Friends: Anchor, Bruce and Chum's BB Version

[renew4me]

Alright, there is way too much activity on this thread for me to keep up with but I'm trying. Here's the first draft of my list. I need to reflect on it some more, but its a start. Any comments welcome.

Things about W that I will consider
1. Her (newly recognized?) need to take care of herself.
2. Her need for me to listen to her talk just about her, and for me to just listen (often repeating long wandering stories, a lot about her job).
3. Her low sex drive, her conservative sexual style.
4. Her regular, pervasive, and perpetual lateness (being late for everything, staying up late, eating late,...).
5. Her high expectations for getting projects done around the house.

Things about ME that I will consider
1. My wants and needs, and not expressing them as demands.
2. My strong need for affection (physical and otherwise) and affirmation.
3. My tendency to withdraw, close up, or get grumpy.
4. My tendency to be black and white, to think in either/or terms, to be judgemental.
5. My tendency to spend money.

Things I have considered and will not allow in my M
1. Emotional or physical affairs--if we get back together (I am only tolerating it now because we are in limboland).
2. Lack of affection--both verbal and physical.
3. Lateness when it has a serious negative impact on us or others.

BTW, I went to a luncheon seminar today, and one thing the speaker said really stuck out. He said that young love is loving your partner for what they do right, mature love is loving them in spite of what they do wrong.

[TripleJ]

Wow Betsey! What a letter! Took me a while to get through all the metaphors, but hey, I made it.

I am COMPLETE agreement that you should give him this letter. I for one am a letter reader, and it sounds as if Mr. W is a letter reader too. So, feel confident that if the letter was delivered, he will read it. Understanding the letter, well......that's a different story.

I am also in agreement of sending the letter as is. Like your friend suggested, it is time for Mr. W to s**t or get off the pot.

I KNOW you have pondered this, wrestled with it and probably stressed a bit to come to the decision to do this. I have no doubt that this has been well thought out by you, thinking about this for a few weeks now. I am NOT going to ask you for additonal time to think about this.

And I know there are some rumblings out there about the letter being too angry or sarcastic. I say, so what! And here's MHO on why.

Betsey, you have been at this for a long time. Much longer than most of the people who are posting to you, including me. You have ridden more roller coasters. You have seen many ups and downs. You have done the steps religiously without asking for anything in return and receiving nothing.

You have done the Bob Barker gig for a while. You have improved yourself so much, and acted "as if" for so long, that maybe it has become "more of the same" now. Mr. W is expecting you to do nothing. Mr. W is expecting you to be happy go lucky when he sees you. Mr. W is comfortable knowing that you will be there while he drags his feet at a question that you pondered to him over a month ago. My worst fear is that you do nothing and this path continues for years and years, because from your description of Mr. W throughout his whole life, he will not be the one to choose which path anytime soon.

So, in essence, a fire needs to be lit under his behind. And who is going to do it?

Yes, limbo land stinks. No one likes to be there, and you have been the resident manager there for quite some (so much fo staying away from metaphors). But I truly believe, from what you have told us here on the BB, and in off the board chats, Mr. W will not lift a finger. He is content on the status quo and runs and hides when he is faced with a decision that he knows will affect him greatly. He is not one for confrontation.

Now, this needs to be said. I stated clearly that this is MHO. But it is MHO in regards to your sitch and your sitch only. Never would I imagine giving this sort of opinion to someone who has been DBing for only a few weeks or months and wanted to do this.

We all have different sitchs and we need to evaluate them individually, for ourselves. I am offering you what I think and you can take it or leave it, but what I am saying is strictly for you and not anyone else.

You know where you are at. You know that you are at a crossroads. And you definitely know that whatver road you choose, YOU WILL BE ALL RIGHT! You know when it is time, and your decisions I may disagree with, or I may not, but I will back you 100%. I trust you will make the right decision for Betsey and the kids.

You are my FRIEND! Lots of love back to you!

Hugs,

Triple J

[renew4me]

Betsey, I think the letter is very well written. My one comment: I would share it with the MC first, just to get his read. I do appreciate where you are in your sitch, and the need you must feel for a decision--I've only been at this 4 or 5 months, I feel confident I can keep this up for at least 3 or 4 more months, but beyond that is a big question mark for me (unless W gives some indication that she will work with me, that OM is over). I truly admire your perseverance.

[CMNM]

I'm not asking for permission to feel what I feel or standing up and pulling a Horshack and yelling, "Oh, Oh, pick me, Mr. W. pick me!"

As well you shouldn't.

As I told you a few days back via e-mail:

Maybe someday I will doubt my decision based on the fact that I may NEVER get the love I crave if I stay in this relationship. To stay, at this point, is my choice and my choice alone. Yes, my H is trying. Is it enough? Not always. Only time will tell if it will be at some point.

Do you deserve more than what you are getting? Hell yeah! If anyone does, it's you. I would like nothing better than to see you in a relationship full of mutual respect and love.

So, no, you didn't ask my permission for any of this, nor am I giving it. I am, though, giving you my support. Not that you need it, but because it is all I have to give.

I hope that didn't sound mean, because I meant it in nothing but a loving way!

[Phoenix_In_Bloom]

Hi Ladies and Gents,

I'm not having any words of wisdom come to mind.

I am lurking though.

Bets, you have my full support.

Hugs.

[Underdog]

One quick post before I get the heck out of dodge for the day...

Pam,

Yes, my H is trying. Is it enough? Not always. Only time will tell if it will be at some point.

Yes, he is! That's why I advocated you remaining on this course steadfastly and truly. He's gone to MC with you (I know you weren't pleased with that C, rightfully so), but your H has intent on committing to you and your M. I know things have been rocky and ambiguous at times.

But his words and actions are saying loudly and clearly that he loves you and wants to do what he can to stay married to you. Look how far you've come, sweetie!

If Mr. W. were making ANY motions to show me that he's wanting a future with me, this letter would be moot. I would be here reporting all the things that show me he wants the same thing.

I may be irritated and angry. But it's not about his choices. It's because of his deliberate fence sitting.

PIB--Thank you. I know you know this road all too well.

TTFN!

[carrieg]

Boy, if you're off the boards for even a few hours you miss so much on this thread!

Betsey, just want to ring in on my support of your letter. I may be the only reader that didn't see the anger. Hmm, maybe rose-tinted glasses? Not sure, but I liked it. Thought it was direct, well thought out, well written, etc. My only advice, and I'm not sure what sort of a time clock you have set yourself on, is to put the letter away for awhile (length of time, your choosing) and don't even think about it. That might be hard, but try not to think about it at all. Then go back and read it again after said length of time. If you are still happy and comfortable with it, go for it!! I know the letter wasn't rash in any way, but may not hurt to just give it a little cooling off before you proceed.

I wish you all the best Betsey. You truly are a special person.

[Underdog]

Howdy all. WARNING: LONG POST TO FOLLOW.

Now that I've been able to eat some dinner and digest the comments, I'm wanting to tell you all that I'm willing to CONSIDER anything anyone wishes to say--bad or good.

For those of you who have been posting with me and to me for the duration, you will understand that when I say I'm fish sober and a recovering crazymaker who is actively conscious of remaining sober, I haven't said or done anything rash or impulsive in more than 9 months.

I'm REALLY proud of my accomplishments on those fronts.

Let me segue for a minute before I jump back into the pool. I had the opportunity to listen to D10 on our way to church this afternoon. She has a real beef with her choir instructor, and I would have validated her even if I didn't agree with her position. It's great experience for me to do that. But I DID agree with her.

We were discussing an issue she has with another person in choir and how her instructor chose to deal with the problem (an unclassy and tacky way, for sure). She finally looked at me and said, "Mom, I really wish you were there so you could understand. It's so hard to love someone when they don't love or like you back--or worse, if they choose not to even pretend you exist."

How could she have possibly verbalized my sentiment any better than she did?

I'm not indifferent to Mr. Wonderful and his feelings. Far from it. I don't love the man he has become, but with a lot of work and reason to do so, I would attempt it without any reservation. I'm not afraid of hard work. (And his typical M.O. is that he's not either.) I loved the man he was--the memory of a love that has kept me on this path for so long.

However, I AM indifferent to his choice to either include me in his future or not.

Over the years, it has been pointed out to me over and over again that I appear to be strong and okay with things when I am, in fact, not. Giving him the appearance that I was tough enough to continue in limbo was something friends here addressed with me earlier this year. I led him to believe I was happy with our path, when clearly I was unhappy.

Back when he moved into his 2 bedroom apartment (in January, shortly after the anniversary of his bomb), I had the "come to Jesus" phone convo with him. I let him know how fatigued I was by continuing to be the strong one. I let him know that I really wanted him to come back and be my husband and lover and to assume responsibility for raising our daughters.

He was very kind during that convo (he sent me flowers afterward, if any of you remember) and told me he was sorry for deliberately neglecting my feelings about things for so long. And he promised to begin asking himself the tough questions.

He even wrote to my parents and said he owed them and me a decision.

Well, if he posted here, I can attest to the fact that he would have plenty of posters who were willing to ask them!

After the meeting with the investigator in early March, I decided to institute Step 5 with him: asking for what I want. I was not asking for him to move home OR for a divorce. I was asking for a commitment to work on a reconciliation.

Again, he apologized for deliberately holding me hostage because he had once again put our marriage on the back burner--for future consideration.

I've asked for what I want, very specifically, twice this year. If he doesn't want to give it to me, for whatever reason, THAT is what I want to hear.

I want to know whether he is committed to reconciliation or to a divorce. He needs to be committed to something.

When I discuss choices with my D10, I take great caution in making sure that she seriously considers all the ramifications before choosing: that is, there are always consequences for the choices we make.

I enter this next chapter willingly and with my eyes wide open. I understand the risks that I am taking by putting everything out there for him to read. There is a chance that he will not give me what I really want (to commit to reconciling), but I am ready for whatever choice he feels is best for him.

Ultimately, that choice is what is best for me too. All he needs to do is make it.

If living a life without me as his wife is what he wants and needs, I will not fight him on it. If he's just plain scared of failure, well, what I plan on doing is encouraging him to contact our MC and see if he can't get the help he needs. And if he wants to commit, I really need to hear the words... now.

I have been mulling these words over for a few days now. I will wait a few more to make a decision on when to give it to him. I ALWAYS invoke the Underdog overnight rule--you guys know this.

I am not giving up on the DB process. In fact, I think I have done a decent job following the rules for over a year now. Sure, I've been in a few scrapes since then, but I consider them learning opportunities. I learned what works and what does not.

What HAS worked is my patience and flexibility. He's hinted at noticing that he's been able to exercise a whole lot more control without fear of reprisal a few times. I've Bob Barkered myself into developing a friendship with him.

He phones me at least once a day and sometimes it's just to say hi. My WAH DOES consider me a friend. But it's time for him to consider if I will be more than that or the same (because he will always be a friend by virtue of the fact that he is the father to my adorable girls).

I want what he promised me: a commitment to be here for me in sickness and health, for better or for worse, until death do us part. If he needs to break the vows he gave me, I will let him do it in peace. If he wants to continue to honor them and put forth effort into mending the hurts that are still between us, I'm obedient to God and will honor the vows I gave both of them on my wedding day.

I need to know his intentions. Otherwise, it's time to put the past to rest and to begin a new chapter for myself and by myself. A chapter that frees my mind of the clutter of the past--free of regrets, recriminations and remorse--for the promise of a future of health, happiness and spiritual fulfillment.

I'm sorry if I got carried away earlier. It was not my intention to start swinging 2x4's, hoping to hit those who do not support my decision. However, as any of our spouses will attest: I would certainly LIKE validation.

I've been actively working the DB program for over a year now. I was in IC for 10 months (before, during and after the bomb) and then in MC for 5 months with him. I've also had the wonderful opportunity to work with Laurie, the great DB coach.

I've given this process as much energy and devotion as I possibly can. It's now time to lay down the sword--since I no longer live by the sword, I don't want to die by it either.

I want words and actions from my husband. It's time to ask him for them once again. If he chooses not to give them to me, I can respect his choice. In the end, I have to look myself in the mirror every morning. I'm the one person who has to feel respect for the face that stares back at me.

I matter. I really do. And it's time I stood up for myself.

Hugs to all.

Betsey

[CMNM]

I stand firm that you owe NO ONE any explanations for what you think, feel, or write. I know you know this, but it is your kind heart that keeps you explaining and re-explaining.
You've laid it all out here. Of course, we're all entitled to our opinions, and we all know that what works in one sitch may not be the best answer in another.

It's only natural that sometimes we just want to hear what we want to hear!


I don't ever want to be humored for my opinion. Talk, discuss, work it out. We may never totally agree, but we can come to a place where we understand and respect the other's opinions. Sure, you can sometimes talk to someone, get a different opinion, and choose to change your tune and take the advice. There's nothing wrong with that, if you're doing it because it really is what is best, and you are able to admit that perhaps you were wrong.

Your sitch has been talked about, gone through, and then rehashed again. You've been more than willing to consider many things from many people. Good for you. Now you can move forward and know that you looked at things from every angle.

I'm not saying I disagree with you here. You're ready for more, and you need more. Enough said. Either you're going to get an indication that it's possible, or you're going to move on. In a perfect world you would not be in this situation. But, you are, and only you know what you can tolerate.

You've been more tolerant than anyone I know. By tolerant I mean committed to the process. NOT a derranged seal that claps over every little morsal of attention given you by your H.

GO YOU!

XOXOXOXOXOX

[MovinOn]

Betsey,

This is a wonderful post. You expressed your feelings and thoughts (as always) so well. Bets, you don't need to defend your need for knowing his intentions. I'm not behind you on this, that would be pushing you. I'm right next to you, to walk right along and listen to what you are saying. Do what you need to do.

Betsey, the one thing you did say about being the tough one, the who seemed ok with whatever came along really hit home. Maybe that is why we are in the mess.

You do matter! You are important! it's way past time for Mr.W to see that.

Pattie