Thursday 08 April: W and I see each other briefly in the evening. For some reason she is still wanting to know more about why I'm not dating, telling me it would make things a lot easier for her. She is asking me why I'm not interested in any of all the other "pretty packages" out there--I have no idea where the term pretty package came from. We are friendly, but I'm beginning to feel a little tired of repeating this convo ad nauseum. I tell her nicely but frankly that I don't want to have this conversation because she knows where I stand. On her way out the door she says she is staying at OM's (I knew this already) and she won't see me till tomorrow. And then something very strange and wonderful happens. We're both looking right into each other's eyes only about a foot apart, and we both move towards each other and kiss each other on the cheek. Yummy!!! And then she leaves. Bummer. I go out for a few hours with some friends and have a great time.
Friday 09 April: I'd taken most of Friday off from work. I get up early to clean the house because W has appraiser coming by so she can refinance. W comes home around 9, is a little surprised that I am home cleaning instead of at the office. We chat for a little while, she about OM. At some point though, I just say OK, time to clean, and I get back to cleaning. I leave shortly after the appraiser arrives because I have a lunch appointment. W is very talkative when I return. More about OM, more about her feelings for me, etcetera. I really don't know what to do except listen and validate again. We talked for quite awhile, and I was only able to get into the office for about an hour. I can't at this point remember everything that was said, and a lot of the things we talked about we've said before, but a few things stick out... --She now says she no longer fears that I would change back, she thinks I really will stay the way I've become. Rather, her fear now, is that she will never be able to forget the bad memories. She fears that the bad memories will haunt her. She said, and I think this is the very first time that she has admitted this--that she thinks that this stems from her still having some resentment and hurt. She has always maintained through the entire process that she had moved on, and didn't have any resentment. --She likes that OM is concerned about my feelings, that he respects me, how it makes him a very respectful person... yada yada. I just kept my mouth shut through all of this. Whether this is true or not just seems irrelevant to me. He is dating my wife. I don't think he's a bad person, and I don't wish him any ill will, but how respectful can you be when you've got someone else's wife sleeping at your house 3 or 4 nights a week? I don't know. --She now says that she doesn't tell OM as much about me, or what her and I do together, she doesn't share much of my personal history with him, contradicting what she has said before about this topic. (This may or may not be significant, but... I recently told W about how a couple in a marriage must draw a circle of love around the 2 of themselves, and that noone else is allowed inside the circle; that when you share intimate things with others, love leaks out of the circle... Soooo, how come she tells me SO much about OM, but is now saying that she doesn't tell him much about me? hmm.) --She made up this wonderful little analogy: she feels like she just got off of a big relationship rollercoaster with me, and she 's like wow, that ride was a scary. So now she's in the kiddie section of the park just riding the teacup ride or the merry go round. The problem she faces now she says is that I and OM both want her to ride the roller coaster again with one of us, and she's not sure if she's ready to leave the teacup ride yet. --She says that she thinks that I think that she has issues about her appearance and attractiveness. She says that she does not, she's just being realistic about her appearance. She also told me that when I say she is beautiful, she thinks it is because I am trying to make her feel better, and so she responds the way she does. She says she just accepts the compliment for what it is when she receives it from others. (It hurt to hear this.)
She was very friendly with me all day, and I got a hug (woohoo!) from her as she left to go to her parents.
I called W's cell later that night to see if she had arrived safely and got her VM. I went out with friends to a couple clubs. At one club I actually met a woman who has been separated for a month. She lives probably less than a mile away from me. She and her H were renovating an old house just like W and I. And they have similar careers to us (more and more of these twilight zone 'coincidences' keep occurring to W and I). Her H moved into an apartment, told her they had grown apart. She says she isn't dating until the S is over and they D. She was so mad when he broke the news, that she threw off and lost her wedding ring shortly afterwards. Before I left, I gave her a very innocent tiny kiss on the cheek, and told her to tell her H she had lots of cute guys hitting on her. She did and said the same to me, and we both laughed and wished each other well.
Saturday 10 April: I got quite a bit done around the house. No contact from W.
I used a few hours this weekend to review my goals, our interaction together, progress, babysteps, etcetera. It was VERY helpful for me. I can see that we continue to make progress. And I've realized that I've detached enough to feel that even if this doesn't work, I've made significant strides in repairing a relationship that was almost dead, a relationship with someone I love very very much, someone who is clearly the most important person in the world to me, and I'm glad about that.
So, here goes my updated solutions journal...
1. My near term goals --That she eats dinner with me at least three nights a week --That she spends some weekend time with me --That she helps out around the house --That there is more physical closeness between us (proximity, hugs, massage, touching, etc) --That we somehow participate in at least one activity a week --That she talks more about her feelinngs, less about divorce --That she uses more "we" statements when talking about the future
2. Doing what works, additions and revisions --Keep LISTENING, really listening! (w/o reacting, w/o defending, don't act hurt) --Avoiding her bedroom in the mornings unless she is cheery and talkative --Generally staying away from "romancy" things like candles with dinner --Be cautious about initiating PT, at least not too often. --DETACH (lovingly) more! Get a life (friends, activities). --Have FAITH! --I need to be strong, to be able to bear her burdens (when she talks about things that are hard for me to hear) --Remember that ACTIONS speak louder than words. --Let HER INITIATE more of the contact and interaction --Take care of myself (get enough sleep, don't push myself too hard, watch my health). --Be OBSERVANT, be on the lookout for babysteps and reward them somehow if possible. --Keep making home a place she wants to be (cleaning, reno projects,...)
3. Babysteps and progress, what she is doing that I appreciate (the following are occurring as of late mar / early april...) --We actually fell asleep together on her bed one night --She continues to compliment my appearance --Gave me a "new clothes fashion show" --She is doing some of her laundry now, and has done more housecleaning. --She occasionally uses we statements, like she is talking about our future together --She still lets me massage her occasionally --She has given me a few hugs --She gave me a kiss on the cheek --She has initiated several talks about her feelings, continues to open up with me --She has taken me shopping with her several times --She seems more interested in my life in general. --Has twice spent three nights in a row with me after I asked if she would spend time with me. --She said she might like to go trail running with me sometime. --She watched a DVD with me --She ate lunch out in public with me --She rubbed my back when I had a muscle spasm. --She admits that we do share a connection (somehow communicative/emotional) --We've had a few instance of lying down on the couch together. --She's admitted that she shares some ofthe responsibility for our M falling apart. --Told me she doesn't think I'll go back to the way I was.
4. Longer term goals --That she would say that she is interested in talking about how our marriage could work. --That she would say or imply that there is more of a chance for our marriage. --That she would say that she is going to stop dating and stop seeing OM as an option for her. --That she would want to be physically intimate with me again. --That she would say that she would like to focus on us and our marriage. --That she would ask for us to sleep in the same bed again. --That she would want to re-commit to our marriage.
renew-wow, sounds like you had a very, very productive weekend. There are so many positives in your goals. Just thought I would share this with you...when I was with OM, I neve told him anything about my H or what we did together. This was OM was in my life, but not really in my life, I wasn't sharing with him. and I did this because I still love h. Again, every time I read that she speaks to you about seeing OM and you take it in stride, I really, really respect you for that. and what you did with the lady you met in the bar--very cool!
Repeat aloud to self: "I must not pursue, I must detach, I must be more patient."
The rollercoaster goes up, and down, and through a loop-de-loop hairpin turn...
Sunday 11 April... W called me me on her way home from her parents and we talk for over half and hour about our weekends. We have a very pleasant conversation. She ends the conversation by telling me how OM has asked to see her tonight because he hasn't seen her in a few days and he is going to be very busy this week. So she is going to see OM tonight after she drops her suitcase off at the house. I say ok, I guess I'll see you later this week. She starts to say something about this and then her phone cuts out. I call her back and she picks up and can't remember what she was saying. I tell her I'll see her when she gets home.
When she comes home I pause the movie I am watching, and help her bring in her bags. I walk upstairs with her--she is freshening up her makeup and changing her clothes. I tell her I may be having a few friends over for brunch next Sunday, and that I'd like it if she could come but understand if she can't. I also ask her if she'd like to go trail running sometime soon. I realize now I was pursuing. She starts into us again.
She tells me I am completely different from how I used to be. She says "it may not seem like it to you, but you are very very different, and it's very good and all, but it freaks me out sometimes, because I look at you and I'm looking at this person who basically didn't care about me at all for five years, and it's like he's someone else now, it's almost like he's been possessed. You may have always felt like you do now, but its only in the last few months that you're behavior has shown it" And she says, "You are too focused on me, and on doing things for me, it's not healthy, you should be out doing things on your own without me, you need to make sure you're doing what you want to be doing, and I don't want to feel obligated, like you expect something from me, like you expect us to get back together, its pushing me away."
I remind her again that I'm doing this for me, I've already made my choices and am happy with them, that I want a healthy relationship, and if its not with her, if its with someone else, then that's how it is. I also tell her that she already knows that I don't want a D, that I love her, I want to be married to her, I think we can work it out, but that I'm ok with whatever she feels she needs to do to be happy, and I don't want to pressure her, I don't feel like I need to repeat that I am fine doing what I am doing. I tell her I will try to be around less. I even tell her we've been having way too many talks about us lately.
After listening to me say these things, she tells me that its all a little wierd for her, sometimes too intense, and would it be possible that she could go to one of my IC sessions with me so we could talk to him together, see what he has to see about couples that are separated but live together. (I'm a little taken aback by this, and rather skeptical too, she seems to think it would benefit me for her to attend, but) I tell her I'll talk to him and see what he thinks about it. On her way out the door, I ask her if maybe we just need a little help learning how to get along better (not what I meant to say but that's what came out of my mouth). She says that's not what she means. I say it might be helpful for my IC when I call him if she were able to tell me what she would like to get out of the session. She says ok, let's talk about it tomorrow.
Whoa. So, yes, I was probably pursuing and clingy when she came in. I messed up, I don't know why I can't seem to stick to the rules all the time. I really hope this didn't cost me too much. But WTF with her wanting to go to one of my IC sessions? On the one hand it scares me, because she really skinned me alive in our MC sessions. On the other hand, it could turn out to be a beneficial thing. I'm feeling kind of like it might be worth it to take the risk, but I plan to ask my IC about it before making any decisions. And about the pushing her away comment... why would she actually come out and tell me this? It kind of threw me.
yes you have to back off a bit and detach. I COMPLETELY understand when she talks about OM and you want to jump in and be there with her instead.
Quote: I remind her again that I'm doing this for me, I've already made my choices and am happy with them, that I want a healthy relationship, and if its not with her, if its with someone else, then that's how it is. I also tell her that she already knows that I don't want a D, that I love her, I want to be married to her, I think we can work it out, but that I'm ok with whatever she feels she needs to do to be happy, and I don't want to pressure her, I don't feel like I need to repeat that I am fine doing what I am doing. I tell her I will try to be around less. I even tell her we've been having way too many talks about us lately.
Good speech - that is one of the ky points of DB. You are doing this for you, to make SOME relationship, with W or someone else better. That is all she needs to know.
Quote:
Whoa. So, yes, I was probably pursuing and clingy when she came in. I messed up, I don't know why I can't seem to stick to the rules all the time. I really hope this didn't cost me too much. But WTF with her wanting to go to one of my IC sessions? On the one hand it scares me, because she really skinned me alive in our MC sessions. On the other hand, it could turn out to be a beneficial thing. I'm feeling kind of like it might be worth it to take the risk, but I plan to ask my IC about it before making any decisions. And about the pushing her away comment... why would she actually come out and tell me this? It kind of threw me.
She's telling you this because it's the truth - persuit when it's not wanted drives them away. Pressure drives them away. Stop doing it.
Dont be afraid of the MC session - ANY talking by her, esp with a third party who can mediate and draw out issues is a GOOD THING. My W has talked about possibly going back with me occasionally. I'm dying for it to happen; the last session we had together she left manic, and I left in tears. Communication is a good thing.
You're seeing baby steps - dont jump the gun.
Bill.
"you are who you chose to be" - Iron Giant
Link To CURRENT Sitch
Quote: She tells me I am completely different from how I used to be. She says "it may not seem like it to you, but you are very very different, and it's very good and all, but it freaks me out sometimes, because I look at you and I'm looking at this person who basically didn't care about me at all for five years, and it's like he's someone else now, it's almost like he's been possessed. You may have always felt like you do now, but its only in the last few months that you're behavior has shown it" And she says, "You are too focused on me, and on doing things for me, it's not healthy, you should be out doing things on your own without me, you need to make sure you're doing what you want to be doing, and I don't want to feel obligated, like you expect something from me, like you expect us to get back together, its pushing me away."
hey renew-
You are close! Just need a little fine-tuning! Key points about how DB is working here and where you can improve.....she's believing your changes, still not sure- this one just needs time to kick in. You've seen her attitude change because of how you act by now. Isn't it great to start seeing results! Keep up your changes and watch her get even warmer toward you over time.
The part about feeling pressured shows you need to pull back more. That's great W is so open and in touch w. her feelings to be able to vocalize that to you. Many S's just feel pressured, but wouldn't know how to express it directly, and just run away. IMHO, chill out on asking her to do things. That's the pressure part. Asking her for what you want, rather than following her flow. Think it's almost worth a trial of a week or two when you don't ask her to do anything. May be suprised how great it works, since she's starting to be at a point where she is feeling more towards you again. And since you're seeing her everyday, having dinner here and there, watching tv, etc..(that already IS you "doing things" together- just secretly know that. Living w. someone for a period of time, and having been intimate, that's the closest R a person can have- know that you are #1, regardless of OM or whatever she says.) I haven't been asking my H to do things, do things on my own with other people, and then he asks ME to do things- it's the sweet spot of DB. Like right now, W is oversaturated with offers to do things, if that disappears, W will likely miss it- and reach out to you. Esp when the "new you" is so attractive! I definitely agree on avoiding R talks too. If she brings stuff up, validate briefly and then maybe change topic casually.
Hey are you on IM at all? If you ever want to chat, I've got yahoo messenger- robinsmiles2000. Keep it up! Your sitch is definitely improving!
Master the self-fulfilling prophecy.. Act 'as if' it's going to happen and make it be!!
Bill, Rj2, thanks for the support. There have been days lately when I've felt so detached, and then somehow she pulls me right in. All she has to do is look me deep in the eyes and start talking and I just melt, my resolve starts to slip, and I forget the situation we're in right now.
We slipped into another R talk last night because the counseling thing came up. Next thing you know we're talking for three hours, some very heartfelt stuff too. She still denies any chance of reconciliation, but she was really open, telling me things about her feelings she'd denied to me until recently. I told her I was concerned whether these frequent R talks were helping us, and she said they were helpful to her; but she was in tears at one point, and it pains me deeply to see her hurt so much. It's taken me a long time to forgive myself for how much pain I caused her. A little pulling back is probably good for both of us right now.
Quote: Living w. someone for a period of time, and having been intimate, that's the closest R a person can have
You are so right about this, thank you for reminding me.
P A T I E N C E D E T A C H M E N T V A L I D A T I O N
I'M BACK. just when u though u got rid of me. renew, or have you chosen chandler or ross? it continues to amaze me how much progress you gain everyday.
has she always been so open in talking? like is she verbally expressive about her feelings to everyone? her talking with you so much is very huge.
when she is talking about her feelings are they negative venting things and you validate? just curious. i wish my w was as receptive to talking as yours. she really trusts you. i think mine trusts me too, but she chooses to build up more walls. i think your walls are coming down.
