I've been wanting to post to your recent information, but was waiting to be sure I had something useful to add. Hoping that I accomplish that. Your legions of supporters have said a great deal here, but sign me up for the home team.
Quote: Yes I have felt this way all along, but alas as my sister had just said to me this evening, "You can't make it your obligation to try to prevent that for her." ... She's right! So I have to let her go and if that is her fate, then so be it! Don't mean to sound callous, but I cannot prevent her fate from being so if that is the path she wish to blindly follow.
This is really wise, KAW. She has to make her own choices and, while I tend to agree with PIB's assessment of the situation, it's impossible to stand there and put up all the road signs, direct her driving and establish only healthy roads for her to travel down. And the fact is, trying to do it often creates resentment-- even when the intentions behind your efforts are solid gold. There is nothing callous about realizing what is absolutely out of your realm of control at all-- and what is within it.
I've taken a long time to really and truly integrate this lesson myself, so I share it with that sentiment.
As for your comment about the ultimate conflict avoider... well, sure you have anger bubbling up in there. I'd be a little concerned about whether you were in touch and honest with your emotions if you didn't feel some of that! But there is also realism, reality, practicality, whatever you wish to call it-- leaving without the conversation IS conflict avoidance. It just IS what it IS. And you know, identifying the reality of people's actions is important, IMO.
Kind of goes without saying that your path has taken you in some positive directions that will serve you well for a long time to come. But hey, I'm not above stating the obvious.
Your own growth is the silver lining... and discovering where you stand about second-rate not ever being acceptable for you is a very big and valuable lesson. You are deserving of first-rate all the way. Sometimes they do come back... and you really never know what will happen, but you do need to know where your own personal bar is set based on your own personal set of circumstances.
Take care of YOU right now... in all senses of what that means. And then there will be no real dark side to fall into.
KAW -- Been in lurk mode for long enough on your thread...wanted to throw my support your way and let you know that I'm sorry for recent developments in your sitch (and even sorrier for the way that CAW seems to be approaching them ) but have every confidence in YOU and your ability to meet this challenge.
CAW clearly has no idea what she's giving up...and that makes me feel sorry for her too.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
KAW, I've also been in "lurk mode" while keeping up with your situation. I'm so sorry about this latest turn of events. You've been at this for so long -- and in some respects that is to your advantage. You are much better equipped to handle this now than you were two years ago. You will be just fine.
You posted above that if CAW would ever want to reconcile after having been with the OM that you don't think you'd be able to do that - you would feel that you were "second best." Remember that old saying, "We don't know what we have until we lose it"? Could be that CAW needs to "lose" you in order to remember/discover all that she already has with you -- that she most likely will never have with the OM.
Your e-mail and your post are so insightful, and you continually amaze me with the depth of your understanding for this stuff.
HoldingOn makes a point on the custody while engaged in a R with OM. I believe that Merrick also did some research as to the laws of your state and I think you might find that D11's fate isn't necessarily sealed as far as living with her mom is concerned? Merrick is on vacation until Monday, and I'm sure he will be happy to share his atty info with you. He sent me her bio, but I can't seem to find it--otherwise, I'd send it your way.
I found your insight on the "is this fair" issue extremely uplifting. To see that you understand that you deserve to be #1 to another woman is a wonderful thing. I'm really proud of you for stating this out here for the rest of us to see.
I'll respond more to your reply via e-mail.
But I do want to touch on the anger thing here, because I think it's an issue that none of us should forget--the lesson is always present and needs to be managed.
KAW, I see your anger as completely justified. The fact that you are acknowledging its presence is a good thing. And even better? You know that you need a supportive outlet to share it so it doesn't build and turn inward. I've read enough about you to know that you are a solution minded guy.
Well, anger directed inward only prevents that process. So good for you for recognizing that you are feeling angry. Hey, I think at the very least, she should be communicating with you on why this path is going to happen rather than pull a Robert Ursay and move out in the middle of the night... of course, I'm one for disclosure, but then again, I think I'm sort of reasonable.
Next on the agenda is the convo between you and your sister--on not preventing CAW from bearing the consequences of her choices.
Another thought that rolls around some of my spiritual and religious friends is the concept of consequences. That allowing someone to fall is part of the overall plan and unfortunately, it seems to be a big factor for most of us to learn and grow.
After all, you would undoubtedly allow your children to face them, so it goes without saying that your spouse needs to accept responsibility for his or her decisions as well. This isn't KAW's decision, but CAW's. I'm glad you addressed this topic here.
I don't fear, KAW. The fact that you're addressing some of the more negative aspects of this process here with the rest of us is healthy. And if you don't feel comfortable venting here at times, feel free to shoot me off an e-mail. I'm happy to listen (just ask Merrick or Hud).
My final statement with a big cyber hug is that you deserve to be #1. That is true, and I hope you never forget it. I think this is what I was trying to realize earlier this summer. Staying married to Mr. Wonderful just for the sake of staying married is no longer an option for me. I deserve to be loved above all others, and so do you.
Three cheers for all of us here on the BB!
Now off to work before I get fired...
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Hi KAW - As sorry as I am to see these recent developments, I know you have been bracing yourself for something like this for a while. Does not make it easier, I know. I am thinking of you, and including you in my prayers. As many before me have said more eloquently, you deserve only the best, and I'm sure you will find that once this mess is out of the way.
Oh KAW.....so much has happened this last week or so. But...as so many of said, you have anticipated this in some form for quite a while. Y'know....in some way....CAW really making a decision might finally give you some RELIEF. Wondering about her and her next move is heart-wrentching....I felt that way for almost a year before my H moved out. I actually think the sep was GOOD for me too. (Even tho very hard at times.... )
I would follow up with some sound advice regarding D11...she should be your primary concern, and I know is. She needs your love now more than ever!
I don't have any profound advice....so many of your fans/followers have offered so much. Just know, I too...think you are a wonderful man....full of goodness and genuine values that we all want to uphold. Hang on tight to your beliefs...especially in yourself. God has a plan....trust Him and let go. One day this will all unfold and you will find the happiness and love you deserve...I just know that.
I’m on the day shift again so I’m a bit more limited on what I can post and so for now I’ll just post an update most of which I typed off line. Later, I’ll respond to you all.
To start off with an attention getter (like I really need that at this point?!) let me ask for some input on something ... Don’t you think it awfully strange for roommates of the opposite sex to be comfortably (especially for a WAW) nude while sleeping in the same bed? For nearly two decades CAW and I have been doing that as H & W, but now that she’s looking to move out ... for the past three days that’s how its been.
To CAW’s credit, she approached me Friday evening about moving out. At first, since its been so long since we talked about emotional issues to one another, it felt very odd as if neither of us could find the words to say, but we ended up going thru the whole gamut of issues in the next three hours. I’m not going to try to transcribe the talk here ... there’s too much to cover. Some of it was anticipated and there were surprises on both sides. It came out that there is still a lot of anger on both sides and she still has a lot of fear. Inside I felt I wasn’t DBing to my best, but I felt it was the opportunity we could clear up some of what has transpired over the last two years.
I validated some but not as well as I could had, but more than I would have w/o the DBing background. At first she only stuck to the topic of ... its all about her ... She is still unhappy, ILYBNILWY, I need to see if I can be an independent person, etc ... and so forth. In this she brought up that she still feels I harbor a lot of anger. Now, I’ve really done a lot of work on myself in this area. I haven’t lost my temper in over two years. We haven’t had a fight in two years. When I get angry at something D11 did, I would either send her to her room or I would go to another room until I’d cool down, then we would work out the issue. There has been literally a handful of time where she was within earshot when I had express my frustrations of the moment. Things like home computer acting up or an idiot that cut me off while driving, but wouldn’t you know it ... those were the times she used to support her opinion. Then the big one hit …
She lost three of her children and she doesn’t want to lose the last, and the other three blamed it on me! This HURT and hurt deep! Hopefully, w/o cover going into too much history, the first two (D24 & S23) were from her previous M when she was 18 years old. M did last two years, but she was still M when we met. She left them while I was in the picture. Unfortunately, for the father the kids were pawn to hurt their mother. For the next 10 years with my full support, we fought an encumbered battle in family court for custody, the kids were neglected by their father. We eventually won custody, but by then since they were raised in a different environment, there was a clash almost immediately when it came to adjusting to a structured life. School, bedtimes, three balanced meals vs. junk food all day long, picking up after themselves, etc ... In a matter of months, when their father announced he was moving out of state to Pittsburgh, they decided to go with him ... and right to the present it seems they still express to their mother how they resent me for coming between their parents, eventho she has attempt to explain the reasons that M was doomed from the start and would never had lasted. (I’ll exclude going into that now for brevity sake). Later, in the conversation, she mentions how D24 is coming back and moving in with her BF in Oct. to help out. So much for the argument of “... needing to know I can be independent.”, but I digress…
Without going into 40 years of history, I really never like my parents growing up and I swore I would never do to my kids what they did to me. So it really hurts how events transpired that lead to my eldest, D19, leaving the house 2½ years ago. We have worked hard at rebuilding our R, but it hurt to hear CAW bring it up again and she can’t bear to think of that happening with D11. (Multiple stabbing pains to the chest and clear thru to the other side!). I was shocked!!! ... but validated ... I’m sorry for the pain you went thru and evidently still going thru because D19 moved out and I didn’t know that you were thinking such incredibly scary thoughts about D11. I certainly wouldn’t want to see that come about either and promise you I will do everything I can to avoid that from happening again.
At that point, I knew in my heart I had to let her go, but I knew she was telling all and I had to know. Upon asking about the money for the apartment, she said she got some information about getting a loan but that was all she would say. I tried to lead her into coming clean with OM, but she didn’t take the bait. So forsaking DBing goals (to me it was too important for her to come clean.) one-by-one I played my cards to get her to come out with it little by little. It got a bit heated, but we got thru it and now I think she has a better comprehension of what I’ve been thru in the past 18 months.
At first when I brought that when she asked me to store her brother’s cell number at the hospital, I say OM’s name in directory. Yes, they still talk. He is just a friend. I’m sorry but I have heard from others that there was more to it. I brought the time she went to D19’s candle party and used the phone in the kitchen to call OM and what D19 overheard and how she was offended. For those who weren’t reading my threads last Oct ... D19 was working with CAW in the school kitchen. CAW’s best girlfriend (BGF) also works with her and by best friends, I mean this woman knows all of CAW’s secrets! Well last Oct. it got so bad that CAW would be telling BGF what she would like to do with OM within earshot of D19 as well as dissing me in the process. It became so uncomfortable, D19 ended up quitting, but she didn’t tell CAW the real reason ... just that she found something better. Well, I brought that up as well. She said while she & BGF talk about everything, she remembers no such times of talking about OM in the kitchen and if she was mad about something I did, yea she’d bring it up with BGF, so!
At this point, she was getting agitated and it became apparent that she wasn’t going to voluntarily come clean, so while knowing I was going to hold onto my aces, I played a trump card ... the journal ... knowing there was going to be some residual from that blast but at this point I didn’t care, I needed to hear it from her what the R with OM means to her. She tried to say since that was her thought last year that it was ancient history, but I mentioned I had documentation proving she intended to leave to be with him in Feb of this year and more about how in the spring she was leaving D11 in the house alone to see him as she continue to fight it at every point. To sum up without going thru the entire blow by blow ... in the end she said she came to realize that R would never go anywhere and still has no bearing on her leaving.
She did break down and with my last card played thought maybe I was going to declaring her an unfit mother. I embraced her at that point and said I was not going there, I just needed to know what the R with OM meant to her and wished she would had come forth with it on her own so I would had needed to pull it out of her. To myself tho, I thought I also got the point across too that I was not going to be a doormat for any unreasonable requests that may come forth in the upcoming talks about custody and any financial support. I still feel she holding some things back, but I let it go.
Knowing how CAW holds grudges I expected to receive the cold & distant persona for a long time to come, but strangely as the conversation wound down, the friendly tones came back on both sides. By 10:30 we were both emotionally spent. I had offered to sleep on the couch, but she said she didn’t want that and took my arm and put it around her and I’m going what the he$$!!, but I say, “You know this is what I will miss the most” She stays silent and as she fitfully slept, I turn on the TV and watched the encore airing of both Stargate shows! (Whew! Thought I was going to miss them.) I turn off the TV at 1:00 am , but by 2:00 am we were both lying in bed awake knowing neither of us will be getting a good night’s sleep, she slides closer and starts to snuggle. Next she gives me those eyes and I know what that means, so I say, “So this will be our one last time.” She replies, “I don’t think so.” and then she adds, “This is what I will miss the most.” Then she starts to giggle and I ask why and all she says is “Its silly.” I prod, but she hesistates, but I didn’t want to let it go so she relents and say, “Maybe once in a while you can spend the night.” I didn’t say a thing and just kissed her and welL ...
The rest of the weekend, we talked some more and boy was it bittersweet in that there was lots of arm holding, hugs and kisses on her behalf. It was almost unbearable under the circumstances ... but we worked out arrangements for D11 as she stated she wanted to keep the courts out of it. She agreed to a 50-50 joint custody arrangement and started to list what she can have from the house for the apartment.
Wow this is getting long, so I’ll cut it off here, but I need to acknowledge Hoping (Sue), Mooka, and Underdog (Betsey) for if it weren’t you gals stilling on my shoulder all weekend long, I don’t think I would have fared as well as I did. I hope I get to elaborate on this more later ... but I had make sure I put out here a big …
THANK YOU ... THANK YOU ... THANK YOU ... THANK YOU ... THANK YOU
Thinking about you...sounds like you said some things that needed to be said. I know in my case, when I do that it feels like I'm doing something wrong. But based on the results so far, I think it was a good thing you opened up and said what you needed to say.
) but have every confidence in YOU and your ability to meet this challenge.
This HURT and hurt deep! Hopefully, w/o cover going into too much history, the first two (D24 & S23) were from her previous M when she was 18 years old. M did last two years, but she was still M when we met. She left them while I was in the picture. Unfortunately, for the father the kids were pawn to hurt their mother. For the next 10 years with my full support, we fought an encumbered battle in family court for custody, the kids were neglected by their father. We eventually won custody, but by then since they were raised in a different environment, there was a clash almost immediately when it came to adjusting to a structured life. School, bedtimes, three balanced meals vs. junk food all day long, picking up after themselves, etc ... In a matter of months, when their father announced he was moving out of state to Pittsburgh, they decided to go with him ... and right to the present it seems they still express to their mother how they resent me for coming between their parents, eventho she has attempt to explain the reasons that M was doomed from the start and would never had lasted. (I’ll exclude going into that now for brevity sake). Later, in the conversation, she mentions how D24 is coming back and moving in with her BF in Oct. to help out. So much for the argument of “... needing to know I can be independent.”, but I digress…
