thing "for the relationship". We definitely do things for each other, but maybe we'd fell more connected - more "in love" - if we did things for the relationship.
- Having/making big plans together. Working towards something shared, like moving, starting a family, building a house, planning retirement...
- Shared adventure or challenge. For us, this usually happens when we're traveling or hiking. You get lost, and have to work together to find your way back. If the hike or the trip goes really smoothly, is doesn't serve to "connect" us as much, even thought it's really fun.
- physical intimacy
- crisis. Like when a friend or family member dies. Kind of feeling closer because you went through hell together.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the kind of love I want to have with H. No doubt, the list is not complete, but it starts to describe "love" for me.

[LoginName]

"Connected" is a good word. Intimate is too. I think I could have said what your H said to my W. I didn't feel connected, intimate. I felt 'unloved'. I told myself I still loved my W. So I knew our M had problems - I didn't think she felt that way too. I was surprised when she dropped the bomb.

You're right, your H's feeling toward OW do sound like infatuation. My W left for OM who was high school sweetheart. Similar thing.

Now to what I think is really important, and I thank you for pointing this stuff out....
- US, not me or you! Doing things for the relationship. That makes a lot of sense to me. Can you give concrete examples? My W and I felt like good friends/roommates. Roommates do nice things for each other, but we want to be more than that, closer, more connected, to our spouse.
- shared adventure/challenges. Maybe that's the example I was looking for. Again, I think this is good and important.
- physical intimacy; that's a loaded one, but really important. I messed this up in my M by playing a stupid head game. I didn't appreciate what I had, felt I deserved more 'intimacy' and she felt like she could never meet my expectation, never love me enough to satisfy me. Kids were a big part of how this started. But physical intimacy, I think, is a key ingredient.

I think that's a good description of love that you've presented. I agree with it. Thanks for the input. I hope to add something good myself soon.

[LoginName]

I guess I'm a secret romantic (i.e. "fool"). If love becomes a decision, how can it be love? Love transends other feelings, time, moods, etc. Or a part of me still believes.

I agree with you though, and with treadingwater. I think that you build that kind of love, by working on the R, deciding to make the effort. Maybe you decide to make the effort because you've built enough good feeling in the R that it seems worth the effort.

I almost killed (I hope almost, and not for good) my W's love for me. My W is trying, although she doesn't say it like this, to build her love for me again. I hope someday I get to where you are and she can say ILY and give me a heartfelt hug too.

[LoginName]

Love is a trick evolution plays on us humans to ensure the continuation of the species - that's all it is.

At first, there is infatuation. It is rooted in pheramones and psychological needs. When this fades, other chemicals and hormones help the couple stay together long enough to ensure children are created and protected until they are old enough to survive.

In by gone days, women often died in childbirth, men died in accidents, life expectancy was much shorter. There wasn't much divorce because your spouse would die soon enough anyway. Then you could remarry.

Marriage is an economic institution that has outlived it's usefullness. In the past, property was passed down by inheritance, and children were often needed to work the farm and take care of aged parents. None of those factors apply today. In the past, women needed men for their strength. That is no longer true. In the more recent past, laws kept women from being economically strong. That has changed. Women no longer need men, except to provide the sperm. That is changing.

Unfortunately, kids still need 2 parents. Evolution is behind and needs to catch up.

Marriage wasn't meant to last. Love is a biological trick.

But, damn it, I want it. I want love. I want to love her and have her love me.

[LoginName]

You know, it doesn't help when she calls, talks to me, is friendly, expresses concern. It kind of confuses me. What does she want? How long will she want to leave things as they are? How long can I stand the lack of ILYs?

I'm glad she calls. I'm glad she and I are friends. I'm glad my kids have 2 parents. I'm thankful that the sitch is not much worse. But, it's hard sometimes.

[tyler]

Love is a trick evolution plays on us humans to ensure the continuation of the species - that's all it is.

At first, there is infatuation. It is rooted in pheramones and psychological needs. When this fades, other chemicals and hormones help the couple stay together long enough to ensure children are created and protected until they are old enough to survive.

In by gone days, women often died in childbirth, men died in accidents, life expectancy was much shorter. There wasn't much divorce because your spouse would die soon enough anyway. Then you could remarry.

Marriage is an economic institution that has outlived it's usefullness. In the past, property was passed down by inheritance, and children were often needed to work the farm and take care of aged parents. None of those factors apply today. In the past, women needed men for their strength. That is no longer true. In the more recent past, laws kept women from being economically strong. That has changed. Women no longer need men, except to provide the sperm. That is changing.

Unfortunately, kids still need 2 parents. Evolution is behind and needs to catch up.

Marriage wasn't meant to last. Love is a biological trick.

But, damn it, I want it. I want love. I want to love her and have her love me.

Yeah baby! Let it rip, get it all out.

Now start working on the want part. Do you really want her, the her that is now present in your life, to love you? Think about that in relation to detaching and space. I am.

[toughlover]

Love is the only thing that matters because it ain't a feeling. A variety of feelings accompany it, and they can and do change from time to time.

Love is the acceptance of responsibility for a relationship. There is some truth in the evolutionary causalities you mentioned, bro, but that's not the last word.

Lust, infaturation, addiction to the body's own brain chemicals, they are a factor as well.

Marriage has never been about women needing men for their strength. Marriage has always been about the children, really. Yes, even for those who for one reason or another can't have them...don't get the cart before the horse.

Marriage is an institution that was really created by God to give us the opportunity to become more like him...and to become closer to him. Love is the path and the experience and the price we pay for that transformation. And it ain't always pretty.

It's simply another opportunity for to lose ourselves in order to find ourselves. The problem is that too many people lose themselves in things that don't return anything at all in the end, much less self-discovery or transformation.

If you can simply live by the premise that it's all about being the right person...not for your spouse, or even your kids, but for the One who created you, things will happen that you simply cannot believe right now.

[Sara]

I was shocked at Retrouvaille when they told us "love is a decision." I thought, no way. But I have come to see that they are right. If you choose to love a person, the love will grow and you will feel the emotion.

I know this sounds silly, but it is true. My daughter brought a puppy home from college. He is a very cute border collie. Then she went to New Zealand for a semester abroad and left the dog with me. I had my own dog who I loved. I really didn't care for her dog. I played with him and fed him, but I didn't feel any love for him. He developed allergies and scratched away most of the fur on his body, and made sores on his skin. He looked terrible and I felt sorry for him. And I thought, this dog needs somebody to love him. But my daughter wouldn't be back for months. So I decided to pretend I loved the dog. I called him over and petted him a lot and told him I loved him. It seemed so difficult, but as the weeks went by it got easier and came naturally. Now I do love her dog and my dog. And he looks a lot better. (I'm pretty sure that my husband did not respond well to hearing me say I loved the dog. That had to be the next decision, and it came later, after we went to Retrouvaille.)

I don't think that head in the clouds love feeling is a decision. I think that really is an emotion -- a passing emotion. And much as we would like to live our lives like that, we can't. Every day can't be our birthday either.